I just received an e-mail:

Hello
I see you recommend Siblings Without Rivalry, by Adele Faber and
Elaine Mazlish at the end of:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
But these authors taught some form of communication in which
manipulation is prevalent : NVC (non violent communication), so I
don't think that's a good idea.
Best regards...


I don't own that book but read it from the la leche league library
maybe, or maybe I owned it and gave it away.

My response was
===================
I don't think it could be classic "NVC" because that's way more recent.

I'll consider removing it. I'm going to ask about it on Always
Learning to see what others who have read it more recently think.

I learned tons from Faber's "How to Listen so Kids will talk" writings
when I had toddlers.
===================

When I had toddlers I wasn't involved with unschooling and hadn't had
or ever heard of most of the thoughts I've put into that website. So
if this is a bad recommendation I should remove it, and if it's okay
to leave there, I should tell my correspondent (who was kind enough to
think to write and suggest it) why I'm keeping it. I'm not attached
one way or the other.

My toddlers all drive and have jobs and get along well, and I can't
speak to or from the use of that book because it's been so long.
What do you think?

Sandra

On Dec 3, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

When I had toddlers I wasn't involved with unschooling and hadn't had
or ever heard of most of the thoughts I've put into that website. So
if this is a bad recommendation I should remove it, and if it's okay
to leave there, I should tell my correspondent (who was kind enough to
think to write and suggest it) why I'm keeping it. I'm not attached
one way or the other.

I just reread How to Talk with a parenting group and I still find it
very good. In fact it's a great transition from conventional
approaches to more-mindful-of-children's-perspective approaches.

They definitely don't go far enough. There are definite sections
where the goal is to get the kids to comply with what the parent
wants. But there are big important chunks where the whole focus is on
helping the parent see that their kids aren't aliens and their needs
and wants and actions are coming from a legitimate place so the
parents can work with them rather than against them.

I do definitely still recommend it.

Joyce

More from the side. <g>

-=-Yes, there is the same problem with "How to listen so kids will talk", there is also : "How to talk so kids would listen" in this title :-)
I should re-read the book to give you precise examples, but it's really manipulative when you think about it.-=-

-----------------------------------------------------------------

If you're coming from a total and complete "non coercive" point of view (as in TCS in England), that might look different than it would to people who are more disturbed by "non coercion" than by normal everyday give and take. I'll put that note on the list too.

Being no-mail, you can still go in there and read the thread if you want to.

Thanks for bringing this up!

Sandra

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Although it might not be applicable in this particular situation, I'm really fascinated by the absolutist "non-coercive" group. The only "TCS" writer I knew anything about had an only child and a divorce, I think. So should people who want to live peacefully in families with a partner or another adult of some sort in the house and with more than one child really take their philosophical advice from people who have one child and an ex partner?

If I remind a person (husband, child, friend, neighbor) of a contractual obligation or moral duty, many would call that "manipulation." If I set up a situation in which they're harmed or punished by not doing what I wanted them to do, THAT is manipulation.

And "coercion" is NOT saying "please." To say "AH, you're being coercive because you asked me to do something" is extremest nonsense, in my opinion (and in the opinion of any dictionary).

Sandra

I have those books and they have nothing to do with NVC. I recommend them.
They are very helpful.
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

***I just reread How to Talk with a parenting group and I still find it
very good. In fact it's a great transition from conventional
approaches to more-mindful- of-children' s-perspective approaches.***

Since this is the only book of theirs that I've read, I'll comment on that.  I'd have to agree that it's a good book to put out there.  What I found especially useful about it, is that it IS more conventional, and it helped me to relay information to more conventional parents in a way that still kept respect for the child in the forefront.

It doesn't go far enough, you're right there.  School is still present in the mix.  Still, it's a very useful book for transition.  I gave my copy away to someone who probably never read it.  In my mind I imagine it got left at his girlfriend's house, who has since moved on and gotten married and just had her own kids, so maybe, just maybe, she's using it.  That's what I'd like to think anyway, it could be in a landfill instead though.

