Date   

Re: One for Ken? Anyone else

Matthew Spielberg
 

I get a kick out of the listing of the vehicle in "fair condition"

On 12/10/2020 2:12 PM, David Russel wrote:
-- 
Matthew M Spielberg
21855 Redwood Road
Castro Valley, CA 94546
(510) 886-5751
(209) 586-0250


One for Ken? Anyone else

David Russel
 


Re: Renault Dauphine FS

Peter Langecker
 

It does have the Deluxe bumpers, though...


-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Nelson <citbuff@...>
To: ArcaneAutos@groups.io
Sent: Wed, Dec 9, 2020 6:32 am
Subject: Re: [ArcaneAutos] Renault Dauphine FS

Just a tad more than a project........

Ken

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 3:12 AM Scott Davis <evlist@...> wrote:
No motor, no title, they also forgot to mention no floor...

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/cto/d/rosamond-1950s-renault-dauphine/7238093645.html







Re: Renault Dauphine FS

Ken Nelson
 

Just a tad more than a project........

Ken

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 3:12 AM Scott Davis <evlist@...> wrote:
No motor, no title, they also forgot to mention no floor...

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/cto/d/rosamond-1950s-renault-dauphine/7238093645.html







Renault Dauphine FS

Scott Davis
 


Funny Airplane report

Ken Nelson
 


Fly the friendly skies..........

     
 
 
Funny Airplane report

image1.jpeg


Re: Fall Color Drive

Ken Nelson
 

Fred, I stumbled on Matt and Patty at Alice's and found his brk pedal had hit the floor, and he was awaiting an AAA tow.  Seems his MC is a dual diameter design, to do fast fill of calipers via large piston, then smaller takes over to boost the pressure, and something stuck inside, which he's seen before.  
Last night he told me they'd had to wait over 4 hrs there on 35 for the tow - not a happy situation.  I hope to see him Mon and get a look at his MC, as I've been rebuilding my own brakes since I got my Grandfather's Whizzer at 13.  I switched the rear pistons on my Panhard to brass when I got a good slug of the metal, as they would often stick - steel pistons in iron bores just like each other too much in DOT3.  So far, no sticking.  They got home somehow - probably with Miles as they couldn't ride with the towdriver - Thanks again for hosting us all - 

Ken

On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 1:44 PM Red Fred <redfred47@...> wrote:
We had a swell drive yesterday, w/o much traffic!  Prompted by the Fiat Owners Group I belong to, I was pressured to organize a little informal, impromptu drive in my local area to see the changing of the leaves.   
    We met in Burlingame, and it was pretty cool to see fellow Arcaners, who were in Fiats!   I cheated and brought my '33 Ford PU, but had a dead Fiat door in the back for all to see.   These doors are an achilles heel, and I brought for show & tell.
    I'm just wondering if there have been any Matthew sightings, as he was last known waiting for AAA at Alices' with his brakeless Facel.   I may have to send the elves with some hot eggnog krispies if he's still there?

Merry Motoring, RF.


Fall Color Drive

Red Fred
 

We had a swell drive yesterday, w/o much traffic!  Prompted by the Fiat Owners Group I belong to, I was pressured to organize a little informal, impromptu drive in my local area to see the changing of the leaves.   
    We met in Burlingame, and it was pretty cool to see fellow Arcaners, who were in Fiats!   I cheated and brought my '33 Ford PU, but had a dead Fiat door in the back for all to see.   These doors are an achilles heel, and I brought for show & tell.
    I'm just wondering if there have been any Matthew sightings, as he was last known waiting for AAA at Alices' with his brakeless Facel.   I may have to send the elves with some hot eggnog krispies if he's still there?

Merry Motoring, RF.


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

600miles
 

I had a customer when I lived in Boulder Creek who owned my moms old Honda 600 sedan. Jenny didn't understand redline meant slow down. I had to change her crankshaft at least 3 times while she had it. I got it down to a 10 hour project where she hung out all day. I would cut the master link and remove the whole top end assembled - Jugs to cam box came off as 1 unit so I only ever had to replace the cylinder base gasket. 


