Micron car


Dale
 

When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale


Ken Nelson
 

Hadn't thought of that Dale - excellent point! 

Ken

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 12:35 PM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





David Russel
 

for unusual steering check out this bike  https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-vyrus-985-c3-4v/  from one of the commenters on this bike
Here is a short video on the steering mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvItKPifB0 Maybe it helps in understanding what's going on for a complicated replacement for the Earle's Fork to prevent the front from diving during braking.

Over my head, that's for sure
David

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





Ken Nelson
 

And all this was re-engineered just to avoid front end dive on braking??  So many more wear points with all those Heim joints which could develop slop over time & use - vs the beautiful simplicity of my '62 BMW R60 bike with its Earle's fork arrangement - just seems like complexity for complexities sake!  Gimme a brake!  David, is your bike of the Earle's variety? 

Ken

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:14 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
for unusual steering check out this bike  https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-vyrus-985-c3-4v/  from one of the commenters on this bike
Here is a short video on the steering mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvItKPifB0 Maybe it helps in understanding what's going on for a complicated replacement for the Earle's Fork to prevent the front from diving during braking.

Over my head, that's for sure
David

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





David Russel
 

Ken,

There may be other reasons for that front end design but I’m not interested enough to dig into it. 

Was only looking for a Dover White R27 and they all had Earles. 


David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


And all this was re-engineered just to avoid front end dive on braking??  So many more wear points with all those Heim joints which could develop slop over time & use - vs the beautiful simplicity of my '62 BMW R60 bike with its Earle's fork arrangement - just seems like complexity for complexities sake!  Gimme a brake!  David, is your bike of the Earle's variety? 

Ken

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:14 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
for unusual steering check out this bike  https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-vyrus-985-c3-4v/  from one of the commenters on this bike
Here is a short video on the steering mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvItKPifB0 Maybe it helps in understanding what's going on for a complicated replacement for the Earle's Fork to prevent the front from diving during braking.

Over my head, that's for sure
David

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





Ken Nelson
 

So have  you converted Luba to bikes now???  Have you gotten the "new" bike all straightened out?  

I've found a new twist on BAT and Barnfinds - a "Ravine find"  below:

First yr production '56 DS19, about to be buried with 7 other cars in a Montana ravine as landfill, but saved by 19 yr o ld budding mechanic in Havre Montana near the Canadian border.  Recent article in June issue of Classic & Sportscar mag indicates it was one of 10,859 cars built that yr and all plus more cars totalling 12,000 were ordered by the end of the first day of the Oct 1 1955 Paris show - this car's VIN is 10,650.  The kid, Craig Shaw, saved the car, got it running and posted a video of it pumping itself up on Fleaby Dec. 2008. I won the bid, but had it stored for 10 yrs outside as I couldn't find a transporter willing to go way the hell up there to bring the car to Detroit.  So I bought Dick Osgood's 2001 Dodge van, towed my dolly from PA to Havre Sept 2019, found the car's tires still held air, put on new Xs gotten from Dick Tuttle & hauled it 1400 miles home.  Got it running here & going thru it  now in the barn and it's loaded with details that were changed on the fly as they got into volume production that disappeared in '57 and later.  It's basically an early prototype.  I hope to document all the details for next yr's Saratoga NY Citroen meet, & drive the car there. Since then, Craig has opened his own repair shop in Havre and is booked up a month in advance.  So if you ever head up that direction,  it'd be a good shop in case you needed assistance! 

Ken


On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:58 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
Ken,

There may be other reasons for that front end design but I’m not interested enough to dig into it. 

Was only looking for a Dover White R27 and they all had Earles. 


David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


And all this was re-engineered just to avoid front end dive on braking??  So many more wear points with all those Heim joints which could develop slop over time & use - vs the beautiful simplicity of my '62 BMW R60 bike with its Earle's fork arrangement - just seems like complexity for complexities sake!  Gimme a brake!  David, is your bike of the Earle's variety? 

Ken

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:14 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
for unusual steering check out this bike  https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-vyrus-985-c3-4v/  from one of the commenters on this bike
Here is a short video on the steering mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvItKPifB0 Maybe it helps in understanding what's going on for a complicated replacement for the Earle's Fork to prevent the front from diving during braking.

