Date   
uBitx PA bias input voltage

Drew
 

Mr. Farhan or others on this group, 

When performing the tune up procedures, specifically setting the PA bias, what power supply voltage should I be using?  I noticed that if I use 12 volts my fully counter clockwise PTT depressed no speaking amps were about 320ma and when running 13.8v I was at about 450ma.  Am I trying to achieve between 670 ma and 700 ma regardless of power supply voltage or am I trying to achieve 200ma above my initial reading?

I sincerely appreciate any assistance and I apologise if this question has already been addressed.

Drew Miller
KK4UPC

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Diver Martin <diver.martin@...>
 

Bill, 7 Amps?  Can't say I've used a relay that beefy.  I'm using IM43 latching relays in my tuner.  They're about a buck 50 a pop in volume.  I tune at 1W, transmit at 50W. https://www.onlinecomponents.com/te-connectivity-p-b-brand-im43gr.html?p=12106673

I am still pondering making my motherboard add-on.  But I"m sure the way I roll it'll be pricier than $40 fully assembled.  Significantly, but then I'd be replacing the raduino completely too, adding DDS spots, and other stuff.

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:44 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 




--
Martin Held - AE7EU
http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

bill richardson
 

I’m a hiker and like to operate in the field so I would want something that has the lowest current draw. I normally don’t need to tune more than a few times if doing a SOTA so not sure if it would be a big deal? On a long multi-day hike it would be a different story. Not sure if we can meet in the middle on cost vs current draw?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2017, at 3:44 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! <image001.gif>

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 

Re: heat sink

Diver Martin <diver.martin@...>
 

The IRF510's have the tab as drain, which is the RF output.  I have two IRF530's in my amplifier design on one heatsink that is grounded, have not had any issues.  You actually sometimes want a little capacitive loading on the drains sometimes to reduce the high frequency harmonics that an amplifier like this is liable to generate.

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:
at the low impedance levels we're talking aobut it probably won't matter, but they each will have some capacitance to the heatsink presuming it is grounded and not floaating  (and that they are insulated)

In the picofarad range probably.

gordon
________________________________________
From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Vince Vielhaber <vev@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:21 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] heat sink

As long as they're insulated from the heat sink, yes.  If not, no.

Vince.


On 12/31/2017 01:20 PM, rf200655 wrote:
> Can both of finals be on same heatsink ?
>
> Thanks Ray
> KC4DYM
>

--
   Michigan VHF Corp.   https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nobucks.net_&d=DwICaQ&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=3ELgZgmTnPzGsfvQxkd1S_2NGLYM8sHTxVCQKFxhVXQ&m=2Lj6gbVI-AVkKIEwpezDp6PghcK_xvxdSBbJn4Rrj1s&s=SaoJTvZgq8FkKC6ZfU8AF-rhdD1XuEkXiliANyTCfQQ&e=    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.CDupe.com_&d=DwICaQ&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=3ELgZgmTnPzGsfvQxkd1S_2NGLYM8sHTxVCQKFxhVXQ&m=2Lj6gbVI-AVkKIEwpezDp6PghcK_xvxdSBbJn4Rrj1s&s=_cMyp31AWVsn6vGtVMFpgqbVrm7NPbjwhFqkUKiCW9Q&e=
                           https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.metalworkingfun.com&d=DwICaQ&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=3ELgZgmTnPzGsfvQxkd1S_2NGLYM8sHTxVCQKFxhVXQ&m=2Lj6gbVI-AVkKIEwpezDp6PghcK_xvxdSBbJn4Rrj1s&s=gs6Pa-ZzB4aHT3tlWBSKAsMNfqsWbYX7fNDoUq2CGak&e=









--
Martin Held - AE7EU
http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

D. Daniel McGlothin KB3MUN
 

It is a kit, right?

Give me both choices.  That is, sell the kit with the constant current draw relays, but design the board alternately accommodate the latching relay footprint.  Then I as the kit builder can buy the latching relays and fit them if that is my need.  Just don't forget to tell me which relay model you designed the board for.

Daniel KB3MUN



On 12/31/2017 15:44, K9HZ wrote:

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).


  

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

M Garza <mgarza896@...>
 

Or provide the latching relays as an option.

Marco - KG5PRT 

On Dec 31, 2017 3:12 PM, "D. Daniel McGlothin KB3MUN" <kb3mun@...> wrote:
It is a kit, right?

Give me both choices.  That is, sell the kit with the constant current draw relays, but design the board alternately accommodate the latching relay footprint.  Then I as the kit builder can buy the latching relays and fit them if that is my need.  Just don't forget to tell me which relay model you designed the board for.

Daniel KB3MUN



On 12/31/2017 15:44, K9HZ wrote:

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).


  

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Jerry Gaffke
 

ALE and Winlink are looking like prime candidates for that EFHW-8010 from myantennas.com.

