uBitx PA bias input voltage

Drew

Mr. Farhan or others on this group,

When performing the tune up procedures, specifically setting the PA bias, what power supply voltage should I be using?  I noticed that if I use 12 volts my fully counter clockwise PTT depressed no speaking amps were about 320ma and when running 13.8v I was at about 450ma.  Am I trying to achieve between 670 ma and 700 ma regardless of power supply voltage or am I trying to achieve 200ma above my initial reading?

I sincerely appreciate any assistance and I apologise if this question has already been addressed.

Drew Miller
KK4UPC

Re: ubitx circuit, wiring, source code on github

Jerry Gaffke

Gordon, I think you're right.

Part of what triggered me to think the github archive was out of date was mention of using
an AM broadcast as per post 35235 in the calibration instructions at   http://www.hfsignals.com/index.php/ubitx-tuneup/
And I still wasn't quite fully understanding post 35241.

As I dig deeper, am thinking the github code will do as per the calibration instructions.
All three Si5351 clocks do get updated with each step of the calibration process.
They are are all scaled by the same vcoa calibration factor.

I think the code could be made simpler and easier to understand,
Just repeatedly twiddle the value of si5351bx_vcoa and call si5351bx_setfreq()  for each of the three clocks.
Could set it to an accuracy of well under 1hz across the dial.  Till the temperature changes by a fraction of a degree.

One possible issue with the current calibration scheme is that it apparently moves vcoa by leaps of 8750hz, or 10ppm.
So the 57mhz clk1 moves in steps of 570hz with each step when calibrating?
Though that is mostly canceled out by the VFO moving in the same direction by roughly the same amount
if you are calibrating from a received signal in the general neighborhood of 12mhz when in USB mode.
So WWV at 10mhz or a ham friend at 7.050mhz should allow for moderately accurate calibration,
down around 10 or 20 hz.

Guess I'd better start playing with some hardware, see if I'm right about how this works.
Will proceed, assuming the github archive is current.

Jerry, KE7ER

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 11:14 am, Gordon Gibby wrote:

2.  User calibration, accessed through normal usage of the encoder push button, where he seems to work at keeping you tuned into a friend as you fix your frequency display (adjusting internally both oscillators in compensatory ways?) and then separately set the BFO to desired portion of the skirt..

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

K9HZ <bill@...>

Not sure I fully understand this WINLKNK and ALE stuff yet, but in “memory mode” where the Raduino passes the Tunerino (huh, new word coined here! “Tunerino”) the new operating frequency, the tuner can use stored past operating parameters to start from… and if you continue to use the same antenna… it probably will not engage the tuning routines (depending on the match on transmit…for receive it won’t make much of a difference).  In this case, the tuner can react faster than the radio.  If there is transmission and mismatch from the last transmission on that frequency, it starts from current position and may just need to slightly adjust…just a step or two.  I would recommend this mode for your fixed antennas at your house… but not for something you take camping, on field day, or where the antenna changes frequently.

<< Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....>>  Unless you pass frequency data… then it can operate in memory mode and be extremely

efficient.

<< it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing>>  Yep… that’s the plan, man… smart tuners all work this way today.

<<I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be cheaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!>>  Well this is my current dilemma.  I can buy good quality relays that will work for this project for \$0.39 each (need to be a minimum of 7 amps).  Using 18 of them, I can keep the cost of the kit in the \$30-\$40 range as originally discussed.  Latching relays of the same specifications are in the \$4 each range… making the total cost jump up an ADDITIONAL \$65 !!!

Now my question to the group is this…  would you rather have a very functional tuner but draws additional constant current…. Or a tuner that draws very little current once tuned but is \$65 more expensive?  I don’t do too much battery operation myself… but I am sensitive to those who do.  If every relay were engaged (not likely) it would draw 1.2 amps total (60ma each).

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  bill@...

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:35 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

Hi,

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

Gordon

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Paul Schumacher

I am willing to beta test.

Paul K0ZYV

From: Steve Black via Groups.Io <kb1chu@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

On 12/31/2017 11:26 AM, K9HZ wrote:
Well my company will manufacture the tuner, but i will need a bunch of beta testers to work any bugs out.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

email:  bill@...

