Date   

Re: Digest Number 589

Roger Vise
 

Allen, I just got back from Dean`s can you send a Picture of the Lloyd in
action to me off the list.
It came up in several conversations.
I am trying to buy a place not far from him.
Roger


Re: Borgward-Goliath

facelnut <alananddeb@...>
 

Dick, Carter,

This is great stuff. You guys have a tremendous amount of arcane
knowledge. I am developing a new esteem for my poor Lloyd. Engine
smokes like a fiend, but now that you mention it, does seem to scoot
pretty good.

BTW Dick, I was not the least bit offended by "bottom feeder"; my
reference to your remark was meant to be humorous!? You are too kind.

Great weather in Mendo County today, I think I'll take the Llyod out
for a run.

Best, Alan


trailer for sale

captainmarco@...
 

Hi arcane group I have a Trailer for sale.
Utility Trailer 5x10 with sides 2ft high made of steel with wood floors.Good
tires working lights.Has been used for trips to Burning Man and hualing small
cars, motor cycles,moving furniture and garden supplies, loads of manure!This
is a good road triler that can be pulled by car or small truck. Phone
captainmarco 415 8682940 or cell 4159871942 $600


Re: ] Digest Number 587

Stephen G Cooper <sg-c@...>
 

After reading the 10 letters in digest 587 I have the following concerns:

Firstly, is it a PEEL or MESHERSMIDT (pardon my atrocious spelling there) that Monster Garage placed a Suzuki engine into?

Secondly, I too was told by the new kid on the block at Bay Area Back Roads that the proposed airdate of OUR episode was to be in February when I called them back in November, but thanks to Byron we now have an actual date in February..............get all those video recorders stocked up and humming and maybe just one of us will : remember; be home; have power; be aware of and able; to record the show and duplicate it for those of us unable to do so.

I said the new kid on the block for the woman who gave me her card that date is no longer connected with the show...........

Lastly, I would like anyone reading this to drive by my house in Santa Cruz any day from now until after New Years to partake of my Christmas decorations. As the proud owner of one of the tallest houses in Santa Cruz (5 stories high) my wreath on the top floor is easily visible from the wharf, East Cliff Drive and from the harbour some 4 miles away.

If you care to, knock loudly at the front door, door bell doesn't work, (better yet call on your cell phone) and announce you are from the Arcane_autos on yahoo and you'll receive a glass of egg nog for your trouble.

I live on West Cliff Drive just up from the wharf, and 50 feet from the corner of Bay Street................

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

Stephen Cooper


Re: Borgward-Goliath

Dick Tuttle
 

Sorry, by bottom feeder I meant that the Lloyd was the lowest cost car of the
concern's lineup. When I was 18 years old I worked for a Lloyd dealer and
was sent to factory mechanic's school for Lloyd in San Francisco where I became
an expert on the Alexander TS (in just 3 days!). I have great esteem for
these cars and ended up owning several. The TS was fast and durable and could
outrun and outlast any other stock 600cc car, including the much later Honda 600.
My wife got her first driver's license in one, a TS wagon I drove for many
years. I also had both long and short wheelbase LTs and a pickup version.
These did have wooden coach built bodies which rotted away eventually. The
Alexanders were all steel but the body panels were nearly all bolted together and
must have been labor intensive to assemble. The engines were nicely done with
roller cranks. Wherever bolts went into the alloy castings, there were cast-in
steel inserts to prevent stripping, again difficult to manufacture. Lloyd
600s are good...but then I hardly ever met a car I didn't like.

Dick Tuttle


Re: Borgward-Goliath

Carter Willey <metric@...>
 

17-Dec-04 21:37:14, Alan a crit:

Did someone say "bottom feeder"? It just so happens I have a Lloyd
LT 600. Very cute, and I love it; but for sure built on a shoestring.
The LT 600 and related light trucks weren't nearly so 'bottom' as the Goli and
Tempo Dreirad (three-wheeled) light trucks, and even the Goggo van was spartan by
comparison to the Lloyd. While some of the three-wheelers had somewhat higher
payloads, the little Lloyds offered more comfort and much higher cruising speeds.
And the four-stroke SOHC engine in the Lloyd was a technical masterpiece, making
the engines in the Goli and Tempo look very crude indeed.

