Date   

Re: Micron car

Matthew Spielberg
 

I am fighting for a name for the system with a steerable drive unit? Or is it nameless?

Sent from my IBM Selectric

On Sep 25, 2021, at 2:04 PM, Dick Tuttle via groups.io <four4dhc@...> wrote:


While we're discussing steering types we need to understand that 2 wheeler steering is a completely different dynamic from 3 or more wheels.  About the only time you actually steer a 2 wheeler with the steering system is while pushing it around in the shop.  On the road if you push the handle bar with the right hand, the bike will lean to the right and turn right with very little deflection of the steering system.  Some call this reverse steering.  It is completely natural to us from the first time we learn to ride a 2 wheeler.  Put on a side car and you will have to steer with the handle bars like a kid on a tricycle, a completely different feeling.

OEC in the UK ran for years with a steering system that is hard to describe. It's not really hub center but something entirely different. Jack Costella of Bonneville streamliner fame used an exaggerated OEC system which shifted the center of gravity to allow steering without leaning (theoretically).  Of course Bonneville requires very little steering deflection.

Steering engine and all as seen on the Bond Minicar and Tempo trucks (and dodge'm bumper cars) has worked well enough on single wheel drive systems, but seldom tried on two wheel drive setups.  Micron, and Seldon's original patent design are the only two I know of and I'm not sure if Seldon's ever ran.  Solid axle steering has serious disadvantages, as anyone who ever went down a fast hill on an American Flyer wagon and tried to maneuver can attest to, despite body english.

Dick Tuttle


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles via groups.io <chasgould@...>
To: ArcaneAutos@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Sep 24, 2021 3:22 pm
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Micron car

The reason for cuter hub steering design on the motorcycles is to insulate the suspension inputs from the steering inputs, so that bumps don’t induce steering changes, and steering inputs don’t induce suspension changes.
Not a new design. Originally used on 1921 Neracar motorcycle.
Steering engine cradle design on Micron car is very different and does not accomplish this same objective. Also, Bond Minicar used similar steerable engine cradle.
Chas







Re: Micron car

Dick Tuttle
 

While we're discussing steering types we need to understand that 2 wheeler steering is a completely different dynamic from 3 or more wheels.  About the only time you actually steer a 2 wheeler with the steering system is while pushing it around in the shop.  On the road if you push the handle bar with the right hand, the bike will lean to the right and turn right with very little deflection of the steering system.  Some call this reverse steering.  It is completely natural to us from the first time we learn to ride a 2 wheeler.  Put on a side car and you will have to steer with the handle bars like a kid on a tricycle, a completely different feeling.

OEC in the UK ran for years with a steering system that is hard to describe. It's not really hub center but something entirely different. Jack Costella of Bonneville streamliner fame used an exaggerated OEC system which shifted the center of gravity to allow steering without leaning (theoretically).  Of course Bonneville requires very little steering deflection.

Steering engine and all as seen on the Bond Minicar and Tempo trucks (and dodge'm bumper cars) has worked well enough on single wheel drive systems, but seldom tried on two wheel drive setups.  Micron, and Seldon's original patent design are the only two I know of and I'm not sure if Seldon's ever ran.  Solid axle steering has serious disadvantages, as anyone who ever went down a fast hill on an American Flyer wagon and tried to maneuver can attest to, despite body english.

Dick Tuttle


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles via groups.io <chasgould@...>
To: ArcaneAutos@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Sep 24, 2021 3:22 pm
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Micron car

The reason for cuter hub steering design on the motorcycles is to insulate the suspension inputs from the steering inputs, so that bumps don’t induce steering changes, and steering inputs don’t induce suspension changes.
Not a new design. Originally used on 1921 Neracar motorcycle.
Steering engine cradle design on Micron car is very different and does not accomplish this same objective. Also, Bond Minicar used similar steerable engine cradle.
Chas







Re: Weird steering (Was: Micron car

Fred Cisin
 

On Fri, 24 Sep 2021, Charles via groups.io wrote:
The reason for cuter hub steering design on the motorcycles is to insulate the suspension inputs from the steering inputs, so that bumps don’t induce steering changes, and steering inputs don’t induce suspension changes.
Not a new design. Originally used on 1921 Neracar motorcycle.