On Dec 31, 2017, at 8:10 AM, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:

​If you guys make this happen, I'm going to be rather amazed.   Even if it merely does a clunky search search search algorithm in the beginning......

It can later do the intellituner thing with the smith chart type calculations.

I'm able to actuate my MFJ 993B intellituner easily on 80 meters and usually on 40 and sometimes higher with my uBitx running just 12 volts to the finals and doing digital.   But that thing was about \$270...........

As Ashhar pointed out....someone should form a company.   Crowd-fund it if you wish.    Get printed circuit boards.  (I even learned how to do that!)   think about how to make sure it works for every possible mode & application.....

For scanning systems like WINLINK, it would be wonderful if it could move to memory positions on RECEIVE (which means the VFO has to output something, or you have to use a frequency counter to watch it)

For ALE, the freuqncy changes are TOO FAST to follow with relays.

Cheers.
gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:55 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for \$3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

Jack, W8TEE

From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN

On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:
So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about \$30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

email:  bill@...

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

Good pickups!

So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:

1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap.

2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for \$100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire.

3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.

4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to \$100

5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.

6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters

And there are probably many more....

Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.

 Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Don VE3IDS

I am very interested in a kit as well and possibly as a builder up here in ve3. Please add me to your list.
Thanks and 73
Don ve3ids

Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...>

I looked at the datasheets and the transconductance (change in drain current per change in gate voltage) seems unaffected by drain voltage, so the power increase would be proportional to voltage increase.   I think I've got a 19V laptop supply and maybe a 24V so may try this (gingerly).

I haven't tried this yet, but is the decline in output at higher bands mainly due to decreasing drive effectiveness?   If so, cranking up the drive potentiometer for higher hands might give more output....

and for the server applications, WINLINK actually provdided a way for the audio drive to be set for each band, so it could be compensatorially reduced on lower bands, allowing the bitx to be more successful across several bands.

It is still a less than mighty transmitter.

digital connections such as psk,  olivia,  ft8  etc are made for such transmitters!   And this time of the cycle, 80 and 40 meters are king at night.

gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 9:49 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

​I think you'll get about double the power when you double the voltage.   Not certain, but I think the transconductance of the device is possibly constant and so changing the voltage linearly increases the power.

The power will still drop off at higher frequencies.

Remember the two heatsinks of the uBit are both at the same DC potential but NOT at the same AC potential

gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of tausciam@... <tausciam@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 9:44 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 06:36 pm, Gordon Gibby wrote:
ext move will be to go up to 19 or 24 vdc on the PA.
What is the expected wattage out when you do that?

I'm beginning to suspect it'll be far more robust as a winlink device than PC ALE, but at least we now know it CAN do that.

Re: Looking for NOS or Pull with good leads 130 Ohm 3w

Richard Andrew Knack

I'm building that amp, too. I MIGHT have a spare 3W resistor. Give me a few days to check. I bought mine online but I can't remember exactly where.

Rich

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 8:26 PM, N8DAH
<Dherron@...> wrote:

Hey guys I'm building a WA2EBY amp and want to put the 5W pad on it for 5w drive to 1w but am missing one part....

130 Ohm carbon comp 3w resistor

Any help would be great ....I am happy to pay for shipping and the part....I have looked everywhere all I can find is 3x 390 Ohm 1w but I don't think I can get them to fit.....

Help!

73

David

N8DAH

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...>

Hi,

WINLINK and ALE are two different animals.

Both scan frequencies on multiple bands constantly.   WINLINK scan each frequency for 3-6 seconds depending on which modes are to be  detected.   ALE scans each frequency for 1, 1/2 or 1/5 second depending on operator preference (I think).   1 second is OK, 1/2 second is considered good and 1/5 second speed is considered excellent.

For both systems, the "crude" solution is simply not to tune until there is actually transmission occurring.

I *think* for ALE it is a more constant power, just moving between 8 tones (but not sure about that yet)

For WININK it can be a mess, with multiple different protocols being transmitted.   I've watched LDG tuners iterate throughout the entire 10 second call and still not be matched because they keep being thrown for a loop by all the changing amplitudes etc.

