Date
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Lockheed Hydraulic Tappets/Lifters
Tom Rymes
Arcaners,
I figure that this is fairly arcane on multiple fronts, and that this is a knowledgeable group, so I wanted to ask if anyone can help me out here. My 1952 Jowett Javelin is noisy as all get out, due to what I currently think may be failed hydraulic tappets.
Early Javelins used Lockheed hydraulic tappets. My understanding is that Lockheed licensed an American design and tried to sell the British industry on it, but had very little luck. As a result, they were only used in two limited production cars before being discontinued. This means spares aren’t readily found, nor is information.
I filmed this video in the hopes that someone in this group might recognize the original source of the design, and that I might be able to get some more information or (there’s no way I’m this lucky) even find spare parts.
Let me know if you have any details!
Tom
Dick Tuttle
Seems like I have seen something like that on a 39 Cadillac V8.
Dick Tuttle
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Rymes <tom@...>
To: arcaneautos@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Oct 7, 2022 8:37 am
Subject: [ArcaneAutos] Lockheed Hydraulic Tappets/Lifters
From: Tom Rymes <tom@...>
To: arcaneautos@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Oct 7, 2022 8:37 am
Subject: [ArcaneAutos] Lockheed Hydraulic Tappets/Lifters
Arcaners,
I figure that this is fairly arcane on multiple fronts, and that this is a knowledgeable group, so I wanted to ask if anyone can help me out here. My 1952 Jowett Javelin is noisy as all get out, due to what I currently think may be failed hydraulic tappets.
Early Javelins used Lockheed hydraulic tappets. My understanding is that Lockheed licensed an American design and tried to sell the British industry on it, but had very little luck. As a result, they were only used in two limited production cars before being discontinued. This means spares aren’t readily found, nor is information.
I filmed this video in the hopes that someone in this group might recognize the original source of the design, and that I might be able to get some more information or (there’s no way I’m this lucky) even find spare parts.
Let me know if you have any details!
Tom
Ken Nelson
Tom, have you tried contacting Edmund Nankivell in the UK? He's well connected to the Jowett Jupiter/Javelin group. His email is ed@.... He keeps tabs on the serial nos. and whereabouts of the remaining Jowett cars. I have 5 Jupiters I hope to get to one of these days, but in the meantime, might there be a way to replace these hyd lifters with lengthened hydraulic ones from a late model car, since so many cars now use them routinely. Or, is there a way to carefully disassemble these and rebuid or reseal them? Or, considering these engines are not hig revvers, how would they be with solid lifters? Hyd lifters were pretty new in the early '50s when these cars were built -
Have you checked with google re Jowett clubs in the UK? I think there are some shops in the UK which deal with these cars - and Ed would know.
Ken
Seems like I have seen something like that on a 39 Cadillac V8.
Dick Tuttle
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Rymes <tom@...>
To: arcaneautos@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Oct 7, 2022 8:37 am
Subject: [ArcaneAutos] Lockheed Hydraulic Tappets/Lifters
Arcaners,
I figure that this is fairly arcane on multiple fronts, and that this is a knowledgeable group, so I wanted to ask if anyone can help me out here. My 1952 Jowett Javelin is noisy as all get out, due to what I currently think may be failed hydraulic tappets.
Early Javelins used Lockheed hydraulic tappets. My understanding is that Lockheed licensed an American design and tried to sell the British industry on it, but had very little luck. As a result, they were only used in two limited production cars before being discontinued. This means spares aren’t readily found, nor is information.
I filmed this video in the hopes that someone in this group might recognize the original source of the design, and that I might be able to get some more information or (there’s no way I’m this lucky) even find spare parts.
Let me know if you have any details!
