Borgward-Goliath


Dick Tuttle
 

Lloyd-Hansa GMBH produced three makes, Borgward, the top line, Goliath, the
middle class, and Lloyd, the bottom feeder, in Bremen. The last Goliaths that
came here were called Hansa. When the company folded, Borgward production
equipment was moved to Monterrey, Mexico, where some 6 cylinder cars were
produced, mostly for taxi use by a company called Impulsora Automotriz SA, but they
couldn't compete on the market with VW and the American cars there. While the
company's products were good, they were expensive to build being very labor
intensive. The Goliath line disappeared, but the Lloyd Arabella went to Japan
where it became the basis of the Subaru 4 cylinder opposed cars. Subaru
continues to make the boxer type of engine today, though I doubt much of the Lloyd
design is left, other than the layout.

Dick Tuttle


comftntrtl
 

Question,

Someone on another group said that the German Goliath was built by
Borgward. Is that so? I think Borgward may have bought Goliath
when they went under, but they weren't sold here thru the same
dealerships, way back when...

Does anyone want to up-date me on the Borgward/Goliath relationship?

Are there any Goliath Owners in our group? I know we have at least
on Borgwarder.

A co-worker friend of mine had a Goliath back in the mid-1960's. It
was a pretty good little car, but wasn't as good as my mom's '58
Borgward.

Just askin',
Warren


Carter Willey <metric@...>
 

16-Dec-04 17:40:18,Warren a crit:

Someone on another group said that the German Goliath was built by
Borgward. Is that so? I think Borgward may have bought Goliath
when they went under, but they weren't sold here thru the same
dealerships, way back when...

Does anyone want to up-date me on the Borgward/Goliath relationship?
If you can handle German, there's a concise history of Borgward here:
http://home.arcor.de/weisshauptr/g_borgward/geschichte.htm ,
of Goliath here:
http://home.arcor.de/weisshauptr/g_goliath/ggeschichte.htm

This account shows that the Goliath three-wheeled light truck was at first a
model of Borgward, only later being presented as a separate make. Goliaths were
always and ever produced by Borgward.

The Hansa and Lloyd companies were founded in Bremen in 1906; Hansa absorbed
Lloyd in 1914. Borgward-Goliath took over Hansa-Lloyd in 1929.

All four names, (Lloyd, Goliath, Hansa and Borgward) were applied to post-war
cars in a scheme similar to that of GM: separate brands under one corporate
umbrella.

The early post-war Goliath was probably a development of the Gutbrod Superior,
the first series-production car to have Bosch fuel injection. The later 1100cc
flat four Goliath (later the design was used by Subaru) was sold as the Hansa in
some markets.

Unlike GM cars, the three main branches of the postwar Borgward families (Lloyd,
Goliath/Hansa and Borgward) followed very different technical paths: the each
make was unique in concept and realisation.


carter


comftntrtl
 

Carter and Dick,

"Thankyou" both for your answers to my Borgward-Goliath question. I
had no idea the Hansa and Lloyd lines were Borgward products, too.
In the end, Borgward moved production to Mexico, most likely to take
advantage of the lower labor costs there. What finally did them in,
according to stories at the time, was that Borgward's owner used up
the company's profits in an ill-fated racing car program. Is that
true, or am I out in left-field again?

My mom still refers to her '58 Borgward as her "Little Mercedes"...

Thanks again,
Warren


Carter Willey <metric@...>
 

17-Dec-04 2:05:44 PM, Warren a crit:

Carter and Dick,

"Thankyou" both for your answers to my Borgward-Goliath question. I
had no idea the Hansa and Lloyd lines were Borgward products, too.
In the end, Borgward moved production to Mexico, most likely to take
advantage of the lower labor costs there.
Borgward did not move production to Mexico; the tooling was sold to a Mexican
concern which produced Borgward-like cars (Borgward Azetca) for a time.