Once a setting is memorized, tuners seem to do MUCH better for both.

Both systems however spend MOST of their time SCANNING and hence they are changing  bands but there is no transmitted energy so the automated tuner has no idea what is going on.....

This leads to less-than-optimal energy reaching the receiver at times.....Winlink sometimes implments a venerable soution of just tuning for the HIGHEST band and leaving it there while they do receiver scanning until next needed.

it would be brighter for both systems if some means of RFI-impervious connection between the transceiver and the tuner allowed it to know when receive frequency was changing.   However, this might lead to a HUGE number of relay clicks particularly for ALE at fast scan  rates, and this might be prohibitive for long term reliability.   WINLINK's slow scan rate might make it workable.

FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY NEED THAT RECEIVE ADJUSTMENT CAPABILITY however --- so it may not be commercially viable.   There are maybe 50 server stations for winlink in the US and I don't know how many ALE users are actually ever active.

OK....that may be far more than you wanted to know, but understanding the user-issues always seemed important to me in product development.

I'm suspecting that there are far fewer people who want the lowest current drain for battery usage....and far more who would appreciate lower cost and are willing to provide power for relays where needed.....but this is just a guess.   I haven't watched to see what kind of relays are used in the MFJ and LDG products but their gear is commercially successfulll.....just pricey.​   Relays must be chaper than variable capacitors and servo motors!

Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of K9HZ <bill@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:23 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

I’ve never done winlink ALE so I don’t know the requirements… but if someone would care to enlighten me on what they would be and how it impacts the tuner I’d be happy to look into it…

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  bill@...

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of KN4GUY JOHN DEJARNETTE
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 12:46 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

Dr Schmidt

I am very interested in the kit.

As a new ham I get a lot of enjoyment from assembling kits and tinkering.

The Bitx makes it affordable and easy to learn.

An antenna tuner that can accommodate winlink ALE would be great!

John

KN4GUY

Re: Looking for NOS or Pull with good leads 130 Ohm 3w

AndyH

As for an under \$300 follow-on to the WA2EBY project, how about the EB63A?  It's also reported to be a very straightforward assembly project.
http://www.communication-concepts.com/eb63a-140w-hf-amplifier/
http://soldersmoke.blogspot.com/2014/11/oh-no-soldersmoke-goes-qro-bills.html

Cheers,
Andy

On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 01:31 pm, N8DAH wrote:

Nice that was the plan to have a good solid amp not in the 300\$+ price range. I had a Hardrock 50 w/o the atu, it was a 1st run version and needed a lot of mods to run any of the new parts. Plus it was a bit more "tech" than I felt was needed. Not to mention I know who built this WA2EBY and who to blame if it fails hihi as well as how it works.

73

David

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

K9HZ <bill@...>

I’ve never done winlink ALE so I don’t know the requirements… but if someone would care to enlighten me on what they would be and how it impacts the tuner I’d be happy to look into it…

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  bill@...

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of KN4GUY JOHN DEJARNETTE
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 12:46 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

Dr Schmidt

I am very interested in the kit.

As a new ham I get a lot of enjoyment from assembling kits and tinkering.

The Bitx makes it affordable and easy to learn.

An antenna tuner that can accommodate winlink ALE would be great!

John

KN4GUY

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Rick S

Also interested in the ATU kit.   Please add me to the list.

Rick
ND4F

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:
The hardware is conceptually on but the implementation is a mess.  Not really the way i like to have my RF projects go.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  bill@...

On Dec 31, 2017, at 9:27 AM, M Garza <mgarza896@...> wrote:

There are several tuner projects based on Arduino.  Here is one.
You can find schematics for almost all the major vendors out there.  The setup / hardware is basically all the same.

The hardware does not seem difficult.  The L match seems to be the most common.  I would use latching relays, so it could use very low power when not tuning, like the Elecraft T1 tuner.  The magic would be in the programming of the tuning subroutines.

