Topics

TV


indymediaroom <indymediaroom@...>
 

Why would a group of people who make such an awesome decision to not send your kids
to public school, where kids will be indoctrinated to be good little robots and obedient
workers and obedient consumers, turn around and allow them to be "taught" by the
television (or corporate media of any form for that matter) which has the same agenda as
the schools? Who do you think produces programming (go ahead and look up that word)?

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet, everything on TV, corporate
publishing etc) does that help the person seeking information or the person creating the
propaganda? Have you ever noticed that school is only training for future workers by
those who will take your tax money and try to take over the world viiolently with it (and do
not want to be questioned by people who are busy watching TV and playing video games,
among other things)? Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack as much as they want?"

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as much as they
want?":o}}}}

Don't answer that.

Can we please move on in this country? There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
or valuable. The last time I saw a "Nature Program" on TV it was some loud obnoxious
man on a motor bike running over plants and scaring the crap out of all the animals. Why
do our daughters and sons have to watch the same degrading, woman/mother/earth
hating, racist, classist, violent bore so they can continue the prejudice and division that
keeps life meaningless and those in control powerful?


 

-=-Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the
source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet-=-

Why are you asking us, if you consider the internet to be flotsam?

If you yourself are a critical thinker and a discriminating reader,
you might want to check out the five and a half years worth of
archives for this list (which you joined last Friday):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/messages

I note that your post was #28565

-=-Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?-=-

Have you?
Or did someone tell you that?

-=-"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack
as much as they want?"

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as
much as they
want?":o}}}}

Don't answer that.-=-

Read here:
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
(or don't; maybe it's flotsam. It's direct quotes from parents
gathered over the past few years...)

-=-There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
or valuable.-=-

Really?

I don't have a policy on this list of requesting introductions, but
from you, I'd like to know what your experience with unschooling is
and whether you have children.

If you actually wanted an answers to your questions, rather than to
hurl invective, stick around. If you can't stick around without more
of the snarky insults, that's alright. People are free to change
channels or open trapdoors under those who didn't intend to
contribute thoughtfully and honestly.


If you want to take a breath and remember you're addressing hundreds
of experienced, thoughtful parents, then this is a good time to do that.

Sandra


Nancy Wooton
 

Given the content of your post(s), would you please explain your screen name? I'm beginning to suspect you have a vested interest in opposing "corporate media."
Thank you, Nancy

On May 3, 2007, at 5:01 PM, indymediaroom wrote:

Why would a group of people who make such an awesome decision to not send your kids
to public school, where kids will be indoctrinated to be good little robots and obedient
workers and obedient consumers, turn around and allow them to be "taught" by the
television (or corporate media of any form for that matter) which has the same agenda as
the schools? Who do you think produces programming (go ahead and look up that word)?

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet, everything on TV, corporate
publishing etc) does that help the person seeking information or the person creating the
propaganda? Have you ever noticed that school is only training for future workers by
those who will take your tax money and try to take over the world viiolently with it (and do
not want to be questioned by people who are busy watching TV and playing video games,
among other things)? Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack as much as they want?"

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as much as they
want?":o}}}}

Don't answer that.

Can we please move on in this country? There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
or valuable. The last time I saw a "Nature Program" on TV it was some loud obnoxious
man on a motor bike running over plants and scaring the crap out of all the animals. Why
do our daughters and sons have to watch the same degrading, woman/mother/earth
hating, racist, classist, violent bore so they can continue the prejudice and division that
keeps life meaningless and those in control powerful?


Paula Sjogerman
 


Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate?
Absolutely. There's lots of learning that's not about the "facts" that someone may be saying. I'd say it's an essential part of becoming a critical thinker to be exposed to all kinds of information from all kinds of sources. When you're not there to filter things for your kids, how will they have learned how to do it for themselves?

Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?
Have you ever noticed the many, many kids who play video games and are clearly not characterized by the above? My son would be one of them. If you don't know kids like that, I'm sorry for you. Perhaps you need to spend more time reading about and/or being with actual unschoolers.