There are cases where an automatic tuner is needed, operating mobile is a good example.
A G5RV antenna with open wire transmission line all the way into a tuner is a great multiband system,
but as Gordon points out it may be problematic if continuously jumping bands for receive.
An antenna farm with bunches of rotatable beams will definitely outperform an EFHW.
But if you are willing to take pot-luck on where the lobes of the radiation pattern fall on the upper bands,
a well designed EFHW is hard to beat.

Jerry, KE7ER


On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 11:34 am, Gordon Gibby wrote:

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....

Re: heat sink

Jerry Gaffke
 

The impedance of a capacitor is 1/(2*pi*freq*C)
At 30mhz, a 100pf capacitor will have an impedance of 1/(2*3..14*30e6*100e-12) = 53 ohms.
The output transformer at the IRF510 drain has a 1 to 4 impedance ratio, so the drains see an impedance of 50/4 = 12.5 ohms.
So you could have significant capacitance at the drain before it loads down a 30mhz signal by very much.


On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 01:11 pm, Diver Martin wrote:
The IRF510's have the tab as drain, which is the RF output.  I have two IRF530's in my amplifier design on one heatsink that is grounded, have not had any issues.  You actually sometimes want a little capacitive loading on the drains sometimes to reduce the high frequency harmonics that an amplifier like this is liable to generate.
 

Re: Looking for NOS or Pull with good leads 130 Ohm 3w

 

Rich,

 Mine is completed at this point thank you for the offer.

I am going to look at either speeding up the key up on the COR or make a bypass switch for a foot switch, its just a hair to slow for my liking.

 

Andy,

 Only fear I have with CC amps is they are pretty basic and sometimes very dirty amps and tend to need some mods to run "right". I have a SB-200 that I have to finish rebuilding and I will have 500W-1KW. I just wanted a little amp for my qrp rigs to have a touch more power. I tested it on all bands and lowest I get is about 10W on 10m, 20-30W on 20m, 40m I get about 30-40W and on 160/80m I get almost 50W. I am running on 24V not 28V so considering that its working top notch.

73

  David.

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

 

I would love a kit and would be happy to test as well. I have some time on my hands for the next few years so building could be an option for me as well.

 

 GL with the project

73

  David

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

K9HZ <bill@...>
 

Well make a simple DC calculation for a 2 ohm antenna at 100 watts and see what you get…  I get 7 amps plus.  I build for worst case so it doesn’t break and come back.  The worst think that can happen is to under-design, sell a product, have people use it and be disappointed because it fails when they need it to work.  I’m really tired of products that are built that way… and there are a lot of them.  I spend most of my weekends fixing other people’s bad design with products around my house and had enough of it.  Pool stuff appears to be the weakest.  Cars are not far behind.  Seems like there is always a battery to replace every weekend too.  Sorry… \\endrant.

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Diver Martin
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:08 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Bill, 7 Amps?  Can't say I've used a relay that beefy.  I'm using IM43 latching relays in my tuner.  They're about a buck 50 a pop in volume.  I tune at 1W, transmit at 50W. https://www.onlinecomponents.com/te-connectivity-p-b-brand-im43gr.html?p=12106673

 

I am still pondering making my motherboard add-on.  But I"m sure the way I roll it'll be pricier than $40 fully assembled.  Significantly, but then I'd be replacing the raduino completely too, adding DDS spots, and other stuff.

 

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:44 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 



 

--

Martin Held - AE7EU

http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

K9HZ <bill@...>
 

Looking into that… same board but populated with a different relay.  I think it’s doable, but It could make the base case kit more expensive… because the cheap (but very adequate) non-latching relays I use don’t have latching counter parts.  I have a friend in the Electronic Parts Sales business at a major distributor… he may be able to find something that works for us.

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of M Garza
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:13 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Or provide the latching relays as an option.

 

Marco - KG5PRT 

 




 

Re: Small question about LCD mounting

sulu82@...
 

Finally , I learnt how to apply decals correctly.Thanks again.

Re: Got Mine Built #ubitx

sulu82@...
 

Nice looking case.
Please spell check "transceiver".Just a small correction.:)

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Diver Martin <diver.martin@...>
 

Ah, you're designing for 100W and some pretty low impedances.  I'm not designing for that much power / mismatch I guess :)  10ohms, 50W, which is close enough for me and can still tune an SWR of 5:1, and my real goal is 3:1.  For a uBitx at 10W output drive, you could use significantly less current rating imho.

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 1:46 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Well make a simple DC calculation for a 2 ohm antenna at 100 watts and see what you get…  I get 7 amps plus.  I build for worst case so it doesn’t break and come back.  The worst think that can happen is to under-design, sell a product, have people use it and be disappointed because it fails when they need it to work.  I’m really tired of products that are built that way… and there are a lot of them.  I spend most of my weekends fixing other people’s bad design with products around my house and had enough of it.  Pool stuff appears to be the weakest.  Cars are not far behind.  Seems like there is always a battery to replace every weekend too.  Sorry… \\endrant.