Marco - KG5PRT

On Dec 31, 2017 8:42 AM, "Rod Self" <km6sn@...> wrote:
Hi All,

some time ago I built a single-ended version of Farhan's tuner shown here:

http://hfsignals.blogspot.com/2015/06/a-balanced-tuner.html

It is a basic L network with binary-weighted C and L values, switchable to either Hi or Low Z.

My operational impressions:

1. It is amazingly simple to tune up to an unknown load, and

2. even when the impedance mismatch is severe, switching in another tap of L or C shows easily-readable improvement in reflected voltage, which

3. gives a useful clue as to what to switch next, and

4. it is probably not necessary to use reflected voltage and phase readings- reflected voltage is probably sufficient, and

5. it would be simple to relay drive it and use a Nano to tune it.

So, I decided that when I got around-to-it, I would  automate it with a Nano. It just has not happened yet.

Just some operational feedback.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

K9HZ <bill@...>

The hardware is conceptually on but the implementation is a mess.  Not really the way i like to have my RF projects go.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  bill@...

On Dec 31, 2017, at 9:27 AM, M Garza <mgarza896@...> wrote:

There are several tuner projects based on Arduino.  Here is one.
You can find schematics for almost all the major vendors out there.  The setup / hardware is basically all the same.

The hardware does not seem difficult.  The L match seems to be the most common.  I would use latching relays, so it could use very low power when not tuning, like the Elecraft T1 tuner.  The magic would be in the programming of the tuning subroutines.

Marco - KG5PRT

On Dec 31, 2017 8:42 AM, "Rod Self" <km6sn@...> wrote:
Hi All,

some time ago I built a single-ended version of Farhan's tuner shown here:

http://hfsignals.blogspot.com/2015/06/a-balanced-tuner.html

It is a basic L network with binary-weighted C and L values, switchable to either Hi or Low Z.

My operational impressions:

1. It is amazingly simple to tune up to an unknown load, and

2. even when the impedance mismatch is severe, switching in another tap of L or C shows easily-readable improvement in reflected voltage, which

3. gives a useful clue as to what to switch next, and

4. it is probably not necessary to use reflected voltage and phase readings- reflected voltage is probably sufficient, and

5. it would be simple to relay drive it and use a Nano to tune it.

So, I decided that when I got around-to-it, I would  automate it with a Nano. It just has not happened yet.

Just some operational feedback.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

K9HZ <bill@...>

Im thinking just as a kit and then develop a list of guys that are willing to build them for others at a small fee.  That seems to work really well for other reflector projects.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  bill@...

On Dec 31, 2017, at 10:32 AM, philip yates <phil@...> wrote:

Way above my head, but very interested in this project.
Would be interested in something that could be supplied as a built PCB, and just needed the controls,
plugs and sockets etc. connecting up, and of course boxing.
Would look great added as part of the Bitx - uBitx line up.

Phil - G7BZD

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 4:23 PM, K9HZ <bill@...> wrote:
That was the plan from the start.  Even with its own nano I need 18 latching digital lines so ill be doing some expanding/latching/mux-ing.

What I'm struggling with at the moment is using latching relays (expensive) vs the added current from all of the relays if they are not latching.  Not good for battery ops.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator

Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC

Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator

Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ

Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  bill@...

On Dec 31, 2017, at 7:55 AM, Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...> wrote:

I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for \$3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

Jack, W8TEE

From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN

On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:
So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about \$30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

email:  bill@...

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

Good pickups!

So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:

1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap.

2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for \$100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire.

3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.

4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to \$100

5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.

6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters

And there are probably many more....

Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.

 Virus-free. www.avast.com
<image001.gif>

Re: ubitx circuit, wiring, source code on github

Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...>

Thanks, jerry ---

He seems to have two completely different calibration scenarios in the sketches:

1.  Factory calibration, where he turns off all  oscillators except one and has you calibrate via  10MHz synthesized signal, and THEN set were the bfo oscillator is on the skirt of the filter;    (see ubitx_factory alignment file)

2.  User calibration, accessed through normal usage of the encoder push button, where he seems to work at keeping you tuned into a friend as you fix your frequency display (adjusting internally both oscillators in compensatory ways?) and then separately set the BFO to desired portion of the skirt..