There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
or valuable.
I think you don't realize that you are insulting the many people on this list who have found lots of valuable things on television. Aside from the "accuracy" debate, what about just pure fun? What about entertainment? Since you don't have a tv, I don't think you can accurately describe what's on right now as worthless. I could make a compelling argument that we are currently in a golden age of television. Sure there's lots of crap, but there's lots of crappy books and music and art, etc.

Your description of the results of television on people is untrue. Real people can be more complex and more intelligent than you seem to give us credit for.

Paula, whose life has been vastly enriched by television and who still manages to be a non-racist, feminist lover of the environment who votes.


indymediaroom <indymediaroom@...>
 

I thought I had expressed the true respect I feel for parents who choose to unschool.

I believe I was being very thoughtful and honest.

Do you not welcome newcomers?

I am a mother of two unschooled humans. (Am I on trial?)

I do not consider all of the internet to be flotsam, but there is a lot of flotsam. I already
stated that your website is inspiring.

How did I insult you?

--- In AlwaysLearning@..., Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

-=-Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the
source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet-=-

Why are you asking us, if you consider the internet to be flotsam?

If you yourself are a critical thinker and a discriminating reader,
you might want to check out the five and a half years worth of
archives for this list (which you joined last Friday):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/messages

I note that your post was #28565

-=-Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?-=-

Have you?
Or did someone tell you that?

-=-"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack
as much as they want?"

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as
much as they
want?":o}}}}

Don't answer that.-=-

Read here:
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
(or don't; maybe it's flotsam. It's direct quotes from parents
gathered over the past few years...)

-=-There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
or valuable.-=-

Really?

I don't have a policy on this list of requesting introductions, but
from you, I'd like to know what your experience with unschooling is
and whether you have children.

If you actually wanted an answers to your questions, rather than to
hurl invective, stick around. If you can't stick around without more
of the snarky insults, that's alright. People are free to change
channels or open trapdoors under those who didn't intend to
contribute thoughtfully and honestly.


If you want to take a breath and remember you're addressing hundreds
of experienced, thoughtful parents, then this is a good time to do that.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tina Hanson <homemom42kids@...>
 

Never let it be said that you do not speak your mind. Well spoken, we have no TV in our home and do not plan to. You are absolutely correct when you say there is no value to anything that is on it. Preserve your childrens minds and hearts, don't get a TV. It will also keep your family close. You will spend more time together, and will know each other better, and hence more likely to keep your kids from all the things that are going wrong in this world.

indymediaroom <indymediaroom@...> wrote: Why would a group of people who make such an awesome decision to not send your kids
to public school, where kids will be indoctrinated to be good little robots and obedient
workers and obedient consumers, turn around and allow them to be "taught" by the
television (or corporate media of any form for that matter) which has the same agenda as
the schools? Who do you think produces programming (go ahead and look up that word)?

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet, everything on TV, corporate
publishing etc) does that help the person seeking information or the person creating the
propaganda? Have you ever noticed that school is only training for future workers by
those who will take your tax money and try to take over the world viiolently with it (and do
not want to be questioned by people who are busy watching TV and playing video games,
among other things)? Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack as much as they want?"

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as much as they
want?":o}}}}

Don't answer that.

Can we please move on in this country? There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
or valuable. The last time I saw a "Nature Program" on TV it was some loud obnoxious
man on a motor bike running over plants and scaring the crap out of all the animals. Why
do our daughters and sons have to watch the same degrading, woman/mother/earth
hating, racist, classist, violent bore so they can continue the prejudice and division that
keeps life meaningless and those in control powerful?






---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.


 

-=-> There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
> or valuable.

-=-I think you don't realize that you are insulting the many people on
this list who have found lots of valuable things on television. Aside
from the "accuracy" debate, what about just pure fun? What about
entertainment? -=-

Is a Shakespeare play accurate or valuable?
Opera?
A concert?
A tour of a building?
Aerial views of Antarctica or Hawaii or the Serengeti?


-=-
> Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
> who are desensitized to destroying life?-=-

That is neither accurate nor valuable.
Someone is parroting someone.

My kids, who play all the video games and watch all the TV and movies
they want, are not parrots.