I don't remember that book using NVC as a tool for communication.  Perhaps it's been too long since I read it.  Sandra, you did put a disclaimer up there next to the book recommendation that it was outside the unschooling realm.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, that was me sending an email and I'm from France. So, for example when they say "let children make choices" (in images p140 in my edition), the choices are "are you in the mood for your grey pants or your red pants?" meaning "put your pants whatever color it is... "Would uou like half a glass of juice or a whole?" meaning you have to drink something or one more, the best one : "what would work best for ? Doing your practice before dinner or after?" meaning... No choice : you have to practice. I'm reading again this book to find other clear examples, but to me, it explains what you can do in order to make your kids do what YOU want. It seems nice at first because it tells you that your child is really person whereas it denies him/her this status alltogether. So, the kid can go from : "what I want is not important" (before the book is read by parents) to "what I want is still not important but my parents think they are very kind about what I want and so certainly hope that I be very grateful". It prevents parents to rethink if what they demand is really so important and the kids become crazy because before : they knew they had to do what their parents say and after: they feel they have no choice whereas their parents want to believe they give them a choice. Crazy, no?
Nathalie, mother of two, 6 and 3, from France

I found these books to very useful in helping me change the way I spoke to my children. While not an unschooling style--I actually liken them to workbooks--through reading and re-reading certain portions of these books, I was able to practice over and over how to relay my voice to my children in a manner that was not controlling, coercive, demanding, demeaning, or threatening. I found them to be remarkable stepping stones towards becoming the parent I strive to be. Without those books, I may have continued to rely on book sources that provided far worse methods of communicating.

***If I remind a person (husband, child, friend, neighbor) of a
contractual obligation or moral duty, many would call that
"manipulation. " If I set up a situation in which they're harmed or
punished by not doing what I wanted them to do, THAT is manipulation.

And "coercion" is NOT saying "please." To say "AH, you're being
coercive because you asked me to do something" is extremest nonsense,
in my opinion (and in the opinion of any dictionary).***
 
The other day Margaux really wanted to use the DS.  It belongs to Chamille, she bought it with money she saved up for many months.  Chamille used to let Margaux use it a lot, I'd even go so far as to say they shared it.  They've even purchased a game together so that they could both play it.  Lately though, Chamille's been using it a lot.  She has some new games for it that she's purchased on her own and she's been on a bit of a Pokemon revival.  Margaux has felt the loss of being able to freely use it.
 
The other day we asked Chamille if Margaux could use it and Chamille said "no", even though she herself wasn't using it.  It caused a huge fight.  A bit later, I reminded Chamille that she used to readily share it with her sister and that she'd gotten used to it being shared, enough so, that she had used her own money to help purchase a game for it that Chamille wanted more than Margaux did.  Initially Chamille was mad about that conversation because she said I was making her feel bad.  I'm keenly aware of the fact that many parents would most definitely say these kinds of things in a manipulative way, but that wasn't my intent at all.  My intent was to share Margaux's perspective with her in a way that didn't involve Margaux screaming and crying that her sister was being mean, because that never goes anywhere with Chamille, if anything, it ends the discussion right then and there with a firm "no way, never, no how, leave me alone, you are being
annoying".
 
I was defininitely trying to get Chamille to let Margaux use the DS.  What I wasn't doing was trying to force or manipulate, I was trying to kindly share information and make it so both parties could come to a mutual agreement that would make everyone happy.  Right now, at their ages and stages, they aren't able to do this without parental involvement.  We all know that the DS belongs to Chamille, we all know that Margaux could really use one of her own and that the best solution would be for Margaux to have one of her own, but until that happens it would be nice to have peace about it.  These things are temporary fixes, not permanent solutions.  The permanence is the relationship and how to keep it from being destroyed.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I really want to respond, but I have company. I hope others will discuss this while I'm gone!