In the outcome of both techniques, I think  because of the way he calculates local oscillator frequencies, that the displayed frequency setting remains accurate even if you move your choice for the BFO frequency, via the code below:

void setFrequency(unsigned long f){
uint64_t osc_f;

setTXFilters(f);

if (isUSB){
si5351bx_setfreq(2, SECOND_OSC_USB - usbCarrier + f);
si5351bx_setfreq(1, SECOND_OSC_USB);
}
else{
si5351bx_setfreq(2, SECOND_OSC_LSB + usbCarrier + f);
si5351bx_setfreq(1, SECOND_OSC_LSB);
}

frequency = f;
}

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jerry Gaffke via Groups.Io <jgaffke@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:47 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ubitx circuit, wiring, source code on github

Source on github at   https://github.com/afarhan/ubitx
appears to agree with this Dec 6 post from Farhan  https://groups.io/g/BITX20/message/35241
regarding how to calibrate the Si5351 on the uBitx.

But the write up at  http://www.hfsignals.com/index.php/ubitx-tuneup/
appears to agree with this post:  https://groups.io/g/BITX20/message/35235

My guess is that Farhan's github repository is out of date
and does not agree with what is getting shipped.

Jerry, KE7ER

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

D. Daniel McGlothin KB3MUN

I'll volunteer to beta test too.  I'll have lots of youngsters testing it too.

I'm planning to make my uBITXs my boy scout activity radios.  I'd like the antenna flexibility of a tuner.  For now, I have an homebrew L-match for EFHW.  I'll add mag-loop sometime this winter.  My first "radio at camp" activity will be at the end of this month in south central Pennsylvania.

Daniel KB3MUN

On 12/31/2017 11:26, K9HZ wrote:
Well my company will manufacture the tuner, but i will need a bunch of beta testers to work any bugs out.

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

Richard Andrew Knack

I would also be VERY interested in a kit!

Rich

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 1:46 PM, KN4GUY JOHN DEJARNETTE
<KN4GUY@...> wrote:
Dr Schmidt

I am very interested in the kit.

As a new ham I get a lot of enjoyment from assembling kits and tinkering.

The Bitx makes it affordable and easy to learn.

An antenna tuner that can accommodate winlink ALE would be great!

John
KN4GUY

On Dec 31, 2017, at 09:10, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:

​If you guys make this happen, I'm going to be rather amazed.   Even if it merely does a clunky search search search algorithm in the beginning......

It can later do the intellituner thing with the smith chart type calculations.

I'm able to actuate my MFJ 993B intellituner easily on 80 meters and usually on 40 and sometimes higher with my uBitx running just 12 volts to the finals and doing digital.   But that thing was about \$270...........

As Ashhar pointed out....someone should form a company.   Crowd-fund it if you wish.    Get printed circuit boards.  (I even learned how to do that!)   think about how to make sure it works for every possible mode & application.....

For scanning systems like WINLINK, it would be wonderful if it could move to memory positions on RECEIVE (which means the VFO has to output something, or you have to use a frequency counter to watch it)

For ALE, the freuqncy changes are TOO FAST to follow with relays.

Cheers.

gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:55 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for \$3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

Jack, W8TEE

From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN

On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:
So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about \$30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

email:  bill@...

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

Good pickups!

So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:

1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap.

2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for \$100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire.

3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.

4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to \$100

5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.

6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters

And there are probably many more....

Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.

 Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: elves are at it

bill richardson

Same here and I ordered on 15 Dec.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2017, at 12:46 PM, Art Howard <k0kuk.vhf@...> wrote:

I meant to say I got the same mail a couple of days ago but mine was ordered the 18th of December

On 31 Dec 2017 8:12 am, "WA9GQT via Groups.Io" <WA9GQT=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I just received this post today(Dec 31).

Dear Customer,
Happy New Year!