This discussion reminds me of the Joan Claybrook Safety Motorcycle.
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=666888
http://www.profbobsfunwithhistoricalstuff.com/2016/07/joan-claybrook-and-safe-motorycle.html
There appears to be only one picture in existence of it, and that is with it partially disassembled.

A NHTSA project at half a million dollars,
Rear wheel steering.
If you look at the picture of it, in the picture it looks like it is heading to the left. It isn't. It is pointing to the right!
They also had to add outrigger "training wheels", when nobody successfully rode it without injury (it was touted to improve motorcycle safety).
The seatbelt interlock! also made it very difficult to "walk" it, when broken down, or ended up somewhere that couldn't readily be ridden out.


She was also the first person that I was aware of to initiate a "bell the EV" campaign, to demand that electric vehicles MUST be made noisier.
Some years ago, I sat down with an engineer with a Tesla, and we worked out what would be needed for a sound safety system. Rather than "LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES", we decided on a system with MP3 input, with volume and nature of sound changing according to vehicle speed and proximity of other objects. The driver could select a base sound. My choices were "steam locomotive" and "elephant stampeded".

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@...


Re: Micron car

Charles
 

The reason for cuter hub steering design on the motorcycles is to insulate the suspension inputs from the steering inputs, so that bumps don’t induce steering changes, and steering inputs don’t induce suspension changes.
Not a new design. Originally used on 1921 Neracar motorcycle.
Steering engine cradle design on Micron car is very different and does not accomplish this same objective. Also, Bond Minicar used similar steerable engine cradle.
Chas


Re: [CaliforniaMelee] 1973 Porsche 914 for sale

Craig Parada
 

On Sep 23, 2021, at 20:33, David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:

Any one buying these? Just forwarding so don’t ask me for info. 

David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

Begin forwarded message:

From: "atsc720p via groups.io" <atsc720p=aol.com@groups.io>
Date: September 23, 2021 at 8:23:33 PM PDT
To: CaliforniaMelee@groups.io
Subject: [CaliforniaMelee] 1973 Porsche 914 for sale
Reply-To: CaliforniaMelee@groups.io

Although we both remember it being a fun to drive, aggressive little monster, it's just not getting driven very much these days.

1973 Porsche 914 is for sale: it's original 1.7L engine was rebuilt by Jansen Engineering in 2009 to 2L with Weber carbs and Pertronix ignition.
Superlite 16x7" wheels, original color was probably yellow, now red. A little rust in one door sill, we have a replacement kit for the rear bulk head
upholstery and panel in hand, but not installed. Located in San Mateo.  $5,500
Email us at atsc720p@... for photos and more information.
Michele and Dave


Re: Vyrus bike

Dale
 

That’s a lot of moving pieces…interesting design but….
Dale


[CaliforniaMelee] 1973 Porsche 914 for sale

David Russel
 

Any one buying these? Just forwarding so don’t ask me for info. 

David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

Begin forwarded message:

From: "atsc720p via groups.io" <atsc720p=aol.com@groups.io>
Date: September 23, 2021 at 8:23:33 PM PDT
To: CaliforniaMelee@groups.io
Subject: [CaliforniaMelee] 1973 Porsche 914 for sale
Reply-To: CaliforniaMelee@groups.io

Although we both remember it being a fun to drive, aggressive little monster, it's just not getting driven very much these days.

1973 Porsche 914 is for sale: it's original 1.7L engine was rebuilt by Jansen Engineering in 2009 to 2L with Weber carbs and Pertronix ignition.
Superlite 16x7" wheels, original color was probably yellow, now red. A little rust in one door sill, we have a replacement kit for the rear bulk head
upholstery and panel in hand, but not installed. Located in San Mateo.  $5,500
Email us at atsc720p@... for photos and more information.
Michele and Dave


Re: Micron car

Ken Nelson
 

So have  you converted Luba to bikes now???  Have you gotten the "new" bike all straightened out?  