Tom
Michelle Pelletier
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Ken Nelson
Sent: October 7, 2022 10:51 AM
To: ArcaneAutos@groups.io
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Lockheed Hydraulic Tappets/Lifters
Sent: October 7, 2022 10:51 AM
To: ArcaneAutos@groups.io
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Lockheed Hydraulic Tappets/Lifters
Tom, have you tried contacting Edmund Nankivell in the UK? He's well connected to the Jowett Jupiter/Javelin group. His email is ed@.... He keeps tabs on the serial nos. and whereabouts of the remaining Jowett cars. I have 5 Jupiters I hope to get to one of these days, but in the meantime, might there be a way to replace these hyd lifters with lengthened hydraulic ones from a late model car, since so many cars now use them routinely. Or, is there a way to carefully disassemble these and rebuid or reseal them? Or, considering these engines are not hig revvers, how would they be with solid lifters? Hyd lifters were pretty new in the early '50s when these cars were built -
Have you checked with google re Jowett clubs in the UK? I think there are some shops in the UK which deal with these cars - and Ed would know.
Ken
On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 12:00 PM Dick Tuttle via groups.io <four4dhc=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Seems like I have seen something like that on a 39 Cadillac V8.
Dick Tuttle
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Rymes <tom@...>
To: arcaneautos@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Oct 7, 2022 8:37 am
Subject: [ArcaneAutos] Lockheed Hydraulic Tappets/LiftersArcaners,
I figure that this is fairly arcane on multiple fronts, and that this is a knowledgeable group, so I wanted to ask if anyone can help me out here. My 1952 Jowett Javelin is noisy as all get out, due to what I currently think may be failed hydraulic tappets.
Early Javelins used Lockheed hydraulic tappets. My understanding is that Lockheed licensed an American design and tried to sell the British industry on it, but had very little luck. As a result, they were only used in two limited production cars before being discontinued. This means spares aren’t readily found, nor is information.
I filmed this video in the hopes that someone in this group might recognize the original source of the design, and that I might be able to get some more information or (there’s no way I’m this lucky) even find spare parts.
Let me know if you have any details!
Tom
Keith Murphy
Like attempts to put hydraulic lifters in air cooled VW cases, if the lifter bores wear more then 0.002” - the hydraulic lifters make noise.
On the original air cooled blocks with solid lifters, if the bored are worn you loose oil pressure like crazy - it’s exactly the same on the Jowett - excessive wear in the lifter bores, causes low oil pressure, lifters will knock.
VW guys are aware of this wear, they have the lifter bores bushed with bronze bushings, but that technology is aimed at VW lifter bore sizes and case spacing, so custom work would be needed on the Jowett.
I have Jowett, so I have thought about this issue, going to solid oversize lifters and reaming the case is but one option - of several - all a matter of $ vs originality.
On Oct 7, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Tom Rymes <tom@...> wrote:
Arcaners,I figure that this is fairly arcane on multiple fronts, and that this is a knowledgeable group, so I wanted to ask if anyone can help me out here. My 1952 Jowett Javelin is noisy as all get out, due to what I currently think may be failed hydraulic tappets.Early Javelins used Lockheed hydraulic tappets. My understanding is that Lockheed licensed an American design and tried to sell the British industry on it, but had very little luck. As a result, they were only used in two limited production cars before being discontinued. This means spares aren’t readily found, nor is information.I filmed this video in the hopes that someone in this group might recognize the original source of the design, and that I might be able to get some more information or (there’s no way I’m this lucky) even find spare parts.Let me know if you have any details!Tom
Keith Murphy
Oooh that’s a worn lifter bore:
Bushed lifter bores:
On Oct 7, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Tom Rymes <tom@...> wrote:
Arcaners,I figure that this is fairly arcane on multiple fronts, and that this is a knowledgeable group, so I wanted to ask if anyone can help me out here. My 1952 Jowett Javelin is noisy as all get out, due to what I currently think may be failed hydraulic tappets.Early Javelins used Lockheed hydraulic tappets. My understanding is that Lockheed licensed an American design and tried to sell the British industry on it, but had very little luck. As a result, they were only used in two limited production cars before being discontinued. This means spares aren’t readily found, nor is information.I filmed this video in the hopes that someone in this group might recognize the original source of the design, and that I might be able to get some more information or (there’s no way I’m this lucky) even find spare parts.Let me know if you have any details!Tom
Keith Murphy
FYI
Some Interesting reading links below.
Sorting out camshaft lobe wear, lifter wear (solid or hydraulic) , lifter bore wear, cam shaft journal wear, condition of your 70 year old oil pump, and you should get more oil pressure and quieter running.