Re: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

Red Fred
 

Hi All,
   Looks like things are looking  good for tomorrow.   Lets try and meet and be ready for a 10:00am blast off from the Safeway parking lot at Howard & El Camino in Burlingame.  These days, it's not really cool to hang about, and this parking lot isn't the best for meeting up.   So please try and be there slightly before 10am, with us heading out at 10:10 North on El Camino for a block to Ralston, then up Ralston, which turns/blends into Chateau Drive and then actually Tees into Skyline, which is merely a frontage road at this point, running South along 280.   We then turn right at the stop sign of Hayne Road, and proceed UNDER the 280 Freeway to continue south on Skyline, but now we will be on the more scenic frontage road.   This will Tee into 92 at the "Lakes", where we make a right, heading West.    Of interest is that the "lakes" are actually the San Andreas Fault!    Then it's a quick 2.5 miles on 92 to a left turn at the Cemetery for 35 (Skyline).   There is a turn out there, and I  can pull over and wait for stragglers, but don't hang out in the road; pull over to wait.
    Then it's onward for 5.2 miles to my house if we have enough Fiat 124 Door guys, or, if not, straight on for a total of 13 miles to Alices where there is gas & porta potties.   Not really a stop at this point, as it will be crowded with all the weekenders.   So stop if you need to.   From Alices we kinda wrap around the place, and head West on 84 towards La Honda, San Gregorio & the Coast.    This stretch of 84 seemed to have a lot of color earlier this week.  Hopefully the gods are still with us on this.    I will probably stop at the  General Store in San Gregorio (they have a bar there).   Others may opt to continue to the Beach, or perhaps head south on Stage Road to Pescadero, where there is gas, and should be food (there is a deli  behind the little market there).    
   Just a quick, informal, impromptu jaunt.  There will be no maps, no fees, and no body to blame.    
   Be warned of some sudden  trash dumped along the stretch of 35 just after 92.   It seems that not only are peeps dumping their garbage, but are now dumping dead bodies; as seen in the news this week.   

Merry Motoring, RF

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:44 AM fiatdan fiatdan@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

RF,
Thanks for the suggestion on a drive to see the local fall colors in your neck of the woods and a possible viewing of your surgery skills to repair a weakened/ damaged attachment for a FIAT Spider door hinge.

Sorry to hear about your FIAT situation with a "all new low" regarding running cars. But whatever you bring, it is always welcome especially when you organize the event.  I know it will be interesting, like seeing you in a "normal" modern car, though a old buggy would be preferred! 

Sad to hear about the latest murder scene. Was that an accident on 35?
Dan Y





Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.


-------- Original message --------
From: "Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica]" <fiatamerica@...>
Date: 12/3/20 10:44 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

 

Hi Gang,
   Afraid that I'm a dinosaur on this computer thing, and I can't quite keep separate who I spoke to on the Fiat Chat line, and who hit me up personally.  But there was discussion of a fall colors drive in my vicinity.   It appears that the colors have actually blossomed since we spoke last.   Yep, it's gotten cold up here, and things are dying & falling off.   Then there are the leaves!
    SO, Saturday seems like an ideal day to start a drive at the Burlingame SAFEWAY parking lot at Howard & El Camino at say 10:00am.   Then we motor up a block or two to Ralston, to meander on the road that parallels 280 south for an exit or two, hop on 92 West across the "lakes", up to 35 (Skyline), and head toward Alices.   If there is enough interest in naked, exposed 124 Spider doors, and there are only a few of us, we can pull off at my place and inspect my attempt at dissecting said parts.  Either way, it makes for a good pit stop; of course all PPE, masks, shields, etc.... should be in effect.   From there we can motor on to Alices, and make another pit stop if need be.
    Traversing to 84 West at the "Corners" should really start to bring in the colors as we descend out of the Redwoods, and out onto the longer, sweeping, high speed turns heading to the coast, and San Gregorio's General Store.
    Today I noticed lots of color from 92, up 35 (past the latest murder scene) to Alices.   From Alices' & the corners, there is a lot of color on 84 toward the Coast.    So here's a quick, impromptu suggestion for those looking for color, especially before any nasty weather.   I am at an all new low, and may have to resort to something out of club limits to attend, but so what.  It will most likely be the oldest buggy in attendance!   

   I will extend this offer to our brothers in the Arcane society.  Please chime in with responses to let us know what to expect, or not. 

Cordially, RF.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 10:45 PM Larry Sacks LMSacks@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

I was telling Christina tonight about your trip along 84 seeing the fall colors.  

50 Indians?  They would take up a bit less space than Spiders or X1/9s.  

Your fear of X1/9s is warranted.  If you own one, you might just want to get some others.  For a while I had 2, but am back to just 1... driving one is addictive....

Larry



On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:51 PM Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

Well, you are always welcome here for a pit stop.  And I am not against bringing the gang also.  I just need a heads up to make sure I'm home.

Your message about the two 124 personalities is spot on!   I feel myself falling in the same trap I did with the Indian Motorcycles; I needed a bike for every mood..   At one time, I had 50 Indians!   I'm afraid of trying an X19, as I fear that I will have to have one, or two?

Merry Motoring, RF.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:58 PM fiatdan fiatdan@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

Hey Fred,
After reading about your fun drive down the coast, I'm thinking I need to do that too! 
Thanks for the waking me up from my Thanksgiving food stupor.
Dan Y



Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.