Sandra

***So, for example when they say "let children make choices" (in images p140 in my edition), the choices are "are you in the mood for your grey pants or your red pants?" meaning "put your pants whatever color it is...***
 
I felt the same way about those kind of choices when I read "how to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk".  However, I have seen parents get in daily struggles over kids getting dressed.  One way to eliminate that is to NOT engage in a struggle.  If the focus is shifted from, "you must wear these red pants that I've picked out for you", to, " which color of pants would you like to wear?", is a huge step in the right direction to giving kids choices in a world that they get very few choices in.
 
When Chamille was little, her best friend lived with us.  Her mom engaged in this struggle every morning.  It was painful to watch.  The little girl ONLY wanted to wear dresses, little frilly ones with frilly slips underneath.  The mom was opposed to it because, one, she wanted her daughter to play more in the dirt and mud and run and get kid messy, and two, because she didn't like that if she played on monkey bars that everyone would see her underwear, and three, she didn't think the frilly dresses were warm enough in the winter or cool enough in the summer.  She had set herself up for a fight because of the expectations she had of how her child should play at preschool.  I kept suggesting that she ought to let her daughter wear her dresses and offer her some shorts or leggings to go underneath.  My own daughter wore dresses with pants underneath, and she picked her clothing out of a handful of hand picked, by me, outfits.  We never fought over
what she would or should wear. 
 
At the time, I had never even heard of unschooling or books like this.  Yet, I could clearly see that my daughter needed a choice in what to wear and that I could help her choose by selecting a handful of appropriate clothing that I knew she'd like wearing.  Some parents don't see that at all, they simply want their kids to put on the clothing that they've selected and compliantly get dressed and eat their breakfast and get out the door on time.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<< If the focus is shifted from, "you must wear these red pants that I've
picked out for you", to, " which color of pants would you like to wear?", is
a huge step in the right direction to giving kids choices in a world that
they get very few choices in. >>

Then you get all the way to unschooling and let them wear whatever! Damon
spent yesterday entirely in his pajamas. Made going to bed easy.

I used to see kids at the mall or grocery store in tutus or in a really bad,
totally non-matching outfit and wonder why the mom let her leave the house
like that! Then I had a kid and it all made sense. Whatever makes them
happy!


<< Yet, I could clearly see that my daughter needed a choice in what to wear
and that I could help her choose by selecting a handful of appropriate
clothing that I knew she'd like wearing. >>

Damon rarely cares to pick out his clothing. I can usually grab a pair of
pants and shirt and underwear and socks and put it on him. Sometimes I do
pull out 2 shirts to see if he cares, and he'll point to one, but if I just
bring one, he's usually fine with that.

Damon is 5 and still likes for me to dress him. He CAN dress himself, for
the most part, but I think he just likes that I do it for him. He's only
been potty trained for half a year and still often leaves his pants (tangled
with underwear) on the bathroom floor. He doesn't flush. So if I find him
playing wii without pants, I might send him back to the bathroom to get them
(and ask if he remembered to flush). Or I will grab the pants if I found
them because I went to pee and I'll help him get into them again. The rumor
is that one day he'll do this for himself! <g>

He does like to choose and put on his own pajamas! Strange. Lately he has
been purposely NOT matching the tops and bottoms. Thinks that's funny. It
is! I'll do it too!

:) Kim

OK, that was me sending an email and I'm from France. So, for example when they say "let children make choices" (in images p140 in my edition), the choices are "are you in the mood for your grey pants or your red pants?" meaning "put your pants whatever color it is... "Would uou like half a glass of juice or a whole?" meaning you have to drink something or one more, the best one : "what would work best for ? Doing your practice before dinner or after?" meaning... No choice : you have to practice. I'm reading again this book to find other clear examples, but to me, it explains what you can do in order to make your kids do what YOU want.

