Date   

Re: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

Red Fred
 

Hi All,
   Looks like things are looking  good for tomorrow.   Lets try and meet and be ready for a 10:00am blast off from the Safeway parking lot at Howard & El Camino in Burlingame.  These days, it's not really cool to hang about, and this parking lot isn't the best for meeting up.   So please try and be there slightly before 10am, with us heading out at 10:10 North on El Camino for a block to Ralston, then up Ralston, which turns/blends into Chateau Drive and then actually Tees into Skyline, which is merely a frontage road at this point, running South along 280.   We then turn right at the stop sign of Hayne Road, and proceed UNDER the 280 Freeway to continue south on Skyline, but now we will be on the more scenic frontage road.   This will Tee into 92 at the "Lakes", where we make a right, heading West.    Of interest is that the "lakes" are actually the San Andreas Fault!    Then it's a quick 2.5 miles on 92 to a left turn at the Cemetery for 35 (Skyline).   There is a turn out there, and I  can pull over and wait for stragglers, but don't hang out in the road; pull over to wait.
    Then it's onward for 5.2 miles to my house if we have enough Fiat 124 Door guys, or, if not, straight on for a total of 13 miles to Alices where there is gas & porta potties.   Not really a stop at this point, as it will be crowded with all the weekenders.   So stop if you need to.   From Alices we kinda wrap around the place, and head West on 84 towards La Honda, San Gregorio & the Coast.    This stretch of 84 seemed to have a lot of color earlier this week.  Hopefully the gods are still with us on this.    I will probably stop at the  General Store in San Gregorio (they have a bar there).   Others may opt to continue to the Beach, or perhaps head south on Stage Road to Pescadero, where there is gas, and should be food (there is a deli  behind the little market there).    
   Just a quick, informal, impromptu jaunt.  There will be no maps, no fees, and no body to blame.    
   Be warned of some sudden  trash dumped along the stretch of 35 just after 92.   It seems that not only are peeps dumping their garbage, but are now dumping dead bodies; as seen in the news this week.   

Merry Motoring, RF

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:44 AM fiatdan fiatdan@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

RF,
Thanks for the suggestion on a drive to see the local fall colors in your neck of the woods and a possible viewing of your surgery skills to repair a weakened/ damaged attachment for a FIAT Spider door hinge.

Sorry to hear about your FIAT situation with a "all new low" regarding running cars. But whatever you bring, it is always welcome especially when you organize the event.  I know it will be interesting, like seeing you in a "normal" modern car, though a old buggy would be preferred! 

Sad to hear about the latest murder scene. Was that an accident on 35?
Dan Y





Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.


-------- Original message --------
From: "Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica]" <fiatamerica@...>
Date: 12/3/20 10:44 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

 

Hi Gang,
   Afraid that I'm a dinosaur on this computer thing, and I can't quite keep separate who I spoke to on the Fiat Chat line, and who hit me up personally.  But there was discussion of a fall colors drive in my vicinity.   It appears that the colors have actually blossomed since we spoke last.   Yep, it's gotten cold up here, and things are dying & falling off.   Then there are the leaves!
    SO, Saturday seems like an ideal day to start a drive at the Burlingame SAFEWAY parking lot at Howard & El Camino at say 10:00am.   Then we motor up a block or two to Ralston, to meander on the road that parallels 280 south for an exit or two, hop on 92 West across the "lakes", up to 35 (Skyline), and head toward Alices.   If there is enough interest in naked, exposed 124 Spider doors, and there are only a few of us, we can pull off at my place and inspect my attempt at dissecting said parts.  Either way, it makes for a good pit stop; of course all PPE, masks, shields, etc.... should be in effect.   From there we can motor on to Alices, and make another pit stop if need be.
    Traversing to 84 West at the "Corners" should really start to bring in the colors as we descend out of the Redwoods, and out onto the longer, sweeping, high speed turns heading to the coast, and San Gregorio's General Store.
    Today I noticed lots of color from 92, up 35 (past the latest murder scene) to Alices.   From Alices' & the corners, there is a lot of color on 84 toward the Coast.    So here's a quick, impromptu suggestion for those looking for color, especially before any nasty weather.   I am at an all new low, and may have to resort to something out of club limits to attend, but so what.  It will most likely be the oldest buggy in attendance!   

   I will extend this offer to our brothers in the Arcane society.  Please chime in with responses to let us know what to expect, or not. 

Cordially, RF.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 10:45 PM Larry Sacks LMSacks@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

I was telling Christina tonight about your trip along 84 seeing the fall colors.  

50 Indians?  They would take up a bit less space than Spiders or X1/9s.  

Your fear of X1/9s is warranted.  If you own one, you might just want to get some others.  For a while I had 2, but am back to just 1... driving one is addictive....

Larry



On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:51 PM Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

Well, you are always welcome here for a pit stop.  And I am not against bringing the gang also.  I just need a heads up to make sure I'm home.

Your message about the two 124 personalities is spot on!   I feel myself falling in the same trap I did with the Indian Motorcycles; I needed a bike for every mood..   At one time, I had 50 Indians!   I'm afraid of trying an X19, as I fear that I will have to have one, or two?

Merry Motoring, RF.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:58 PM fiatdan fiatdan@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

Hey Fred,
After reading about your fun drive down the coast, I'm thinking I need to do that too! 
Thanks for the waking me up from my Thanksgiving food stupor.
Dan Y



Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.