I've found a new twist on BAT and Barnfinds - a "Ravine find"  below:

First yr production '56 DS19, about to be buried with 7 other cars in a Montana ravine as landfill, but saved by 19 yr o ld budding mechanic in Havre Montana near the Canadian border.  Recent article in June issue of Classic & Sportscar mag indicates it was one of 10,859 cars built that yr and all plus more cars totalling 12,000 were ordered by the end of the first day of the Oct 1 1955 Paris show - this car's VIN is 10,650.  The kid, Craig Shaw, saved the car, got it running and posted a video of it pumping itself up on Fleaby Dec. 2008. I won the bid, but had it stored for 10 yrs outside as I couldn't find a transporter willing to go way the hell up there to bring the car to Detroit.  So I bought Dick Osgood's 2001 Dodge van, towed my dolly from PA to Havre Sept 2019, found the car's tires still held air, put on new Xs gotten from Dick Tuttle & hauled it 1400 miles home.  Got it running here & going thru it  now in the barn and it's loaded with details that were changed on the fly as they got into volume production that disappeared in '57 and later.  It's basically an early prototype.  I hope to document all the details for next yr's Saratoga NY Citroen meet, & drive the car there. Since then, Craig has opened his own repair shop in Havre and is booked up a month in advance.  So if you ever head up that direction,  it'd be a good shop in case you needed assistance! 

Ken


On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:58 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
Ken,

There may be other reasons for that front end design but I’m not interested enough to dig into it. 

Was only looking for a Dover White R27 and they all had Earles. 


David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


And all this was re-engineered just to avoid front end dive on braking??  So many more wear points with all those Heim joints which could develop slop over time & use - vs the beautiful simplicity of my '62 BMW R60 bike with its Earle's fork arrangement - just seems like complexity for complexities sake!  Gimme a brake!  David, is your bike of the Earle's variety? 

Ken

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:14 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
for unusual steering check out this bike  https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-vyrus-985-c3-4v/  from one of the commenters on this bike
Here is a short video on the steering mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvItKPifB0 Maybe it helps in understanding what's going on for a complicated replacement for the Earle's Fork to prevent the front from diving during braking.

Over my head, that's for sure
David

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





Re: Micron car

David Russel
 

Ken,

There may be other reasons for that front end design but I’m not interested enough to dig into it. 

Was only looking for a Dover White R27 and they all had Earles. 


David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Sep 23, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


And all this was re-engineered just to avoid front end dive on braking??  So many more wear points with all those Heim joints which could develop slop over time & use - vs the beautiful simplicity of my '62 BMW R60 bike with its Earle's fork arrangement - just seems like complexity for complexities sake!  Gimme a brake!  David, is your bike of the Earle's variety? 

Ken

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:14 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
for unusual steering check out this bike  https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-vyrus-985-c3-4v/  from one of the commenters on this bike
Here is a short video on the steering mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvItKPifB0 Maybe it helps in understanding what's going on for a complicated replacement for the Earle's Fork to prevent the front from diving during braking.

Over my head, that's for sure
David

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





Re: Micron car

Ken Nelson
 

And all this was re-engineered just to avoid front end dive on braking??  So many more wear points with all those Heim joints which could develop slop over time & use - vs the beautiful simplicity of my '62 BMW R60 bike with its Earle's fork arrangement - just seems like complexity for complexities sake!  Gimme a brake!  David, is your bike of the Earle's variety? 

Ken

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:14 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
for unusual steering check out this bike  https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-vyrus-985-c3-4v/  from one of the commenters on this bike
Here is a short video on the steering mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvItKPifB0 Maybe it helps in understanding what's going on for a complicated replacement for the Earle's Fork to prevent the front from diving during braking.

Over my head, that's for sure
David

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





Re: Micron car

David Russel
 

for unusual steering check out this bike  https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-vyrus-985-c3-4v/  from one of the commenters on this bike
Here is a short video on the steering mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOvItKPifB0 Maybe it helps in understanding what's going on for a complicated replacement for the Earle's Fork to prevent the front from diving during braking.

Over my head, that's for sure
David

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:35 AM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





Re: Micron car

Ken Nelson
 

Hadn't thought of that Dale - excellent point! 

Ken

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 12:35 PM Dale <daleice@...> wrote:
When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale





Re: Micron car

Dale
 

When you got no CV driveshafts…ya gotta turn the whole thing as a unit…
Dale


Re: Another Lame Lane (almost) car

Peter Langecker
 

Agree, and one has to remember that these cycle cars were derived from motorcycles - some of which did have an engine on the front wheel that would be turning with the wheel. Thinking of a Velo Solex, for example. 

Velosolex ORBEA YEARS 50
And thus it would not be too far fetched to use an assembly that was derived from the way motorcycles turn their front wheels.