What finally did them in,
according to stories at the time, was that Borgward's owner used up
the company's profits in an ill-fated racing car program. Is that
true, or am I out in left-field again?
I'd not heard that.

The story I've heard all my life, and that's alluded to in the final paragraphs
here
http://home.arcor.de/weisshauptr/g_borgward/geschichte.htm
is that influences by other automotive interests (read BMW) within the German
government forced Borgward into bankruptcy.

Possible proof of this is that once Borgward was liquidated, all their creditors
were paid in full out of the proceeds of the liquidation. This sounds to me like
a non-definition of bankruptcy.

A more in-depth Borgward history appears in German here:
http://www.borgward-ig.de/d/index.htm (select 'Geschichte' at the top of the
page), imperfectly translated into English on links from this page:
http://www.borgward-ig.de/e/eindex.htm .

I especially recommend the comments at the end of the article:
http://www.borgward-ig.de/e/history.htm


carter


facelnut <alananddeb@...>
 

Did someone say "bottom feeder"? It just so happens I have a Lloyd
LT 600. Very cute, and I love it; but for sure built on a shoestring.

Cheers, Alan


Carter Willey <metric@...>
 

17-Dec-04 21:37:14, Alan a crit:

Did someone say "bottom feeder"? It just so happens I have a Lloyd
LT 600. Very cute, and I love it; but for sure built on a shoestring.
The LT 600 and related light trucks weren't nearly so 'bottom' as the Goli and
Tempo Dreirad (three-wheeled) light trucks, and even the Goggo van was spartan by
comparison to the Lloyd. While some of the three-wheelers had somewhat higher
payloads, the little Lloyds offered more comfort and much higher cruising speeds.
And the four-stroke SOHC engine in the Lloyd was a technical masterpiece, making
the engines in the Goli and Tempo look very crude indeed.

And the central-tube chassis of all these Lloyds was quite advanced.

But the LT 600, like other Lloyds of the 'fifties, had its roots solidly in old
technology, especially regarding the body. Much of the Lloyd light-truck was
wood-framed, covered with steel, just a small step from the 'Leukoplastbomber'
fabric covering of the preceeding models.

There was a fascinating array of German light trucks available during this time.
Tempos from Vidal & Sohn were strong competition for the LKW part of the Borgward
group. The Tempo Dreirad (arguably the longest-production car ever) was
technically more advanced than the Goli, and the Tempo Wiking was at least as
advanced as the LT 600, though different in conception.

Exciting times.


carter


Dick Tuttle
 

Sorry, by bottom feeder I meant that the Lloyd was the lowest cost car of the
concern's lineup. When I was 18 years old I worked for a Lloyd dealer and
was sent to factory mechanic's school for Lloyd in San Francisco where I became
an expert on the Alexander TS (in just 3 days!). I have great esteem for
these cars and ended up owning several. The TS was fast and durable and could
outrun and outlast any other stock 600cc car, including the much later Honda 600.
My wife got her first driver's license in one, a TS wagon I drove for many
years. I also had both long and short wheelbase LTs and a pickup version.
These did have wooden coach built bodies which rotted away eventually. The
Alexanders were all steel but the body panels were nearly all bolted together and
must have been labor intensive to assemble. The engines were nicely done with
roller cranks. Wherever bolts went into the alloy castings, there were cast-in
steel inserts to prevent stripping, again difficult to manufacture. Lloyd
600s are good...but then I hardly ever met a car I didn't like.

Dick Tuttle


facelnut <alananddeb@...>
 

Dick, Carter,

This is great stuff. You guys have a tremendous amount of arcane
knowledge. I am developing a new esteem for my poor Lloyd. Engine
smokes like a fiend, but now that you mention it, does seem to scoot
pretty good.

BTW Dick, I was not the least bit offended by "bottom feeder"; my
reference to your remark was meant to be humorous!? You are too kind.

Great weather in Mendo County today, I think I'll take the Llyod out
for a run.

Best, Alan