When my second son was born, I had a 15 month old and this new baby who cried ALOT. He had reflux, food allergies, and difficulty sleeping, nursing etc. I was very stressed as was my husband. He would come home from work with me there, having been there all day with my 15 month old and my crying baby (my 15 month old actually called him "Cry" for along time.) and I would be crazy and I would say to my husband, "Do you want to wash the dishes or do you want to feed the kids?" Or then "Do you want to hold the baby or do you want to give J a bath?" Etc... Drove my husband crazy. One day he flipped out. He yelled, " I dont want to do either of those things. If you need me to do something just ask but I dont want to and giving me choices of two things I dont want to do right now doesnt help!" Kind of put it in perspective for me. That being said, I have found giving choises helps with some of my kids. Sometimes a choice from 8 pairs of pants is just too much. But choosing from 2 helps. The same son from above is now almost 7. He doesnt like changes much and goes many days in the same clothes. When I really feel we should get something different on him, I will say, "B those pants are really dirty, lets get some new ones. Do you want jeans or sweats? He does have the choice to decline but typically I will make a deal with him that by that evening or before we leave home that he will choose to change. Yes, I am trying to get what I want from the situation but its alot more peaceful than it could be.

--- In AlwaysLearning@..., Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

I just received an e-mail:

Hello
I see you recommend Siblings Without Rivalry, by Adele Faber and
Elaine Mazlish at the end of:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
But these authors taught some form of communication in which
manipulation is prevalent : NVC (non violent communication), so I
don't think that's a good idea.
Best regards...

I have read Siblings Without Rivalry while I was pregnant with daughter number too (a year ago) and it has helped me a lot. I definitely have avoided a lot of early sibling rivalry because of it. It's not 100% in line with unschooling, but frankly, what book is? (except for the ones written by unschoolers.) When I read I always have my unschooling filter on, and take what I want and leave the rest.

I guess you could take it out of book recommendations, and people who read online on lists like this one would still be fine and find the advice here. But for parents who don't have time to read on the lists, or prefer books, or whatever, you would be removing a helpful resource. To me it seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Bea

-=- While not an unschooling style--I actually liken them to
workbooks--through reading and re-reading certain portions of these
books, I was able to practice over and over how to relay my voice to
my children in a manner that was not controlling, coercive, demanding,
demeaning, or threatening. I found them to be remarkable stepping
stones towards becoming the parent I strive to be. Without those
books, I may have continued to rely on book sources that provided far
worse methods of communicating.-=-

Perhaps that's one of the issues--the best book out there is the best
book there.

Another possible element we could consider is that it could be that
traditional parenting in Europe is not as harsh or controlling as some
aspects of American culture, in which a parent would say "I don't care
which shirt you want to wear, wear THIS one."

If the first step is "which shirt?" that's a step toward more choices.

One example I gave in the Peaceful Parenting talk (there's a sound
file link below) was if you're used to hitting choose between hitting
and yelling.

That's not to say I think yelling is a great idea. I think it's
better than hitting.

The next time, choose between yelling and not yelling. Don't even let
hitting be one of the choices.

Ratchet that up toward really good choices.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Sandra

The problem is that we can not say : ok take this method, because it is not "as worse as ..." Our kids deserve the best and this kind of book just serves the manipulation of the parents.
I'll give you more examples from the book later. I have to leave.
Just a thought about an extract rapidly : p87 "People have asked us, "If I use these skills appropriately, will my children always respond?" Our answer is : We would hope not (I find this really hypocrit). Children aren't robots (meaning : we can't always program them as we'd like). Besides, our purpose is not to set forth a series of techniques to manipulate behavior so that children always respond." Why do they have to justify themselves if it so clear?
Nathalie (France)

"Talk so kids will listen..." might be a first step toward peaceful parenting, but for parents who are already into unschooling, or not there yet but lucky enough to read sandra's or joyce's pages, reading this book seems to me a huge step backward.
 
Imagine someone who does not spank nor yell but still sets a lot of limits or whatever... The person visits a website which helps a lot with that, and the website recommends a book which advises yelling (kind of!).
 
Sincerely, anyone who knows.your websites really does not need to read "Talk so kids will listen".
 
Valentine
 
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why do they have to justify themselves if it so clear?

-=-=-=--==-=-

Because people will read and interpret the how they WANT to. If a parent reads this book wanting to find ways to make her/his child do what they want that is how they will read it. Like all that written  in the book are tools to manipulate their children.