Sadly, this could be tear down and inspection time to save your engine from worse issues: check rod bearings and main bearings - dare I say - check that crankshaft for cracks - they snap like carrots … I hate that attribute, but it was true for flat sided cranks which were superseded by oval web cranks that seemed to not have the same cracking issues like earlier flat sided cranks did.
That’s years of Jowett knowledge in a short paragraph.
On Oct 7, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Tom Rymes <tom@...> wrote:
Arcaners,I figure that this is fairly arcane on multiple fronts, and that this is a knowledgeable group, so I wanted to ask if anyone can help me out here. My 1952 Jowett Javelin is noisy as all get out, due to what I currently think may be failed hydraulic tappets.Early Javelins used Lockheed hydraulic tappets. My understanding is that Lockheed licensed an American design and tried to sell the British industry on it, but had very little luck. As a result, they were only used in two limited production cars before being discontinued. This means spares aren’t readily found, nor is information.I filmed this video in the hopes that someone in this group might recognize the original source of the design, and that I might be able to get some more information or (there’s no way I’m this lucky) even find spare parts.Let me know if you have any details!Tom
Tom Rymes
Keith,
You’re talking about the bore of the lifter itself, the one that the small cylinder rides in? Or the bore in which the lifter sits?
Tom
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
You’re talking about the bore of the lifter itself, the one that the small cylinder rides in? Or the bore in which the lifter sits?
Tom
On Oct 7, 2022, at 7:01 PM, Keith Murphy via groups.io <Keithddl527@...> wrote:
Like attempts to put hydraulic lifters in air cooled VW cases, if the lifter bores wear more then 0.002” - the hydraulic lifters make noise.
On the original air cooled blocks with solid lifters, if the bored are worn you loose oil pressure like crazy - it’s exactly the same on the Jowett - excessive wear in the lifter bores, causes low oil pressure, lifters will knock.
VW guys are aware of this wear, they have the lifter bores bushed with bronze bushings, but that technology is aimed at VW lifter bore sizes and case spacing, so custom work would be needed on the Jowett.
I have Jowett, so I have thought about this issue, going to solid oversize lifters and reaming the case is but one option - of several - all a matter of $ vs originality.
Keith Murphy
You have to test each hydraulic lifter and see if they are leaking down in a bad way, if they are worn out, you need new ones or replacements, even changing over to solid lifters is a good option - all late engines use sold lifters, for good reason, eh?
Next you have to see if the block/case is worn, that’s each lifter bore that a lifter goes into, that’s into the case, if the bore and lifter are both clean, and insert it, and you can wiggle it, it has more then .002” clearance and would need bushing/sleeving to restore not only oil pressure but the pumping up action of the hydraulic lifter itself.
No easy answers, you have to check each lifter and each bore hole they reside in for wea, which is your enemy.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Next you have to see if the block/case is worn, that’s each lifter bore that a lifter goes into, that’s into the case, if the bore and lifter are both clean, and insert it, and you can wiggle it, it has more then .002” clearance and would need bushing/sleeving to restore not only oil pressure but the pumping up action of the hydraulic lifter itself.
No easy answers, you have to check each lifter and each bore hole they reside in for wea, which is your enemy.
On Oct 7, 2022, at 5:39 PM, Tom Rymes <tom@...> wrote:
Keith,
You’re talking about the bore of the lifter itself, the one that the small cylinder rides in? Or the bore in which the lifter sits?
TomOn Oct 7, 2022, at 7:01 PM, Keith Murphy via groups.io <Keithddl527@...> wrote:
Like attempts to put hydraulic lifters in air cooled VW cases, if the lifter bores wear more then 0.002” - the hydraulic lifters make noise.
On the original air cooled blocks with solid lifters, if the bored are worn you loose oil pressure like crazy - it’s exactly the same on the Jowett - excessive wear in the lifter bores, causes low oil pressure, lifters will knock.
VW guys are aware of this wear, they have the lifter bores bushed with bronze bushings, but that technology is aimed at VW lifter bore sizes and case spacing, so custom work would be needed on the Jowett.
I have Jowett, so I have thought about this issue, going to solid oversize lifters and reaming the case is but one option - of several - all a matter of $ vs originality.