-------- Original message --------
From: "Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica]" <fiatamerica@...>
Date: 11/27/20 5:44 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

 

Hi All,
    I did a blast down Skyline & 84 today during a test session on my new (new to me anyway) '82 124 Spider.   I'm impressed with the FI!   Especially since this car sat for 15 years!   New tank, new filter & pump, and I'm off!
    Anyway, from Alices' to the Coast was afire with fall colors & leaves.   There was a lot of week end types out also though.

RF.

__._,_.___

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Re: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

Red Fred
 

Hi Gang,
   Afraid that I'm a dinosaur on this computer thing, and I can't quite keep separate who I spoke to on the Fiat Chat line, and who hit me up personally.  But there was discussion of a fall colors drive in my vicinity.   It appears that the colors have actually blossomed since we spoke last.   Yep, it's gotten cold up here, and things are dying & falling off.   Then there are the leaves!
    SO, Saturday seems like an ideal day to start a drive at the Burlingame SAFEWAY parking lot at Howard & El Camino at say 10:00am.   Then we motor up a block or two to Ralston, to meander on the road that parallels 280 south for an exit or two, hop on 92 West across the "lakes", up to 35 (Skyline), and head toward Alices.   If there is enough interest in naked, exposed 124 Spider doors, and there are only a few of us, we can pull off at my place and inspect my attempt at dissecting said parts.  Either way, it makes for a good pit stop; of course all PPE, masks, shields, etc.... should be in effect.   From there we can motor on to Alices, and make another pit stop if need be.
    Traversing to 84 West at the "Corners" should really start to bring in the colors as we descend out of the Redwoods, and out onto the longer, sweeping, high speed turns heading to the coast, and San Gregorio's General Store.
    Today I noticed lots of color from 92, up 35 (past the latest murder scene) to Alices.   From Alices' & the corners, there is a lot of color on 84 toward the Coast.    So here's a quick, impromptu suggestion for those looking for color, especially before any nasty weather.   I am at an all new low, and may have to resort to something out of club limits to attend, but so what.  It will most likely be the oldest buggy in attendance!   

   I will extend this offer to our brothers in the Arcane society.  Please chime in with responses to let us know what to expect, or not. 

Cordially, RF.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 10:45 PM Larry Sacks LMSacks@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

I was telling Christina tonight about your trip along 84 seeing the fall colors.  

50 Indians?  They would take up a bit less space than Spiders or X1/9s.  

Your fear of X1/9s is warranted.  If you own one, you might just want to get some others.  For a while I had 2, but am back to just 1... driving one is addictive....

Larry



On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:51 PM Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

Well, you are always welcome here for a pit stop.  And I am not against bringing the gang also.  I just need a heads up to make sure I'm home.

Your message about the two 124 personalities is spot on!   I feel myself falling in the same trap I did with the Indian Motorcycles; I needed a bike for every mood..   At one time, I had 50 Indians!   I'm afraid of trying an X19, as I fear that I will have to have one, or two?

Merry Motoring, RF.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:58 PM fiatdan fiatdan@... [fiatamerica] <fiatamerica@...> wrote:
 

Hey Fred,
After reading about your fun drive down the coast, I'm thinking I need to do that too! 
Thanks for the waking me up from my Thanksgiving food stupor.
Dan Y



Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.


-------- Original message --------
From: "Fred Johansen redfred47@... [fiatamerica]" <fiatamerica@...>
Date: 11/27/20 5:44 PM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [fiatamerica] Fall Colors; NOW!

 

Hi All,
    I did a blast down Skyline & 84 today during a test session on my new (new to me anyway) '82 124 Spider.   I'm impressed with the FI!   Especially since this car sat for 15 years!   New tank, new filter & pump, and I'm off!
    Anyway, from Alices' to the Coast was afire with fall colors & leaves.   There was a lot of week end types out also though.

RF.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Larry Sacks <lmsacks@...>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (4)
Community email addresses:
  Post message: fiatamerica@...
  Subscribe:    fiatamerica-subscribe@...
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.

__,_._,___


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Fred Cisin
 

WORSE!
MUCH WORSE!

For those not familiar with those cars:
The design is absolutely, totally, a Honda parallel twin motorcycle.
The differential was designed in (as if it were going to be for a three-wheeler); the reverse gear is an addition to the side, and looks like an afterthought.

With the jugs out, you can replace the slipper guide (with a little extra work repairing the dowel pin slots), but not the tensioner. And, an opportunity to repair all of the broken 6mmx1.0 screwholes in the top end.

The pivot of the swinging arm of the cam chain tensioner roller is down in the crankcase, and it is not designed to separate the roller from the arm. You have to "split the case" (same as engine overhaul or transmission) to undo the swinging arm to put in a new one. "Pulling the top end" is nothing (done in the car) compared to splitting the case (drop the subframe to pull the engine out, and then it is usual motorcycle bottom end job.)
SOME people have tried, with varying levels of problems, to detach the roller from its swinging arm and put a new roller from a new one on.


That is one more reason why it is very important that you did the right thing and checked the cam chain and cam timing and found that it was tight and had not slipped a tooth in the chain. The teeth of the cam gear are probably worn, but you can usually get away with that.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@...