We have received your payment of USD 119 on December 23, 2017 through Paypal. Your payment has been included in the 'Pre order' list. The orders are being shipped in the order of the payment received. It is difficult for us to estimate the shipping date for your order. However, we are putting our best efforts to ship them asap. The tracking details of the shipment will be updated on the Paypal transaction once the order is shipped.
We are overwhelmed with your response for micro BITX and we are encouraged to do better and roll out new products.
Please cooperate with us for the delay in shipping your orders. We look forward to your continued patronage. In case, you have any issues, get in touch with us at hfsignals@...

HFSignals Team

Thank you Ashhar
Happy New Year,
73, Rod WA9GQT

Re: ubitx circuit, wiring, source code on github

Jerry Gaffke

Source on github at   https://github.com/afarhan/ubitx
appears to agree with this Dec 6 post from Farhan  https://groups.io/g/BITX20/message/35241
regarding how to calibrate the Si5351 on the uBitx.

But the write up at  http://www.hfsignals.com/index.php/ubitx-tuneup/
appears to agree with this post:  https://groups.io/g/BITX20/message/35235

My guess is that Farhan's github repository is out of date
and does not agree with what is getting shipped.

Jerry, KE7ER

Re: Tuner? Well Sure!

KN4GUY JOHN DEJARNETTE

Dr Schmidt

I am very interested in the kit.

As a new ham I get a lot of enjoyment from assembling kits and tinkering.

The Bitx makes it affordable and easy to learn.

An antenna tuner that can accommodate winlink ALE would be great!

John
KN4GUY

On Dec 31, 2017, at 09:10, Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...> wrote:

​If you guys make this happen, I'm going to be rather amazed.   Even if it merely does a clunky search search search algorithm in the beginning......

It can later do the intellituner thing with the smith chart type calculations.

I'm able to actuate my MFJ 993B intellituner easily on 80 meters and usually on 40 and sometimes higher with my uBitx running just 12 volts to the finals and doing digital.   But that thing was about \$270...........

As Ashhar pointed out....someone should form a company.   Crowd-fund it if you wish.    Get printed circuit boards.  (I even learned how to do that!)   think about how to make sure it works for every possible mode & application.....

For scanning systems like WINLINK, it would be wonderful if it could move to memory positions on RECEIVE (which means the VFO has to output something, or you have to use a frequency counter to watch it)

For ALE, the freuqncy changes are TOO FAST to follow with relays.

Cheers.

gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Jack Purdum via Groups.Io <jjpurdum@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:55 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

I agree with Rod...it should have its own Nano. The issue really isn't the processing power, but the µBITX I/O lines are pretty scarce. Plus, you can buy the Nano for \$3, so why not? Finally, it would make the software development a little easier since could be run "alone" during testing.

Jack, W8TEE

From: Rod Self <km6sn@...>
To: BITX20@groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [BITX20] Tuner? Well Sure!

William,

Count me in.

I would be inclined to implement it it a separate case to be used with other rigs,also.

What are your (er) current thoughts on separate Nano vs integrate into ubitx's Nano?

Hope it has its own Nano, and does not rely on the ubitx. No problem if not, I can simply supply a Nano and make the tuner believe it is 'talking' to the ubitx.

Maybe I will come up with a stand-alone-controller-project for your tuner, so it can be driven with two wires, start and done.

I am interested in supporting this project.

Regards,

Rod KM6SN

On 12/29/2017 07:05 AM, K9HZ wrote:
So after finishing up most of my projects a few days ago… I really needed something to do… so I put on the drawing board… a 100w automatic tuner that can work with the uBITx (intended to go inside the same case actually) that provides power, SWR, band memory for same antennas, low power tune, bypass, etc. all in a kit form for about \$30.  I’m prototyping the think now and will work on the tuning/communications code (to integrate into the Raduino) shortly.  I’ve contacted a few of you off-channel to work out some protocol/communication issues…  but Stay tuned (double play on words there)!

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.

email:  bill@...

From: BITX20@groups.io [mailto:BITX20@groups.io] On Behalf Of Gordon Gibby
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 8:21 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

Good pickups!