And the central-tube chassis of all these Lloyds was quite advanced.

But the LT 600, like other Lloyds of the 'fifties, had its roots solidly in old
technology, especially regarding the body. Much of the Lloyd light-truck was
wood-framed, covered with steel, just a small step from the 'Leukoplastbomber'
fabric covering of the preceeding models.

There was a fascinating array of German light trucks available during this time.
Tempos from Vidal & Sohn were strong competition for the LKW part of the Borgward
group. The Tempo Dreirad (arguably the longest-production car ever) was
technically more advanced than the Goli, and the Tempo Wiking was at least as
advanced as the LT 600, though different in conception.

Exciting times.


carter


Re: Borgward-Goliath

facelnut <alananddeb@...>
 

Did someone say "bottom feeder"? It just so happens I have a Lloyd
LT 600. Very cute, and I love it; but for sure built on a shoestring.

Cheers, Alan


Re: Borgward-Goliath

Carter Willey <metric@...>
 

17-Dec-04 2:05:44 PM, Warren a crit:

Carter and Dick,

"Thankyou" both for your answers to my Borgward-Goliath question. I
had no idea the Hansa and Lloyd lines were Borgward products, too.
In the end, Borgward moved production to Mexico, most likely to take
advantage of the lower labor costs there.
Borgward did not move production to Mexico; the tooling was sold to a Mexican
concern which produced Borgward-like cars (Borgward Azetca) for a time.

What finally did them in,
according to stories at the time, was that Borgward's owner used up
the company's profits in an ill-fated racing car program. Is that
true, or am I out in left-field again?
I'd not heard that.

The story I've heard all my life, and that's alluded to in the final paragraphs
here
http://home.arcor.de/weisshauptr/g_borgward/geschichte.htm
is that influences by other automotive interests (read BMW) within the German
government forced Borgward into bankruptcy.

Possible proof of this is that once Borgward was liquidated, all their creditors
were paid in full out of the proceeds of the liquidation. This sounds to me like
a non-definition of bankruptcy.

A more in-depth Borgward history appears in German here:
http://www.borgward-ig.de/d/index.htm (select 'Geschichte' at the top of the
page), imperfectly translated into English on links from this page:
http://www.borgward-ig.de/e/eindex.htm .

I especially recommend the comments at the end of the article:
http://www.borgward-ig.de/e/history.htm


carter


Re: Borgward-Goliath

comftntrtl
 

Carter and Dick,

"Thankyou" both for your answers to my Borgward-Goliath question. I
had no idea the Hansa and Lloyd lines were Borgward products, too.
In the end, Borgward moved production to Mexico, most likely to take
advantage of the lower labor costs there. What finally did them in,
according to stories at the time, was that Borgward's owner used up
the company's profits in an ill-fated racing car program. Is that
true, or am I out in left-field again?

My mom still refers to her '58 Borgward as her "Little Mercedes"...

Thanks again,
Warren


Re: Borgward-Goliath

Carter Willey <metric@...>
 

16-Dec-04 17:40:18,Warren a crit:

Someone on another group said that the German Goliath was built by
Borgward. Is that so? I think Borgward may have bought Goliath
when they went under, but they weren't sold here thru the same
dealerships, way back when...

Does anyone want to up-date me on the Borgward/Goliath relationship?
If you can handle German, there's a concise history of Borgward here:
http://home.arcor.de/weisshauptr/g_borgward/geschichte.htm ,
of Goliath here:
http://home.arcor.de/weisshauptr/g_goliath/ggeschichte.htm

This account shows that the Goliath three-wheeled light truck was at first a
model of Borgward, only later being presented as a separate make. Goliaths were
always and ever produced by Borgward.

The Hansa and Lloyd companies were founded in Bremen in 1906; Hansa absorbed
Lloyd in 1914. Borgward-Goliath took over Hansa-Lloyd in 1929.

All four names, (Lloyd, Goliath, Hansa and Borgward) were applied to post-war
cars in a scheme similar to that of GM: separate brands under one corporate
umbrella.

The early post-war Goliath was probably a development of the Gutbrod Superior,
the first series-production car to have Bosch fuel injection. The later 1100cc
flat four Goliath (later the design was used by Subaru) was sold as the Hansa in
some markets.