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020, Bruce Dewing via groups.io wrote:

It is because it's underneath the jugs and pulling the top end is such a PITA.  Not an issue here as the chain stretch test passed.
Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:09:26 PM PST, oddrodstjets via groups.io <oddrods@...> wrote:


If I remember correctly the cam chain tensioner is known to fail and is very difficult to replace.


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Bruce Dewing
 

It is because it's underneath the jugs and pulling the top end is such a PITA.  Not an issue here as the chain stretch test passed.

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:09:26 PM PST, oddrodstjets via groups.io <oddrods@...> wrote:


If I remember correctly the cam chain tensioner is known to fail and is very difficult to replace.


On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Ken Nelson <ArcaneAutos@groups.io> wrote:
Very strange, but there's got to be an explanation - wish I could watch the whole process - 

Ken

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 12:19 AM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Air cooled.  Separate tests about 6 seconds, watching gauge.  One head gasket.  Video camera useless, it flops around in cylinder like limp spaghetti. 

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:07:13 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

oddrodstjets <oddrods@...>
 

If I remember correctly the cam chain tensioner is known to fail and is very difficult to replace.




On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Ken Nelson <ArcaneAutos@groups.io> wrote:

Very strange, but there's got to be an explanation - wish I could watch the whole process - 

Ken

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 12:19 AM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Air cooled.  Separate tests about 6 seconds, watching gauge.  One head gasket.  Video camera useless, it flops around in cylinder like limp spaghetti. 

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:07:13 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Ken Nelson
 

Very strange, but there's got to be an explanation - wish I could watch the whole process - 

Ken

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 12:19 AM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Air cooled.  Separate tests about 6 seconds, watching gauge.  One head gasket.  Video camera useless, it flops around in cylinder like limp spaghetti. 

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:07:13 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Bruce Dewing
 

Air cooled.  Separate tests about 6 seconds, watching gauge.  One head gasket.  Video camera useless, it flops around in cylinder like limp spaghetti. 

Bruce

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:07:13 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Ken Nelson
 

Air or water cooled?  I don't know those cars.  Variation like that seems very strange - how could it be so extremely variable - 0 to 25?  Are you spinning eng. with starter & watching each cyl pump up?  I don't follow - are cyls connected via same head gasket?  Or does each cyl have own separate gasket?  When you say first measurement gets zero psi, is that on first crank rotation, then pressure rises to 25 on next few spins?  Is this range consistent when stopped, & started again?  If so, sounds more like hole in piston - I can't imagine a leaky gasket reducing pressure to 25 psi, but rather a big hole somewhere or valve not seating all the way, 

Ken

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Bruce Dewing
 

My update for today:
Leak down tester came today.  Left side 77% and right side 80%.  Stethoscope was no help, can't hear the leak cause I'm getting old, can't hear bla bla bla.  Compression test Left 167 Right 0, then 25.
I'll cut to the chase here.  I suspect there is a head gasket leak, possibly a valve problem.  There are 4 inaccessible head nuts under the rockers next to the valve guide and another 4 (dome nuts) accessible in the cam box (torque already checked).  Looking at the reference engine (I have a few) It looks like the right nut intake side isn't down far enough.  Due to the cooling shrouds and the cooling fan, it's impossible to see the cylinder head to jug mating surface.
It's not my car, I'm helping a buddy out but this could turn out poorly.  I may take it as far as removing the rockers to check torque on the head nuts, but no further.

Bruce  
Grass Valley, Ca

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 11:08:38 AM PST, Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:


On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
> Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is
> throttleplate being held completely open during test?

And, it's variable venturi.

> Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

> ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it
> pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that
> part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
> bent/flopping around?

overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps,
rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

> Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
> other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
> When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?


> History?

After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance
to British sports cars.  "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and
even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360").  Water
cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin
bushings, 9.5K redline, etc.  Some of the early ones had chain drives in
trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production".
"A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by
individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle
engine design, and mini-cooper like body.  It is an air-cooled paraallel
twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the
rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP.  I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy;
he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen
before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper.  The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was
a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger.  The non-heater models
were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were
available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972.  It is a hatchback, and the
glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a
water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            cisin@...






Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Fred Cisin
 

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Ken Nelson wrote:
Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely? Is
throttleplate being held completely open during test?
And, it's variable venturi.

Is carb linkage working properly?
right up top, easy to hold the throttle open with your other hand.

ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads? Is it
pushrod or OHC driving the valve? If operated by a rocker arm, is that
part worn/loose/getting stuck? lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod
bent/flopping around?
overhead cam, rockers are clamped to eccentric shafts - loosen clamps, rotate shafts to get deisred lash, reclamp (careful with the torque).

Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the
other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?
no
When did engine last run right? Or has it been stored a long time?

History?
After decades of motorcycles,
in the mid 1960s, Honda made a 2 seater sports car, similar in appearance to British sports cars. "S600"/"S800", with some less common "S500" and even "S360" models, even a forward control pickup ("TN360"). Water cooled, with dual overhead cams, 4 carbs, roller crank, roller wrist pin bushings, 9.5K redline, etc. Some of the early ones had chain drives in trailing arms from the rear differential to the rear wheels.
"A design exercise that got out of hand and went into production". "A poor man's Ferrari"
Constant changes as they tinkered with the design.
Never officially imported into USA, but there are dozens brought over by individuals.