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Diver Martin
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:08 PM


To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Bill, 7 Amps?  Can't say I've used a relay that beefy.  I'm using IM43 latching relays in my tuner.  They're about a buck 50 a pop in volume.  I tune at 1W, transmit at 50W. https://www.onlinecomponents.com/te-connectivity-p-b-brand-im43gr.html?p=12106673

 

I am still pondering making my motherboard add-on.  But I"m sure the way I roll it'll be pricier than $40 fully assembled.  Significantly, but then I'd be replacing the raduino completely too, adding DDS spots, and other stuff.

 

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:44 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

 

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

 

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

 

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for $0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the $30-$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the $4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL $65 !!! 

 

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is $65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Hi,  

 

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

 

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

 

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.   

 

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

 

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

 

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

 

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

 

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

 

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

 

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

 

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

 

Gordon

 



 

--

Martin Held - AE7EU

http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?




--
Martin Held - AE7EU
http://ae7eu.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there aren't any questions, then what is there to learn?

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Mike Woods
 

I have been following this thread with interest ... I think latching relays are the way to go, but certainly cost is also important and higher amperage latching relays are not so cheap.

I have been pondering for a while about combining an automatic antenna tuner and antenna switching device.  Settings for both are dependent on frequency,  but the two interplay.  Changing antenna changes the optimal match.

Outputting the frequency from the Bitx arduino should result in preselection of relays associated with previously confirmed optimal settings by frequency and antenna.  This could potentially allow relay selection by to meet the 1/5 second target for ALE as even latching relays can stabilize in about 50ms.

The other essential is a TX inhibit so that relays do not change state with a carrier present,  that is, if you want them to last a few years ...

Mike ZL1AXG


On Mon, 1 Jan 2018 at 10:53 AM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:

Looking into that… same board but populated with a different relay.  I think it’s doable, but It could make the base case kit more expensive… because the cheap (but very adequate) non-latching relays I use don’t have latching counter parts.  I have a friend in the Electronic Parts Sales business at a major distributor… he may be able to find something that works for us.

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

Like us on Facebook!

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of M Garza
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:13 PM


To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

Or provide the latching relays as an option.

 

Marco - KG5PRT 

 




 

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Dr Fred Hambrecht
 

I am available as a Beta tester as well.

 

v/r

Fred W4JLE

 

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Paul Schumacher via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 15:43
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

I am willing to beta test.

 

Paul K0ZYV

 


From: Steve Black via Groups.Io <kb1chu@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

 

On 12/31/2017 11:26 AM, K9HZ wrote:

Well my company will manufacture the tuner, but i will need a bunch of beta testers to work any bugs out.  

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

 

email:  bill@...

 


On Dec 31, 2017, at 8:10 AM, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:

​If you guys make this happen, I'm going to be rather amazed.   Even if it merely does a clunky search search search algorithm in the beginning......

 

It can later do the intellituner thing with the smith chart type calculations.   

 

I'm able to actuate my MFJ 993B intellituner easily on 80 meters and usually on 40 and sometimes higher with my uBitx running just 12 volts to the finals and doing digital.   But that thing was about $270...........

 

As Ashhar pointed out....someone should form a company.   Crowd-fund it if you wish.    Get printed circuit boards.  (I even learned how to do that!)   think about how to make sure it works for every possible mode & application.....

 

For scanning systems like WINLINK, it would be wonderful if it could move to memory positions on RECEIVE (which means the VFO has to output something, or you have to use a frequency counter to watch it)

 

For ALE, the freuqncy changes are TOO FAST to follow with relays.

 

Cheers.

gordon

 

 


From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:55 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for $3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

 

Jack, W8TEE

 


From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

 

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN




On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:

So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about $30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!    

 

 

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

 

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

 

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Like us on Facebook! facebook icon

 

 

email:  bill@...

 

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

 

Good pickups!

 

So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:

 

1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap. 

 

2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for $100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire. 

 

3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.   

 

4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to $100

 

5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.

 

6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters

 

 

And there are probably many more....

 

Gordon


From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

 

An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.

 

 

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com

 

 

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Glenn
 

My 1st post. Have a look at the K3NG ATU (Google K3NG TUNER). While he designed it as a balanced tuner, I have built an unbalanced version for around 20W or so. Using standard footprint 'cheap' relays. Actually the relays are the bugbear of an ATU, finding the right type and rating and low cost, since in this example there are 18 relays. From what I can see, latched relays are very expensive especially when you need 18. The trade-off is current draw, as per some posts here.

I used AD8307 Log detector chips in the SWR section. Caps used were 3kV rated 1812 sized smd although available in VK, might be harder to find in USA.

K3NG uses an Arduino NANO and a simple 2 line LCD module.  To keep size down, one of the 0.96" OLED displays might be a candidate.

glenn
vk3pe

Bandwidth

John 2e0eii
 

Hi all
do we know the band width of the bitx40 v3 ,and is it possible to alter,

rgds John 2e0eii

Re: Bandwidth

Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...>
 

​Don't know an exact number,mayber 2.2-2.5 kHz.   much wider than the bitx40 I think.




From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of John 2e0eii <2e0eii@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 6:02 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: [BITX20] Bandwidth
 

Hi all
do we know the band width of the bitx40 v3 ,and is it possible to alter,

rgds John 2e0eii