Unlike GM cars, the three main branches of the postwar Borgward families (Lloyd,
Goliath/Hansa and Borgward) followed very different technical paths: the each
make was unique in concept and realisation.


carter


Borgward-Goliath

comftntrtl
 

Question,

Someone on another group said that the German Goliath was built by
Borgward. Is that so? I think Borgward may have bought Goliath
when they went under, but they weren't sold here thru the same
dealerships, way back when...

Does anyone want to up-date me on the Borgward/Goliath relationship?

Are there any Goliath Owners in our group? I know we have at least
on Borgwarder.

A co-worker friend of mine had a Goliath back in the mid-1960's. It
was a pretty good little car, but wasn't as good as my mom's '58
Borgward.

Just askin',
Warren


Re: Borgward-Goliath

Dick Tuttle
 

Lloyd-Hansa GMBH produced three makes, Borgward, the top line, Goliath, the
middle class, and Lloyd, the bottom feeder, in Bremen. The last Goliaths that
came here were called Hansa. When the company folded, Borgward production
equipment was moved to Monterrey, Mexico, where some 6 cylinder cars were
produced, mostly for taxi use by a company called Impulsora Automotriz SA, but they
couldn't compete on the market with VW and the American cars there. While the
company's products were good, they were expensive to build being very labor
intensive. The Goliath line disappeared, but the Lloyd Arabella went to Japan
where it became the basis of the Subaru 4 cylinder opposed cars. Subaru
continues to make the boxer type of engine today, though I doubt much of the Lloyd
design is left, other than the layout.

Dick Tuttle


1968 Opel Kadette

nealryan2000 <neal.g.ryan@...>
 

Someone should get this car. I bought a 1967 FIAT 850 Spider from
this guy and looked at the Opel. The body is in nice shape and it's
all there. Some surface rust, I didn't notice any structural rust.
It's cheap also. No connection to the seller. I would hate to see
this car get crushed.

http://www.craigslist.org/eby/car/51446212.html


Neal


Re: Digest Number 586

Byron W. Brill <B_Brill@...>
 

Absolutely no offense taken, and if so inferred in my original mail, please erase all such intimations. And I very much appreciate the extra "E" ...

Fact is, I'm so often behind that I've almost made it back around the other side to being caught up. So your on-going patience with my plodding pace is much appreciated. Since time seems to always be at a premium, either newsletters get out with less advance notice of an event than would be ideal, or several events may be listed in a single newsletter going out a month or more. And I realize that our high priced newsletter packaging, typically consisting of a folded and stapled page, can look like junk mail. But stuffing envelopes can double our 'packaging time' as well as adding costs, so we kept to our original method, except when a mailing might involve several pages. David's method of adding dates to your calendar when the newsletter is received is probably your best assurance of not missing an event, provided the newsletter hasn't already joined all those low cost mortgage and credit card offers in the recycling bin...

Byron

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen G Cooper
To: Arcane_autos@...
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Arcane_autos] Digest Number 586



Thanks once again to esteeemed leader (note extra E in due respect) for his forthright reply and posting. In no way did I mean to offend nor imply that he was not doing a good and thorough job.



I did receive the newletter by during the month of November I was in Hilo, Ha for a week and in Northampton, England for two weeks and did not re-ensconce myself back in Santa Cruz until November 26th at which time there was a pile of mail to go through AFTER Thanksgiving..............that explains that.

I am not a very organised person it turns out and if I want to enjoy the many organised ventures of the Club I shall have to find a better way.................eh what?

sgc







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Re: Monster Garage Rumor

Byron W. Brill <B_Brill@...>
 

Thanks for passing along the info about Monster Garage and their planned Frankenstein-ing of the unsuspecting Messerschmitt. Since their air date is sometime in February, it isn't a foregone conclusion, however, that they will beat us to the air. I can now report with some authority that the Arcane Auto Society's appearance on Bay Area Backroads will air on Sunday February 13 during the show to be broadcast at 5:30 p.m. on KRON 4. We may still beat Monster Garage to the airwaves!

BTW, you're not confusing huzzahs with strawberries, are you?