In 1969, they introduced a "tiny" car with modified motorcycle engine design, and mini-cooper like body. It is an air-cooled paraallel twin, with a motorcycle style crankcase, but with a differential at the rear of the crancase, and a reverse gear slapped onto the right side.
36HP. I showed one that was out of the car to a motorcycle salvage guy; he thought that it was some sort of Honda 3-wheeler that he hadn't seen before, and was shocked when I showed him that it came from a car.


N600 looks a little like a mini-cooper. The N360 is less common.
Some of the N360s and "Hawaiin" N600s did away with the heater, which was a clumsy piping to the side with a heat exchanger. The non-heater models were a cross flow head, with efficient routing ot the exhaust, and were available with a "sportier" cam for a claimed 45HP.
Oversized piston/cylinder sets were once available, and lowering kits.

Z600 is a "sportier" body, introduced in 1972. It is a hatchback, and the glass falls out of the rear hatch.


The air-cooled Honda 600s were replaced in 1973 by the Honda Civic, a water-cooled transverse 4 cylinder, similar to the VW Rabbit.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@...


Re: N6 Compression

Fred Cisin
 

Check with miles for parts!
600miles <z600miles@...>

If you turn the engine by hand, you can watch the valves open and close. (overhead cam with rockers). When valves are closed, there should be about 0.006" valve lash. (like a VW)

Get some 6mmx1.0 nutserts. You're gonna need them. Helicoils will do, but don't hold up as well.

Get some very small left handed drill bits. And a TINY cold chisel. And
whatever other broken screw extracters you like.

Starting with: the valve cover is held on with 4 "special" 6mm bolts with 12mm heads. That means that they have been overtightened every time that anybody other than Miles or I have worked on it. If you have convenient access to a small lathe and some delrin, you could make some stepped sleeves to use regular bolts; try a washer with Phillips head or socket head caap screws - then people won't ovetighten them.

In back of the cylinders, the fan is held on by 4 long 6mm bolts. Check them, they are probably broken.

On top, the early carburetor is topped by an almost flat slightly domed piece of sheet metal that covers the diaphragm. The diaphragm is likely to be ripped. Later ones had a cast cylindrical top cover, and no diaphragm to rip.

on the left side, betwen the clutch and the transmission is the primary drive assembly. Early ones had round fubber dampers. Later ones were trapezoidal. Replace the early assembly with the later one.

looking down alng the cam chain, . . .
between the cylinders is a rubber covered slipper guide. It's probably a bit worn. It is held in place by a dowel pin laying n a groove in the top of the cylinders (under the head), and another dowl pin at the bottom. The upper dowel pin slot is probably wobbled out. You can try to fill those, or mill a longer slot.

Down below the cylinders, there is a rubber covered roller for chain tension. It's worn out. But, the pivot for it is down inside the crankcase. Some have tried to drill out the mounting of it to the swing arm, to replace it.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@...
600 guru 1972 through 1980 (almost 40 years since I worked on them)

On -1 xxx -1, 600miles wrote:
Miles
600guru since 1981


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Ken Nelson
 

Can you tell if the valves of that cyl are seating completely?  Is throttleplate being held completely open during test?  Is carb linkage working properly?  ls valve adjusting screw loose in its threads?  Is it pushrod or OHC driving the valve?  If operated by a rocker arm, is that part worn/loose/getting stuck?  lf pushrod-operated rocker, is pushrod bent/flopping around?  Are there two springs closing valve - one inside the other - that could somehow be broken/binding on each other?  
When did engine last run right?  Or has it been stored a long time?  History?  

Ken


On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:45 AM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ken, a sticky valve may explain the symptoms. 

David, I've ordered a leak down tester on Amazon, also $25.  Valves do move.

Fred, yes cam is where it belongs.  Cam chain is acceptable, passed stretch test.

Other piston shows 137 psi consistently.  Checked head bolt torque too (only 4 of 8 are accessible with camshaft in place).  To be continued.

Bruce



On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 12:15:16 AM PST, David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:


Bruce,

I was just looking at getting a leak down tester from Harbor Ft, one on clearance for $25, Store purchase only.  OOPs, no local stores around here have any in stock.  Never thought to ask but will see if O'Reilly has them to lend.

Did a compression test yesterday on the single cylinder R27 and given the power needed to kick it over was surprised at 80 psi dry, and hardly up any with oil.  Was sad and was thinking about buying a more expensive leak-down than I need, just to track down the problem area.  Din't need a tester to ID the problem area as it was ME.  Neglected to open the throttle.  Tested today, throttle open and got 120 psi dry and didn't bother with oil as this reading is good enough

have a H FT borescope and yesterday discovered the camera/light unit is too fat to pass thru the spark plug hole.  Would not have bought the scope if I'd realized the no-fit size.  It was possible to use it to peer into the  cylinder but didn't get to see much and don't have the experience/knowledge to interpret what it showed other than the top of the piston being black and not having a hole, both of which I knew without looking.

Good luck on your cycle engine project.  Assume it is a 4 stroke so easy enough to verify that both pistons are sliding up and back, then with valve covers off the valve movement can be checked.  Leak down tester might do you a lot of good.

David

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ken,
Yes, I'm using a real compression tester (screw in). 

David,
I've ordered a leak down tester.  A couple of days out tho.