I am reading a book and one of my homeschooling friends is reading the same book. Its is not about parenting but about what made a difference in some sucessful people's life.
This mom was a very gentle mom I met a La Leche League. She still is in many ways but now that her oldest is 7 and she has 4 kids she has become extremely controlling and she pushes those kids academically ( she used to be very relaxed ) to the point of the 7 and 5 year old studying Latin, Spanish and French! She is not a Christian homeschooler but is following the Well Trained Mind approach.
kids cannot watch TV ( movies are limited to a few days a week), their food is controlles ( the 3 year old already hoards food!), no video games ( they rott their brain, is addictive and makes kids violent)...you get the picture.

Back to the point I was making. She called me the other day to discuss the book and what she got in one chapter was the opposite to what I got. I re-read it and I could not believe that is the conclusion she got to. This is a very intelligent and well spoken woman, a former prosecuter in Miami that quit her carreer to stay at home when her oldest was born.

I also don't agree with many things in the book having read about different intelligences and personalities. Plus just because a person that is considered a genius is happy living as a rancher it does not mean he is not successful. 
What it comes down to is what you goals are in parenting.

Some read unschooling list and let their kids hurt others and break other's property without saying much (if saying anything at all!), even when the advice is clearly something else!
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

but for parents who are already into unschooling, or not there yet but lucky enough to read sandra's or joyce's pages, reading this book seems to me a huge step backward

Perhaps if they aren't thinking and are just looking for someone to give them new rules.

If someone is drawn to Sandra's or my site, the respect part of the book jumps out and meshes with what gets said here. The rest has an off feel. (And I'm thinking much of the part on getting kids to comply has to do with school.)

Sincerely, anyone who knows.your websites really does not need to read "Talk so kids will listen".

Philosophically, no. But there's lots of good practical techniques that puts the philosophy into practice.

Joyce

Sincerely, anyone who knows.your websites really does not need to

> read "Talk so kids will listen".
>

Philosophically, no. But there's lots of good practical techniques
that puts the philosophy into practice.

=============

And there are a lot of people who are hesitant to "know the website"
of someone who's "just a mom." They'll care more about what
psychologist say than they will about what "unemployed housewives"
say. I have a bachelor's degree in English. I figure Joyce probably
has a master's in engineering. Neither of those pieces of paper says
"We sure do know all about relationships between children and parents
that can lead to learning!"

Part of deschooling is detaching oneself from depending on wanting to
see the credentials first, but the first parts of deschooling involve
trusting the deschooling advice of those with credentials first. <bwg>

I think people who know my site don't need Joyce's! (And vice versa.)
But unlike some people with websites, I have as many links out as back
in. Some websites are like wasp traps--you can get in there from
several directions, but once you're in they want you to STAY in.
Having said so many times that unschoolers should learn from the whole
real world, I'm thinking part of that world is parenting books from
people who never were unschooling parents. John Holt. He didn't even
have kids. But I don't say "Okay, don't read any John Holt now; we
have replaced him with parents whose kids grew up without school." I
think reading LOTS of voices is good.

Sandra

-=-I also don't agree with many things in the book having read about
different intelligences and personalities. Plus just because a person
that is considered a genius is happy living as a rancher it does not
mean he is not successful.
What it comes down to is what you goals are in parenting.-=-

Priorities. I was at Thanksgiving (none of my kids were there) at a
friend's house, and was talking about Marty's girlfriend, who plans to
go to medical school. Holly's ex-boyfriend was a med school drop
out. I said I could not understand what I was doing wrong. I wanted
them to grow up to marry nice hippie artists, and they were finding
these *med school* people. I was joking, but even as I said it I
realized that my priority was that they were secure and happy, not
that they were competitively impressive and wealthy.

-=-Some read unschooling list and let their kids hurt others and break
other's property without saying much (if saying anything at all!),
even when the advice is clearly something else!-=-

Yes, and they make us all look bad too. Not as bad as their kids
look, but we share their discredit if they say "Oh, we're unschoolers,
so..."

Sandra