Byron

----- Original Message -----
From: David Russel
To: Arcane_autos@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: [Arcane_autos] Re: Monster Garage Rumor


Hey all,

pulled the bit below from another list and thought it might be of interest. Looks like they are going to beat us to the airwaves

but first, 3 huzzah's for Byron for clearing up the fog concerning ammouncements.

David

"Subject: Monster Garage


I just received a call from someone whose brother was at the set of
the Monster Garage show. Seems Jesse James has stooped to a new low,
as in build team that is. This group of builders are all midgets....
and their project?, a supercharged Japanese powered Messerschmitt. I
figure the influence of attending the National Microcar Meet in Ca.
must have had Jesse thinking the last couple of months. Flattery or
mockery toward our group is yet to be seen. Show date is set for Feb."


JW

Sincerely,
David


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Re: Digest Number 586

Stephen G Cooper <sg-c@...>
 

Thanks once again to esteeemed leader (note extra E in due respect) for his forthright reply and posting. In no way did I mean to offend nor imply that he was not doing a good and thorough job.



I did receive the newletter by during the month of November I was in Hilo, Ha for a week and in Northampton, England for two weeks and did not re-ensconce myself back in Santa Cruz until November 26th at which time there was a pile of mail to go through AFTER Thanksgiving..............that explains that.

I am not a very organised person it turns out and if I want to enjoy the many organised ventures of the Club I shall have to find a better way.................eh what?

sgc


Re: Monster Garage Rumor

Dick Tuttle
 

The story I hear is that after sitting in my Peel and discussing it in Long
Beach, Jesse was so impressed that he went to England and bought body shells
from Andy's Modern Micros and is going to do a show around building a hotrod
version of a Peel Trident. We will see what develops.

Dick Tuttle


Re: Monster Garage Rumor

David Russel <djrussel@...>
 

Hey all,

pulled the bit below from another list and thought it might be of interest. Looks like they are going to beat us to the airwaves

but first, 3 huzzah's for Byron for clearing up the fog concerning ammouncements.

David

"Subject: Monster Garage


I just received a call from someone whose brother was at the set of
the Monster Garage show. Seems Jesse James has stooped to a new low,
as in build team that is. This group of builders are all midgets....
and their project?, a supercharged Japanese powered Messerschmitt. I
figure the influence of attending the National Microcar Meet in Ca.
must have had Jesse thinking the last couple of months. Flattery or
mockery toward our group is yet to be seen. Show date is set for Feb."


JW

Sincerely,
David


Re: Toyota Starlet

Chris Fugate
 

I live in Santa Cruz and work in San Francisco (in the shadow of
Monster Park). The car in question is a lovely canary yellow with
velour leopard-print seat covers. It looks like somebody's semi-
daily driver, and it has definitely not gotten a lot of attention. I
guess I should scoop it up before some crazy kid turns it into a hot
rod.

I've also got a 1981 Toyota Corolla, a real beast compared to the
tiny Starlet.

I guess they are a little better known than I thought, and
desirable, which accounts for their rarity.

I'll try to locate the owner and probe for selling interest, but
that will have to wait until after I've gotten the rear window
replaced in the Bond (hopefully in time for the Annual Meeting).

Thanks for all the replies!

Best,

Chris
'65 Bond Equipe GT4S

--- In Arcane_autos@..., "nealryan2000"
<neal.g.ryan@l...> wrote:

Hi Chris,

I don't know where you are located but in northern Ca.(San
Francisco
bay area to be exact) the Starlets' are very desirable autocross
cars. They are front engine/rear drive, light weight and most of
the
guys put the 4AG twincam in them.

I can send some pictures if you like.

Neal


Re: Digest Number 584

Byron W. Brill <B_Brill@...>
 

Hi all,

Having just returned from a couple of days away, I can now put to rest for one and all the issue of why event reminders are not posted on the Arcane Yahoo Group. All "Official Arcane Events" are ALWAYS announced via a hard copy snail-mailed newsletter. Granted, our newsletters may not (and are often ARE not) timely, but you are assured of getting at LEAST a few days' notice of an upcoming event. Believe it or not, a sizeable segment of our membership either does not have internet access or don't bother with e-mail. Snail mail is the great equalizer to insure all our members get notification of events. If I have time, and the requisite brain cells to remember (a highly unreliable combination of events), I will also e-mail a reminder to the Arcane e-mail list of MEMBERS. This list is separate and distinct from the Arcane Group of Yahoos, as it is sometimes referred to by our esteemed moderator. Again, if I or our webmeister can remember, we will also post an event & its date on the Arcane Website, but without details. But I don't typically put an announcement on the Yahoo Group. The only exception to this is an open event, such as our Annual Business Meeting.