The values given are a regular compression test dry (80 lbs)  2 minutes later wet (50 lbs) then again 20 lbs, then 25 lbs, then zero.  Used a 2nd (hand held, jamb it in the hole) compression tester showing 0 psi.  Two days later, I was cranking it over with my index finger sealing the spark plug hole, with little resistance.  It's a two cylinder upright, will try again with the carb off and both plugs out.

I don't have a smart phone but do have usb video camera/cable, will give it a go.

Thanks for your input,  Bruce




On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 8:10:46 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Whatever David, but I sure wouldn't trust those nos.  Any parts store will loan a real compression tester free - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:23 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
Ken

Think he’s doing a leak down tester without a real leak down tester. First number is starting press and second is what it leaked down to. 

Did I get it right Bruce?

David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Dec 1, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Hi Bruce, this is a 2 cyl right?  Did you do a spinning compression test with plugs out, carb throttle plate full open PER cylinder, if each cyl has its own carb - then spin with starter & compression test gauge which holds pressure?  That's the only way I know to get a true reading, and many guys forget to hold the throttle wide open to allow free movement of air to cyl.  Those pressures are just too wacky to interpret from my end.   How did you get the original 80, then 50, then 20 psi to zero??  
if you did nothing more than spin engine with both plugs out, and listened to the air pumping in/out of each cyl, and they sounded definitely different, then I'd suspect burnt valve, broken rings or something - 
I once had a Citroen DS19 4 banger basically stop wanting to run when No. 1 cyl dropped to 70 psi from 140 or so.  Turned out none of the 4 pistons had complete rings, just cracked pieces in each groove, except for no. 1 piston.  That one had NO upper ring at all - just carbon-filled groove.  My leadfooted son ran it so hard the piston crown melted thru at pt above the no - ring groove, and compression dropped as result.  But ALL the remaining rings were broken but in grooves except for that first one, and I'm surprised the engine ran for over a yr at all!  

Could a hole have melted thru the piston crown?  It's been known to happen - Got a borescope for your smartphone?  I've heard they're as cheap as 20 bucks on the web - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:06 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Some advice please.  I'm helping a friend with his 71 Honda 600 sedan (you know, those motorcycle engine cars).  Compression test right side, it went from 80 psi, to 50 psi (wet) to 20 psi to 25 psi to zero psi  in 10 minutes time.  With piston at TDC, I did a hillbilly leakdown test (no leakdown gauge, just connected a 3 gallon air tank w/gauge to the cylinder).  No change with the tank gauge, listened with a mechanics stethoscope & didn't hear anything.  Then adjusted loose intake valve and pressure is now 30 psi.
Am I missing something?

Bruce
Grass Valley, CA


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Bruce Dewing
 

Ken, a sticky valve may explain the symptoms. 

David, I've ordered a leak down tester on Amazon, also $25.  Valves do move.

Fred, yes cam is where it belongs.  Cam chain is acceptable, passed stretch test.

Other piston shows 137 psi consistently.  Checked head bolt torque too (only 4 of 8 are accessible with camshaft in place).  To be continued.

Bruce



On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 12:15:16 AM PST, David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:


Bruce,

I was just looking at getting a leak down tester from Harbor Ft, one on clearance for $25, Store purchase only.  OOPs, no local stores around here have any in stock.  Never thought to ask but will see if O'Reilly has them to lend.

Did a compression test yesterday on the single cylinder R27 and given the power needed to kick it over was surprised at 80 psi dry, and hardly up any with oil.  Was sad and was thinking about buying a more expensive leak-down than I need, just to track down the problem area.  Din't need a tester to ID the problem area as it was ME.  Neglected to open the throttle.  Tested today, throttle open and got 120 psi dry and didn't bother with oil as this reading is good enough

have a H FT borescope and yesterday discovered the camera/light unit is too fat to pass thru the spark plug hole.  Would not have bought the scope if I'd realized the no-fit size.  It was possible to use it to peer into the  cylinder but didn't get to see much and don't have the experience/knowledge to interpret what it showed other than the top of the piston being black and not having a hole, both of which I knew without looking.

Good luck on your cycle engine project.  Assume it is a 4 stroke so easy enough to verify that both pistons are sliding up and back, then with valve covers off the valve movement can be checked.  Leak down tester might do you a lot of good.

David

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ken,
Yes, I'm using a real compression tester (screw in). 

David,
I've ordered a leak down tester.  A couple of days out tho.

The values given are a regular compression test dry (80 lbs)  2 minutes later wet (50 lbs) then again 20 lbs, then 25 lbs, then zero.  Used a 2nd (hand held, jamb it in the hole) compression tester showing 0 psi.  Two days later, I was cranking it over with my index finger sealing the spark plug hole, with little resistance.  It's a two cylinder upright, will try again with the carb off and both plugs out.

I don't have a smart phone but do have usb video camera/cable, will give it a go.

Thanks for your input,  Bruce




On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 8:10:46 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Whatever David, but I sure wouldn't trust those nos.  Any parts store will loan a real compression tester free - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:23 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
Ken

Think he’s doing a leak down tester without a real leak down tester. First number is starting press and second is what it leaked down to. 

Did I get it right Bruce?