-------- Original message --------
From: "Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica]" <fiatamerica@...>
Date: 11/27/20 5:44 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

 

Hi All,
    I did a blast down Skyline & 84 today during a test session on my new (new to me anyway) '82 124 Spider.   I'm impressed with the FI!   Especially since this car sat for 15 years!   New tank, new filter & pump, and I'm off!
    Anyway, from Alices' to the Coast was afire with fall colors & leaves.   There was a lot of week end types out also though.

RF.

__._,_.___

Posted by: fiatdan <fiatdan@...>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (7)
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Re: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

Red Fred
 

Hi Gang,
   Afraid that I'm a dinosaur on this computer thing, and I can't quite keep separate who I spoke to on the Fiat Chat line, and who hit me up personally.  But there was discussion of a fall colors drive in my vicinity.   It appears that the colors have actually blossomed since we spoke last.   Yep, it's gotten cold up here, and things are dying & falling off.   Then there are the leaves!
    SO, Saturday seems like an ideal day to start a drive at the Burlingame SAFEWAY parking lot at Howard & El Camino at say 10:00am.   Then we motor up a block or two to Ralston, to meander on the road that parallels 280 south for an exit or two, hop on 92 West across the "lakes", up to 35 (Skyline), and head toward Alices.   If there is enough interest in naked, exposed 124 Spider doors, and there are only a few of us, we can pull off at my place and inspect my attempt at dissecting said parts.  Either way, it makes for a good pit stop; of course all PPE, masks, shields, etc.... should be in effect.   From there we can motor on to Alices, and make another pit stop if need be.
    Traversing to 84 West at the "Corners" should really start to bring in the colors as we descend out of the Redwoods, and out onto the longer, sweeping, high speed turns heading to the coast, and San Gregorio's General Store.
    Today I noticed lots of color from 92, up 35 (past the latest murder scene) to Alices.   From Alices' & the corners, there is a lot of color on 84 toward the Coast.    So here's a quick, impromptu suggestion for those looking for color, especially before any nasty weather.   I am at an all new low, and may have to resort to something out of club limits to attend, but so what.  It will most likely be the oldest buggy in attendance!   

   I will extend this offer to our brothers in the Arcane society.  Please chime in with responses to let us know what to expect, or not. 

Cordially, RF.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 10:45 PM Larry Sacks LMSacks@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

I was telling Christina tonight about your trip along 84 seeing the fall colors.  

50 Indians?  They would take up a bit less space than Spiders or X1/9s.  

Your fear of X1/9s is warranted.  If you own one, you might just want to get some others.  For a while I had 2, but am back to just 1... driving one is addictive....

Larry



On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:51 PM Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

Well, you are always welcome here for a pit stop.  And I am not against bringing the gang also.  I just need a heads up to make sure I'm home.

Your message about the two 124 personalities is spot on!   I feel myself falling in the same trap I did with the Indian Motorcycles; I needed a bike for every mood..   At one time, I had 50 Indians!   I'm afraid of trying an X19, as I fear that I will have to have one, or two?

Merry Motoring, RF.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:58 PM fiatdan fiatdan@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

Hey Fred,
After reading about your fun drive down the coast, I'm thinking I need to do that too! 
Thanks for the waking me up from my Thanksgiving food stupor.
Dan Y



Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.


-------- Original message --------
From: "Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica]" <fiatamerica@...>
Date: 11/27/20 5:44 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

 

Hi All,
    I did a blast down Skyline & 84 today during a test session on my new (new to me anyway) '82 124 Spider.   I'm impressed with the FI!   Especially since this car sat for 15 years!   New tank, new filter & pump, and I'm off!
    Anyway, from Alices' to the Coast was afire with fall colors & leaves.   There was a lot of week end types out also though.

RF.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Larry Sacks <lmsacks@...>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (4)
Community email addresses:
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.

__,_._,___


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Fred Cisin
 

WORSE!
MUCH WORSE!

For those not familiar with those cars:
The design is absolutely, totally, a Honda parallel twin motorcycle.
The differential was designed in (as if it were going to be for a three-wheeler); the reverse gear is an addition to the side, and looks like an afterthought.

With the jugs out, you can replace the slipper guide (with a little extra work repairing the dowel pin slots), but not the tensioner. And, an opportunity to repair all of the broken 6mmx1.0 screwholes in the top end.

The pivot of the swinging arm of the cam chain tensioner roller is down in the crankcase, and it is not designed to separate the roller from the arm. You have to "split the case" (same as engine overhaul or transmission) to undo the swinging arm to put in a new one. "Pulling the top end" is nothing (done in the car) compared to splitting the case (drop the subframe to pull the engine out, and then it is usual motorcycle bottom end job.)
SOME people have tried, with varying levels of problems, to detach the roller from its swinging arm and put a new roller from a new one on.