So the ALE (automatic link establishment) crowd, much like the WINLINK crowd, tend to use LOTS of bands....and thus they find ways to make their antenna systems work on mulltiple bands.   Here are some of the most popular ways:

1.   Fan Dipoles (time honored technique of tying multiple dipoles together at the CENTER, and the energy tends to go to the correct one, since all the others present much higher impedances.   The wires "fan" out with usually wooden spreaders at the  end and some string involved to keep them somewhat separate.   Been there done that many times, my college ham club has a 3-band unit up on the top of an 11 story building rightnow that I built for them.   Build for yourself, dirt cheap.

2.  Auto-tuners  --- everyone makes these now and many can tune as soon as they see RF, or even return to previous settings that were memorized.   LDG,  and others.   Low power versions for \$100   End fed wire to balanced line fed dipoles---they work with lots of different kinds of wire.

3.  Inherently multiband antennas:   example, full wavelength loops.   Build for yourself.

4.  Carefully tuned end-fed transformer-fed antennas --- there are now several of these on the market and they give an acceptable SWR on mulltiple harmonically related bands.   Tend to be close to \$100

5.  (the one I dislike)  resistively terminated folded dipoles --- these use a resistor to make up for what a folded dipole can't create and give an SWR that is "acceptable" literally across EVERY FREQUENCY in a decade of frequencies.   3-30 MHz.   The tradeoff is loss, as much as 10 db at times.  And they generally are pricey.

6.  There are some multi-band vertical antennas on the market that are basically vertical fan dipoles, but scrunched up in a nice package.   An elderly ham in my city has one, 32 feet tall....a gang of us put it up and doggone it does from from 40 meters all the way through 6 meters

And there are probably many more....

Gordon

From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Arvo KD9HLC via Groups.Io <arvopl@...>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:12 AM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] ALE, WINLINK and uBitX

An automatic tuner protects the rig during TX.  If the SWR is bad during TX, some of the signal coming out of the transmitter is reflected by the antenna back into the radio where it can cause damage.

That said, RX is optimized by a properly tuned antenna, but some good amount of signal still makes into the radio when receiving, even when the antenna is not perfect.

So I assume Doc G² is scanning for radio traffic, and then when he finds some if he wants to transmit he does something about his SWR for that frequency.

 Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: heat sink

Gordon Gibby <ggibby@...>

at the low impedance levels we're talking aobut it probably won't matter, but they each will have some capacitance to the heatsink presuming it is grounded and not floaating (and that they are insulated)

gordon
________________________________________
From: BITX20@groups.io <BITX20@groups.io> on behalf of Vince Vielhaber <vev@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 1:21 PM
To: BITX20@groups.io
Subject: Re: [BITX20] heat sink

As long as they're insulated from the heat sink, yes. If not, no.

Vince.

On 12/31/2017 01:20 PM, rf200655 wrote:
Can both of finals be on same heatsink ?

Thanks Ray
KC4DYM
--
Michigan VHF Corp. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nobucks.net_&d=DwICaQ&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=3ELgZgmTnPzGsfvQxkd1S_2NGLYM8sHTxVCQKFxhVXQ&m=2Lj6gbVI-AVkKIEwpezDp6PghcK_xvxdSBbJn4Rrj1s&s=SaoJTvZgq8FkKC6ZfU8AF-rhdD1XuEkXiliANyTCfQQ&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.CDupe.com_&d=DwICaQ&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=3ELgZgmTnPzGsfvQxkd1S_2NGLYM8sHTxVCQKFxhVXQ&m=2Lj6gbVI-AVkKIEwpezDp6PghcK_xvxdSBbJn4Rrj1s&s=_cMyp31AWVsn6vGtVMFpgqbVrm7NPbjwhFqkUKiCW9Q&e=
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.metalworkingfun.com&d=DwICaQ&c=pZJPUDQ3SB9JplYbifm4nt2lEVG5pWx2KikqINpWlZM&r=3ELgZgmTnPzGsfvQxkd1S_2NGLYM8sHTxVCQKFxhVXQ&m=2Lj6gbVI-AVkKIEwpezDp6PghcK_xvxdSBbJn4Rrj1s&s=gs6Pa-ZzB4aHT3tlWBSKAsMNfqsWbYX7fNDoUq2CGak&e=