David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Dec 1, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Hi Bruce, this is a 2 cyl right?  Did you do a spinning compression test with plugs out, carb throttle plate full open PER cylinder, if each cyl has its own carb - then spin with starter & compression test gauge which holds pressure?  That's the only way I know to get a true reading, and many guys forget to hold the throttle wide open to allow free movement of air to cyl.  Those pressures are just too wacky to interpret from my end.   How did you get the original 80, then 50, then 20 psi to zero??  
if you did nothing more than spin engine with both plugs out, and listened to the air pumping in/out of each cyl, and they sounded definitely different, then I'd suspect burnt valve, broken rings or something - 
I once had a Citroen DS19 4 banger basically stop wanting to run when No. 1 cyl dropped to 70 psi from 140 or so.  Turned out none of the 4 pistons had complete rings, just cracked pieces in each groove, except for no. 1 piston.  That one had NO upper ring at all - just carbon-filled groove.  My leadfooted son ran it so hard the piston crown melted thru at pt above the no - ring groove, and compression dropped as result.  But ALL the remaining rings were broken but in grooves except for that first one, and I'm surprised the engine ran for over a yr at all!  

Could a hole have melted thru the piston crown?  It's been known to happen - Got a borescope for your smartphone?  I've heard they're as cheap as 20 bucks on the web - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:06 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Some advice please.  I'm helping a friend with his 71 Honda 600 sedan (you know, those motorcycle engine cars).  Compression test right side, it went from 80 psi, to 50 psi (wet) to 20 psi to 25 psi to zero psi  in 10 minutes time.  With piston at TDC, I did a hillbilly leakdown test (no leakdown gauge, just connected a 3 gallon air tank w/gauge to the cylinder).  No change with the tank gauge, listened with a mechanics stethoscope & didn't hear anything.  Then adjusted loose intake valve and pressure is now 30 psi.
Am I missing something?

Bruce
Grass Valley, CA


N6 Compression

600miles
 

You need at least 110psi to run a honda 600. 160 is new rebuild spec. 150 is normal. Maybe your gauge is bad. I made a leak down set with an air compressor regulator and a hose from my compression tester. Dont forget to brace the crank with 17 or 22mm wrench and if doing a leak down might loosen all valves more than normal.

Some N6 have the valve seat issue where it pounds into the head and you can never keep an adjustment.

Miles

600guru since 1981


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

David Russel
 

Bruce,

I was just looking at getting a leak down tester from Harbor Ft, one on clearance for $25, Store purchase only.  OOPs, no local stores around here have any in stock.  Never thought to ask but will see if O'Reilly has them to lend.

Did a compression test yesterday on the single cylinder R27 and given the power needed to kick it over was surprised at 80 psi dry, and hardly up any with oil.  Was sad and was thinking about buying a more expensive leak-down than I need, just to track down the problem area.  Din't need a tester to ID the problem area as it was ME.  Neglected to open the throttle.  Tested today, throttle open and got 120 psi dry and didn't bother with oil as this reading is good enough

have a H FT borescope and yesterday discovered the camera/light unit is too fat to pass thru the spark plug hole.  Would not have bought the scope if I'd realized the no-fit size.  It was possible to use it to peer into the  cylinder but didn't get to see much and don't have the experience/knowledge to interpret what it showed other than the top of the piston being black and not having a hole, both of which I knew without looking.

Good luck on your cycle engine project.  Assume it is a 4 stroke so easy enough to verify that both pistons are sliding up and back, then with valve covers off the valve movement can be checked.  Leak down tester might do you a lot of good.

David


On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ken,
Yes, I'm using a real compression tester (screw in). 

David,
I've ordered a leak down tester.  A couple of days out tho.

The values given are a regular compression test dry (80 lbs)  2 minutes later wet (50 lbs) then again 20 lbs, then 25 lbs, then zero.  Used a 2nd (hand held, jamb it in the hole) compression tester showing 0 psi.  Two days later, I was cranking it over with my index finger sealing the spark plug hole, with little resistance.  It's a two cylinder upright, will try again with the carb off and both plugs out.

I don't have a smart phone but do have usb video camera/cable, will give it a go.

Thanks for your input,  Bruce




On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 8:10:46 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Whatever David, but I sure wouldn't trust those nos.  Any parts store will loan a real compression tester free - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:23 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
Ken

Think he’s doing a leak down tester without a real leak down tester. First number is starting press and second is what it leaked down to. 

Did I get it right Bruce?

David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Dec 1, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Hi Bruce, this is a 2 cyl right?  Did you do a spinning compression test with plugs out, carb throttle plate full open PER cylinder, if each cyl has its own carb - then spin with starter & compression test gauge which holds pressure?  That's the only way I know to get a true reading, and many guys forget to hold the throttle wide open to allow free movement of air to cyl.  Those pressures are just too wacky to interpret from my end.   How did you get the original 80, then 50, then 20 psi to zero??  
if you did nothing more than spin engine with both plugs out, and listened to the air pumping in/out of each cyl, and they sounded definitely different, then I'd suspect burnt valve, broken rings or something - 
I once had a Citroen DS19 4 banger basically stop wanting to run when No. 1 cyl dropped to 70 psi from 140 or so.  Turned out none of the 4 pistons had complete rings, just cracked pieces in each groove, except for no. 1 piston.  That one had NO upper ring at all - just carbon-filled groove.  My leadfooted son ran it so hard the piston crown melted thru at pt above the no - ring groove, and compression dropped as result.  But ALL the remaining rings were broken but in grooves except for that first one, and I'm surprised the engine ran for over a yr at all!  