Peter Langecker

-----Original Message-----
From: Lou via groups.io <c1937@...>
To: ArcaneAutos@groups.io
Sent: Wed, Sep 22, 2021 8:14 am
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Another Lame Lane (almost) car

   
   
   
Hi All,               
    This is all I could find on the Micron:   
Lou      
   
        
   
   
       
   
PS:   Is this a Crosley?       
   
   
   
   
   
   
           
       
   
   
   
On 9/21/2021 1:09 PM, Dick Tuttle via groups.io wrote:
This is a very interesting car and I would like to know more about it. The narrative was kind of subjective, superficial and negative and left me wondering about a lot of features of the car, like the type of engine and how the axle steering (Bedelia style) worked with front wheel drive (Seldon patent style).  Seems like he could have found out how reverse worked. It looked nicely made with limber suspension.  I'll have do some research.

Dick Tuttle


-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Kirkpatrick via groups.io <britcarnut@...>
To: arcaneautos@groups.io <arcaneautos@groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Sep 21, 2021 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Another Lame Lane (almost) car

What a hilarious, strange little car. Kudos to Micron for trying something different. Apparently not very good, but certainly different. Emoji

Geoff K.


Re: Another Lame Lane (almost) car

Lou
 

   
   
   
Hi All,               
    This is all I could find on the Micron:   
Lou      
   
        
   
   
       
   
PS:   Is this a Crosley?       
   
   
   
   
   
   
           
       
   
   
   

On 9/21/2021 1:09 PM, Dick Tuttle via groups.io wrote:
This is a very interesting car and I would like to know more about it. The narrative was kind of subjective, superficial and negative and left me wondering about a lot of features of the car, like the type of engine and how the axle steering (Bedelia style) worked with front wheel drive (Seldon patent style).  Seems like he could have found out how reverse worked. It looked nicely made with limber suspension.  I'll have do some research.

Dick Tuttle


-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Kirkpatrick via groups.io <britcarnut@...>
To: arcaneautos@groups.io <arcaneautos@groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Sep 21, 2021 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Another Lame Lane (almost) car

What a hilarious, strange little car. Kudos to Micron for trying something different. Apparently not very good, but certainly different. Emoji

Geoff K.


Re: Another Lame Lane (almost) car

agh19 <agh19@...>
 

The Lane has a pretty good website and there are some more details on the Moncron here: https://www.lanemotormuseum.org/collection/cars/item/micron-monocar-cyclecar-1924


Re: Another Lame Lane (almost) car

Ken Nelson
 

I'd like to see the enngineering of the front end also - sure it  looks like a flexible flyer sled, but it's still a car! 

Ken

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 4:09 PM Dick Tuttle via groups.io <four4dhc=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is a very interesting car and I would like to know more about it. The narrative was kind of subjective, superficial and negative and left me wondering about a lot of features of the car, like the type of engine and how the axle steering (Bedelia style) worked with front wheel drive (Seldon patent style).  Seems like he could have found out how reverse worked. It looked nicely made with limber suspension.  I'll have do some research.

Dick Tuttle


-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Kirkpatrick via groups.io <britcarnut=yahoo.com@groups.io>
To: arcaneautos@groups.io <arcaneautos@groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Sep 21, 2021 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Another Lame Lane (almost) car

What a hilarious, strange little car. Kudos to Micron for trying something different. Apparently not very good, but certainly different. Emoji

Geoff K.


Re: Another Lame Lane (almost) car

Dick Tuttle
 

This is a very interesting car and I would like to know more about it. The narrative was kind of subjective, superficial and negative and left me wondering about a lot of features of the car, like the type of engine and how the axle steering (Bedelia style) worked with front wheel drive (Seldon patent style).  Seems like he could have found out how reverse worked. It looked nicely made with limber suspension.  I'll have do some research.

Dick Tuttle


-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Kirkpatrick via groups.io <britcarnut@...>
To: arcaneautos@groups.io <arcaneautos@groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Sep 21, 2021 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Another Lame Lane (almost) car

What a hilarious, strange little car. Kudos to Micron for trying something different. Apparently not very good, but certainly different. Emoji

Geoff K.


Re: Another Lame Lane (almost) car

Geoff Kirkpatrick
 

What a hilarious, strange little car. Kudos to Micron for trying something different. Apparently not very good, but certainly different. Emoji

Geoff K.


Re: Another Lame Lane (almost) car

Ken Nelson
 

Vary scary!!

Ken

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