Over my head, that's for sure
David

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





Charles
 

The reason for cuter hub steering design on the motorcycles is to insulate the suspension inputs from the steering inputs, so that bumps don’t induce steering changes, and steering inputs don’t induce suspension changes.
Not a new design. Originally used on 1921 Neracar motorcycle.
Steering engine cradle design on Micron car is very different and does not accomplish this same objective. Also, Bond Minicar used similar steerable engine cradle.
Chas


Dick Tuttle
 

While we're discussing steering types we need to understand that 2 wheeler steering is a completely different dynamic from 3 or more wheels.  About the only time you actually steer a 2 wheeler with the steering system is while pushing it around in the shop.  On the road if you push the handle bar with the right hand, the bike will lean to the right and turn right with very little deflection of the steering system.  Some call this reverse steering.  It is completely natural to us from the first time we learn to ride a 2 wheeler.  Put on a side car and you will have to steer with the handle bars like a kid on a tricycle, a completely different feeling.

OEC in the UK ran for years with a steering system that is hard to describe. It's not really hub center but something entirely different. Jack Costella of Bonneville streamliner fame used an exaggerated OEC system which shifted the center of gravity to allow steering without leaning (theoretically).  Of course Bonneville requires very little steering deflection.

Steering engine and all as seen on the Bond Minicar and Tempo trucks (and dodge'm bumper cars) has worked well enough on single wheel drive systems, but seldom tried on two wheel drive setups.  Micron, and Seldon's original patent design are the only two I know of and I'm not sure if Seldon's ever ran.  Solid axle steering has serious disadvantages, as anyone who ever went down a fast hill on an American Flyer wagon and tried to maneuver can attest to, despite body english.

Dick Tuttle


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles via groups.io <chasgould@...>
To: ArcaneAutos@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Sep 24, 2021 3:22 pm
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Micron car

The reason for cuter hub steering design on the motorcycles is to insulate the suspension inputs from the steering inputs, so that bumps don’t induce steering changes, and steering inputs don’t induce suspension changes.
Not a new design. Originally used on 1921 Neracar motorcycle.
Steering engine cradle design on Micron car is very different and does not accomplish this same objective. Also, Bond Minicar used similar steerable engine cradle.
Chas







Matthew Spielberg
 

I am fighting for a name for the system with a steerable drive unit? Or is it nameless?

Sent from my IBM Selectric

On Sep 25, 2021, at 2:04 PM, Dick Tuttle via groups.io <four4dhc@...> wrote:


While we're discussing steering types we need to understand that 2 wheeler steering is a completely different dynamic from 3 or more wheels.  About the only time you actually steer a 2 wheeler with the steering system is while pushing it around in the shop.  On the road if you push the handle bar with the right hand, the bike will lean to the right and turn right with very little deflection of the steering system.  Some call this reverse steering.  It is completely natural to us from the first time we learn to ride a 2 wheeler.  Put on a side car and you will have to steer with the handle bars like a kid on a tricycle, a completely different feeling.

OEC in the UK ran for years with a steering system that is hard to describe. It's not really hub center but something entirely different. Jack Costella of Bonneville streamliner fame used an exaggerated OEC system which shifted the center of gravity to allow steering without leaning (theoretically).  Of course Bonneville requires very little steering deflection.

Steering engine and all as seen on the Bond Minicar and Tempo trucks (and dodge'm bumper cars) has worked well enough on single wheel drive systems, but seldom tried on two wheel drive setups.  Micron, and Seldon's original patent design are the only two I know of and I'm not sure if Seldon's ever ran.  Solid axle steering has serious disadvantages, as anyone who ever went down a fast hill on an American Flyer wagon and tried to maneuver can attest to, despite body english.

Dick Tuttle


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles via groups.io <chasgould@...>
To: ArcaneAutos@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Sep 24, 2021 3:22 pm
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Micron car

The reason for cuter hub steering design on the motorcycles is to insulate the suspension inputs from the steering inputs, so that bumps don’t induce steering changes, and steering inputs don’t induce suspension changes.
Not a new design. Originally used on 1921 Neracar motorcycle.
Steering engine cradle design on Micron car is very different and does not accomplish this same objective. Also, Bond Minicar used similar steerable engine cradle.
Chas







Dick Tuttle
 

Maybe axle center point steering?  I also forgot to mention the Piaggio 3 wheel scooter.  It does lean and handle just like a 2 wheeler.


Dick Tuttle