That is one more reason why it is very important that you did the right thing and checked the cam chain and cam timing and found that it was tight and had not slipped a tooth in the chain. The teeth of the cam gear are probably worn, but you can usually get away with that.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@...

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020, Bruce Dewing via groups.io wrote:

It is because it's underneath the jugs and pulling the top end is such a PITA.  Not an issue here as the chain stretch test passed.
Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:09:26 PM PST, oddrodstjets via groups.io <oddrods@...> wrote:


If I remember correctly the cam chain tensioner is known to fail and is very difficult to replace.


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Bruce Dewing
 

It is because it's underneath the jugs and pulling the top end is such a PITA.  Not an issue here as the chain stretch test passed.

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:09:26 PM PST, oddrodstjets via groups.io <oddrods@...> wrote:


If I remember correctly the cam chain tensioner is known to fail and is very difficult to replace.


On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Ken Nelson <ArcaneAutos@groups.io> wrote:
Very strange, but there's got to be an explanation - wish I could watch the whole process - 

Ken

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 12:19 AM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Air cooled.  Separate tests about 6 seconds, watching gauge.  One head gasket.  Video camera useless, it flops around in cylinder like limp spaghetti. 

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:07:13 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

oddrodstjets <oddrods@...>
 

If I remember correctly the cam chain tensioner is known to fail and is very difficult to replace.




On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Ken Nelson <ArcaneAutos@groups.io> wrote:

Very strange, but there's got to be an explanation - wish I could watch the whole process - 

Ken

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 12:19 AM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Air cooled.  Separate tests about 6 seconds, watching gauge.  One head gasket.  Video camera useless, it flops around in cylinder like limp spaghetti. 

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:07:13 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Ken Nelson
 

Very strange, but there's got to be an explanation - wish I could watch the whole process - 

Ken

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 12:19 AM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Air cooled.  Separate tests about 6 seconds, watching gauge.  One head gasket.  Video camera useless, it flops around in cylinder like limp spaghetti. 

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:07:13 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Bruce Dewing
 

Air cooled.  Separate tests about 6 seconds, watching gauge.  One head gasket.  Video camera useless, it flops around in cylinder like limp spaghetti. 

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:07:13 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Ken Nelson
 

Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Bruce Dewing
 

My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Fred Cisin
 

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely? Is
throttleplate being held completely open during test?
And, it's variable venturi.

Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads? Is it
pushrod or OHC driving the valve? If operated by a rocker arm, is that
part worn/loose/getting stuck? lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
bent/flopping around?
overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps, rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
When did engine last run right? Or has it been stored a long time?

History?
After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance to British sports cars. "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360"). Water cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin bushings, 9.5K redline, etc. Some of the early ones had chain drives in trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production". "A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle engine design, and mini-cooper like body. It is an air-cooled paraallel twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP. I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy; he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper. The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger. The non-heater models were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972. It is a hatchback, and the glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@...


Re: N6 Compression

Fred Cisin
 

Check with miles for parts!
600miles <z600miles@...>

If you turn the engine by hand, you can watch the valves open and close. (overhead cam with rockers). When valves are closed, there should be about 0.006" valve lash. (like a VW)

Get some 6mmx1.0 nutserts. You're gonna need them. Helicoils will do, but don't hold up as well.

Get some very small left handed drill bits. And a TINY cold chisel. And
whatever other broken screw extracters you like.

Starting with: the valve cover is held on with 4 "special" 6mm bolts with 12mm heads. That means that they have been overtightened every time that anybody other than Miles or I have worked on it. If you have convenient access to a small lathe and some delrin, you could make some stepped sleeves to use regular bolts; try a washer with Phillips head or socket head caap screws - then people won't ovetighten them.

In back of the cylinders, the fan is held on by 4 long 6mm bolts. Check them, they are probably broken.

On top, the early carburetor is topped by an almost flat slightly domed piece of sheet metal that covers the diaphragm. The diaphragm is likely to be ripped. Later ones had a cast cylindrical top cover, and no diaphragm to rip.

on the left side, betwen the clutch and the transmission is the primary drive assembly. Early ones had round fubber dampers. Later ones were trapezoidal. Replace the early assembly with the later one.

looking down alng the cam chain, . . .
between the cylinders is a rubber covered slipper guide. It's probably a bit worn. It is held in place by a dowel pin laying n a groove in the top of the cylinders (under the head), and another dowl pin at the bottom. The upper dowel pin slot is probably wobbled out. You can try to fill those, or mill a longer slot.

Down below the cylinders, there is a rubber covered roller for chain tension. It's worn out. But, the pivot for it is down inside the crankcase. Some have tried to drill out the mounting of it to the swing arm, to replace it.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@...
600 guru 1972 through 1980 (almost 40 years since I worked on them)

On -1 xxx -1, 600miles wrote:
Miles
600guru since 1981

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