Could a hole have melted thru the piston crown?  It's been known to happen - Got a borescope for your smartphone?  I've heard they're as cheap as 20 bucks on the web - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:06 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Some advice please.  I'm helping a friend with his 71 Honda 600 sedan (you know, those motorcycle engine cars).  Compression test right side, it went from 80 psi, to 50 psi (wet) to 20 psi to 25 psi to zero psi  in 10 minutes time.  With piston at TDC, I did a hillbilly leakdown test (no leakdown gauge, just connected a 3 gallon air tank w/gauge to the cylinder).  No change with the tank gauge, listened with a mechanics stethoscope & didn't hear anything.  Then adjusted loose intake valve and pressure is now 30 psi.
Am I missing something?

Bruce
Grass Valley, CA


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Ken Nelson
 

Bruce, how does other cyl compare??  If chain jumped as Fred suggested, both valves/cyls should be effected similarly, yes?  

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 10:13 PM Fred Cisin <cisin@...> wrote:
The cam is chain driven.
Check to see if the chain has slipped a link or two on the cam sprocket.

(Is the cam timing correct?)










Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Fred Cisin
 

The cam is chain driven.
Check to see if the chain has slipped a link or two on the cam sprocket.

(Is the cam timing correct?)


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Ken Nelson
 

Another thought Bruce:  I once started an engine which had sat over the winter in Chicago.  When I first cranked it over in spring, I heard immediately two loud "clanks", then stopped the process.  Turned engine over by hand (crankable Citroen), and got no noise.  2000 miles later, halfway home from Disneyworld to Chitown, stopped, had lunch, moved car, started & sounded like rod had let go.  
Long story short, pulled entire drivetrain - engine/trans - ran on floor, same noise.  Pulled pan, checked all bearings, nothing.  pulled head, found pieces of intake valve guide on top of valve in no. 3 cyl. 
A valve had hung open from rust just as I first started engine, but came loose, made no more noise and car ran like top.  The valve had been nicked by piston, just enough to bend it a hair, and side force on guide had fatigued it til it split off base, then hammering on valve head, split in half!  Pieces being too large to go thru port, that saved the head.  I fished out, found Toyota guide same dimensions, replaced, shop banged valve straight, trued seat, l never had to change it & made it 900 miles home.  

SO - maybe you've got a sticking valve that varies in its stickiness, so varies opening to give you erratic pressure readings, then hangs completely - can you pull valve cover & check stem position?  That's the only thing that makes any sense here - or broken spring?  Lost keeper?  Let us know what you find - this one is curious! 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:44 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ken,
Yes, I'm using a real compression tester (screw in). 

David,
I've ordered a leak down tester.  A couple of days out tho.

The values given are a regular compression test dry (80 lbs)  2 minutes later wet (50 lbs) then again 20 lbs, then 25 lbs, then zero.  Used a 2nd (hand held, jamb it in the hole) compression tester showing 0 psi.  Two days later, I was cranking it over with my index finger sealing the spark plug hole, with little resistance.  It's a two cylinder upright, will try again with the carb off and both plugs out.

I don't have a smart phone but do have usb video camera/cable, will give it a go.

Thanks for your input,  Bruce




On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 8:10:46 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Whatever David, but I sure wouldn't trust those nos.  Any parts store will loan a real compression tester free - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:23 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
Ken

Think he’s doing a leak down tester without a real leak down tester. First number is starting press and second is what it leaked down to. 

Did I get it right Bruce?

David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Dec 1, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Hi Bruce, this is a 2 cyl right?  Did you do a spinning compression test with plugs out, carb throttle plate full open PER cylinder, if each cyl has its own carb - then spin with starter & compression test gauge which holds pressure?  That's the only way I know to get a true reading, and many guys forget to hold the throttle wide open to allow free movement of air to cyl.  Those pressures are just too wacky to interpret from my end.   How did you get the original 80, then 50, then 20 psi to zero??  
if you did nothing more than spin engine with both plugs out, and listened to the air pumping in/out of each cyl, and they sounded definitely different, then I'd suspect burnt valve, broken rings or something - 
I once had a Citroen DS19 4 banger basically stop wanting to run when No. 1 cyl dropped to 70 psi from 140 or so.  Turned out none of the 4 pistons had complete rings, just cracked pieces in each groove, except for no. 1 piston.  That one had NO upper ring at all - just carbon-filled groove.  My leadfooted son ran it so hard the piston crown melted thru at pt above the no - ring groove, and compression dropped as result.  But ALL the remaining rings were broken but in grooves except for that first one, and I'm surprised the engine ran for over a yr at all!  

Could a hole have melted thru the piston crown?  It's been known to happen - Got a borescope for your smartphone?  I've heard they're as cheap as 20 bucks on the web - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:06 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Some advice please.  I'm helping a friend with his 71 Honda 600 sedan (you know, those motorcycle engine cars).  Compression test right side, it went from 80 psi, to 50 psi (wet) to 20 psi to 25 psi to zero psi  in 10 minutes time.  With piston at TDC, I did a hillbilly leakdown test (no leakdown gauge, just connected a 3 gallon air tank w/gauge to the cylinder).  No change with the tank gauge, listened with a mechanics stethoscope & didn't hear anything.  Then adjusted loose intake valve and pressure is now 30 psi.
Am I missing something?