The reason for this highly secretive behavior is simple. The Arcane Yahoo Group is an open group of unusual car enthusiasts from all over the country and, perhaps, beyond. The Arcane Auto Society is a club of dues paying members. Why would someone want to become a dues paying member? Why, to be informed of and to be able to attend Official Club Events, of course. Otherwise, why have a Club? Now this is not to say we don't want non-members to attend our events. We most definitely do, and we encourage our members to bring along friends and enthusiasts to almost any gathering they may so desire so that we might expand our ranks. And we make it a point to invite a wide group of non-members to our Annual Business Meeting so they can get a flavor of the Club to see if they want to join us. But bottom line, this is a Club, after all. It's not exclusive, nor is it discriminatory. Discerning, perhaps, as it takes a certain discerning taste to enjoy our particular brand of automotive silliness. Hope that answers the question. Oh, and as to the annual Christmas gathering up at Skagg's Point above Woodside, it was announced in our November 2004 newsletter that was mailed sometime around November 18.

Byron Brill

----- Original Message -----
From: David Russel
To: Arcane_autos@...
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Arcane_autos] Re: Digest Number 584


Stephen,

The Arcane group does nothing if not to embrace diversity of opinion. A corollary is not requiring that others embrace the opinion of anyone else. In utter wirds, if it don't float your boat you don't need to leave the dock.

David, thanks for your input, but once again I must<BR>
suggest that the very thought of "checking the<BR>
website" is not something that I could ever put down<BR>
to "usual" in order to see if anything happened to be<BR>
listed.<BR>
WHAT works for me is as follows: Any time I wonder if there is an upcoming event I will look for themost recent newsletter, and when that is not to be found, I go to the website and look at the events listing. If I question the information on the site, I'll consider contacting someone and asking. If a newsletter (from any source) arrives with information about ANY event that interests me, the event goes on my calendar. i might not go, but it is unlikely to be by accident.

<BR>
In all fairness to the newsletter, Byron did a good<BR>
deed sending it out and I did scan the lists of names<BR>
and cars and did not see events though they may have<BR>
been listed (most likely were) but I was in my usual<BR>
hurry to pay all my bills and $13,000 in property<BR>
taxes.<BR>

Maybe it was listed, maybe Byron left it out. When we rely totally on the kindness of strange people, and who among us is not strange by some standards, we leave ourselves open to disappointment

<BR>
But once again, I read ALL MY EMAIL AT LEAST 2-3 TIMES<BR>
A DAY AND THIS "UNOFFICIAL" (WHY IS IT NOT USED?) <BR>
LIST'S DIGESTS COME AT LEAST TWICE PER DAY, SO IF IT<BR>
WERE UTILISED APPROPRIATELY, I could not have<BR>
continued to have "missed" the word about the upcoming<BR>
events.<BR>
<BR>

Not everyone reads their email 3 times per day. In fact, some folks have been known to access it very seldom, in which case emailed schedules would not be appropriate for them. You ask "Why is it not used" and if you mean why is this list not used as an official mechanism to communicate activities I can come up with at least two responses. #1) As this list, as a courtesy, is open to virtually anyone and is not limited to dues paying members, the Upper management MIGHT want to hold back some services to gently induce listmembers to pay dues in order to gain full services. (having said that as a theoretical, let me add that I do not think that this is the case). #2) response is that if YOU think posting events to this list is an important service then you should seriously consider uploading the information about events in the Newsletter to this list. Your doing so will serve to prove or disprove #1

BTW, the digests should only be coming One per day unless we exceed 25 messages in the digest period in which case there may be a 2nd digest sent.


Further to that end, what is the BDF that Europutt refers to on the 18th?<BR>

I do believe that this has been a answered already, more than once as I recall.

Hope this helps.
your Volunteer email list moderater
David

Sincerely,
David


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