Bruce
Grass Valley, CA


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Bruce Dewing
 

Ken,
Yes, I'm using a real compression tester (screw in). 

David,
I've ordered a leak down tester.  A couple of days out tho.

The values given are a regular compression test dry (80 lbs)  2 minutes later wet (50 lbs) then again 20 lbs, then 25 lbs, then zero.  Used a 2nd (hand held, jamb it in the hole) compression tester showing 0 psi.  Two days later, I was cranking it over with my index finger sealing the spark plug hole, with little resistance.  It's a two cylinder upright, will try again with the carb off and both plugs out.

I don't have a smart phone but do have usb video camera/cable, will give it a go.

Thanks for your input,  Bruce




On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 8:10:46 PM PST, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Whatever David, but I sure wouldn't trust those nos.  Any parts store will loan a real compression tester free - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:23 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
Ken

Think he’s doing a leak down tester without a real leak down tester. First number is starting press and second is what it leaked down to. 

Did I get it right Bruce?

David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Dec 1, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Hi Bruce, this is a 2 cyl right?  Did you do a spinning compression test with plugs out, carb throttle plate full open PER cylinder, if each cyl has its own carb - then spin with starter & compression test gauge which holds pressure?  That's the only way I know to get a true reading, and many guys forget to hold the throttle wide open to allow free movement of air to cyl.  Those pressures are just too wacky to interpret from my end.   How did you get the original 80, then 50, then 20 psi to zero??  
if you did nothing more than spin engine with both plugs out, and listened to the air pumping in/out of each cyl, and they sounded definitely different, then I'd suspect burnt valve, broken rings or something - 
I once had a Citroen DS19 4 banger basically stop wanting to run when No. 1 cyl dropped to 70 psi from 140 or so.  Turned out none of the 4 pistons had complete rings, just cracked pieces in each groove, except for no. 1 piston.  That one had NO upper ring at all - just carbon-filled groove.  My leadfooted son ran it so hard the piston crown melted thru at pt above the no - ring groove, and compression dropped as result.  But ALL the remaining rings were broken but in grooves except for that first one, and I'm surprised the engine ran for over a yr at all!  

Could a hole have melted thru the piston crown?  It's been known to happen - Got a borescope for your smartphone?  I've heard they're as cheap as 20 bucks on the web - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:06 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Some advice please.  I'm helping a friend with his 71 Honda 600 sedan (you know, those motorcycle engine cars).  Compression test right side, it went from 80 psi, to 50 psi (wet) to 20 psi to 25 psi to zero psi  in 10 minutes time.  With piston at TDC, I did a hillbilly leakdown test (no leakdown gauge, just connected a 3 gallon air tank w/gauge to the cylinder).  No change with the tank gauge, listened with a mechanics stethoscope & didn't hear anything.  Then adjusted loose intake valve and pressure is now 30 psi.
Am I missing something?

Bruce
Grass Valley, CA


Re: I got the no/low compression blues

Ken Nelson
 

Whatever David, but I sure wouldn't trust those nos.  Any parts store will loan a real compression tester free - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:23 PM David Russel <djrussel@...> wrote:
Ken

Think he’s doing a leak down tester without a real leak down tester. First number is starting press and second is what it leaked down to. 

Did I get it right Bruce?

David 

Sent From Mobile Phone

On Dec 1, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Ken Nelson <citbuff@...> wrote:


Hi Bruce, this is a 2 cyl right?  Did you do a spinning compression test with plugs out, carb throttle plate full open PER cylinder, if each cyl has its own carb - then spin with starter & compression test gauge which holds pressure?  That's the only way I know to get a true reading, and many guys forget to hold the throttle wide open to allow free movement of air to cyl.  Those pressures are just too wacky to interpret from my end.   How did you get the original 80, then 50, then 20 psi to zero??  
if you did nothing more than spin engine with both plugs out, and listened to the air pumping in/out of each cyl, and they sounded definitely different, then I'd suspect burnt valve, broken rings or something - 
I once had a Citroen DS19 4 banger basically stop wanting to run when No. 1 cyl dropped to 70 psi from 140 or so.  Turned out none of the 4 pistons had complete rings, just cracked pieces in each groove, except for no. 1 piston.  That one had NO upper ring at all - just carbon-filled groove.  My leadfooted son ran it so hard the piston crown melted thru at pt above the no - ring groove, and compression dropped as result.  But ALL the remaining rings were broken but in grooves except for that first one, and I'm surprised the engine ran for over a yr at all!  

Could a hole have melted thru the piston crown?  It's been known to happen - Got a borescope for your smartphone?  I've heard they're as cheap as 20 bucks on the web - 

Ken

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:06 PM Bruce Dewing via groups.io <tralfaz42=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Some advice please.  I'm helping a friend with his 71 Honda 600 sedan (you know, those motorcycle engine cars).  Compression test right side, it went from 80 psi, to 50 psi (wet) to 20 psi to 25 psi to zero psi  in 10 minutes time.  With piston at TDC, I did a hillbilly leakdown test (no leakdown gauge, just connected a 3 gallon air tank w/gauge to the cylinder).  No change with the tank gauge, listened with a mechanics stethoscope & didn't hear anything.  Then adjusted loose intake valve and pressure is now 30 psi.
Am I missing something?

Bruce
Grass Valley, CA

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