At the moment, here's what they're doing.
Kirby is at work. Before that he was playing World of Warcraft with
a group of friends.

Marty just left to play basketball. Half an hour ago he was at a
workshop on women in the middle ages. Before that he was reading e-
mail and before that he was at the orthodontists. He hasn't touched
a videogame or TV all day, he was on the computer for a while.

Holly is on MySpace. Half an hour ago she was at a workshop on
women in the middle ages. Before that, she was watching part of a
DVD she got for her half birthday (15 and a half, yesterday). Before
that she was babysitting.

Sandra


Bob Collier
 

--- In AlwaysLearning@..., "indymediaroom"
<indymediaroom@...> wrote:

There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
or valuable.

Try Mythbusters.


 

-=-Do you not welcome newcomers?-=-

Certainly, but I expect them to be courteous and respectful.

I welcome people into my home, too, but if they come in saying "What
the f***!?" or "This SUCKS," they're quite as welcome to leave.

-=-I do not consider all of the internet to be flotsam-=-

Please be very careful only to write things you believe and will
stand behind. Anything less than that is a waste of every reader's
time and energy.

Edit your posts before you send them. Don't send things that don't
help people unschool. It's not a free-for-all list for discussing
anything in the whole wide world.

-=-I am a mother of two unschooled humans. (Am I on trial?)-=-

No, you're not on trial.
You're in a discussion in which people are sharing their lives and
experiences. If you don't want to use your name or tell us how long
you've unschooled and how old your children are, your words will be
of less value than if you're open and forthcoming.

-=-How did I insult you?-=-

By posting this:

-=-I understand allowing your kids to make their own decisions, but I
probably dislike TV a little
more than you dislike books.-=-

and this:

Why would a group of people who make such an awesome decision to not
send your kids
to public school, where kids will be indoctrinated to be good little
robots and obedient
workers and obedient consumers, turn around and allow them to be
"taught" by the
television (or corporate media of any form for that matter) which has
the same agenda as
the schools? Who do you think produces programming (go ahead and look
up that word)?

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the
source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet, everything on
TV, corporate
publishing etc) does that help the person seeking information or the
person creating the
propaganda? Have you ever noticed that school is only training for
future workers by
those who will take your tax money and try to take over the world
viiolently with it (and do
not want to be questioned by people who are busy watching TV and
playing video games,
among other things)? Have you ever noticed that video games make good
little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack as
much as they want?"

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as
much as they
want?":o}}}}

Don't answer that.

Can we please move on in this country? There is absolutely nothing on
TV that is accurate
or valuable. The last time I saw a "Nature Program" on TV it was some
loud obnoxious
man on a motor bike running over plants and scaring the crap out of
all the animals. Why
do our daughters and sons have to watch the same degrading, woman/
mother/earth
hating, racist, classist, violent bore so they can continue the
prejudice and division that
keeps life meaningless and those in control powerful?


Deb Lewis
 

***Why would a group of people who make such an awesome decision to not send
your kids to public school, where kids will be indoctrinated to be good little
robots and obedient workers and obedient consumers, turn around and allow them to be
"taught" by the television ***

My kid didn't want to go to school and I took that seriously. He likes
TV and I take that seriously. It's pretty simple. It's about my kid.
I don't worry about him being indoctrinated by his TV choices. I wouldn't want to try to indoctrinate him to my way of
thinking. He has and is entitled to his own way of thinking.

***(or corporate media of any form for that matter) which has the same
agenda as the schools? Who do you think produces programming (go ahead and
look up that
word)?***

My son is fifteen. He grew up with a TV in the house. He became interested
in TV when he was four years old. ( around that.) He's not a bit
paranoid about corporate media. He's not paranoid about "programming."
His mind is not so fragile and puny television can harm or destroy him. I think a mother's view of her child as a potential indoctrinated, mindless, something or other is much more harmful to her child than even the worst television programming. I think paranoia is more damaging to a happy family life than American Idol.

***Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the source of
information is erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet,
everything on TV, corporate
publishing etc) does that help the person seeking information or the person
creating the propaganda? ***

My TV watching kid cares enough about accuracy that he wouldn't write *everything* on TV is
erroneous.<g> You have inaccurate information. The knitting thing that was on at my mom's house was painfully accurate. <g>

***Have you ever noticed that school is only training for future
workers by those who will take your tax money and try to take over the world
viiolently
with it (and do not want to be questioned by people who are busy watching TV
and playing video
games, among other things)? Have you ever noticed that video games make good
little
soldiers who are desensitized to destroying life?***

Have you ever noticed that word "game" in "video games."<g>
My son LOVED the first person shooter
game, Quake. He's extremely liberal in his politics, a member of the
Green Party, vegan, and so caring he takes every bug and insect at risk of being stepped on, outside. He recently suggested, after I talked about getting
tough with the aphids that have been attacking my honeysuckle the last few
years (or cutting the honeysuckle down) that I reconsider because
aphids were a higher form of life than the honeysuckle and killing them
would be more morally problematic than cutting down the honeysuckle. <g>

Not even close to a desensitized, life destroying soldier. How do figure?

***Can we please move on in this country? There is absolutely nothing on TV
that is accurate or valuable. ***

There's value in entertainment. There's value in pleasure and delight. I'm
delighted by The Tick and Futurama.
There's value in the news anchor who looks a little like my dad and talks
right to my mom every day and makes her smile.
There's value in my son's joy over monster movies and Italian horror films
and Italian westerns. There's value in the laughter my family shares every
year when we watch How the Grinch Stole Christmas. There's value in the
memories a travel channel episode about Alaska stirs in my husband, who built houses in places like Akhiok and Hooper Bay.

But I don't think a thing needs to have a provable worth. I can't much prove my
worth, but I'm happy to be here.<g> I can't prove the worth of the big rock in my garden, but it's been on the planet longer than I have
so I'm not going to get judgmental about it. I can't prove there's
value in my mom still being alive, but everyday I'm glad to see her. There is no great benefit to the world from my cat, Zoey, but I love her anyway.

***The last time I saw a "Nature Program" on TV it was some loud
obnoxious man on a motor bike running over plants and scaring the crap out
of all the
animals. ***

So, turn it off. I don't like exercise shows. <g> Do you get into your loud, obnoxious car to drive to the health food store? (just wondering)

***Why do our daughters and sons have to watch the same degrading,
woman/mother/earth
hating, racist, classist, violent bore so they can continue the prejudice
and
division that keeps life meaningless and those in control powerful?***

Whoa, bad vibe. There's a lot of ugly stuff coming out your head while you
try to convince us we're stupid for watching TV. <g> If all humans
disappeared tomorrow, all trace of us, things would go on without us. (pretty darn well, too!) If
every living thing on the planet was gone tomorrow the rest of the universe would look
pretty much the same as the day before. So, what meaning are you looking
for? Some little pleasures while your here? Some way to make life sweeter for the people you love, while they're here?
Two little ways of the many, many ways my son's life is fun are TV and video games.

No one "has to" watch anything. Not everything is degrading, woman hating, etc., etc.. There's value in a visual and audio archive of our recent and current culture - it' points out how stupid we can be and how much potential we have.<g> Learning happens when people explore. Exploration is easier and better with a brave heart and an open mind.

Deb Lewis


Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
 

On May 3, 2007, at 5:01 PM, indymediaroom wrote:

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the
source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet

Oh, the delicious irony of an on-the-internet complaint about the
"wasteland of flotsam on the internet!" <g>


-pam


Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...>
 

<<<< "Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack as much as they want?" >>>

The best, perhaps only, possible insurance (but it isn't insurance just enhanced probability) I think I might have against my dd growing up to be a using addict is Unschooling - the full, engaged, observant, amazed-at-her-brilliance, mindful parenting Radical Unschooling and all that it means to our relationship and the kind of life that RU has opened up for our family. My dd has a super double whammy of dna bad luck in that department going back generations on both sides. Knowledge, Self-knowledge, Empowerment, and learning of the experiences of others - including both documentaries and what might be termed the modern mythology that is available through contemporary television fiction - these are some of the paths to making the life of a crack addict an exceedingly unlikely outcome.

Yet if despite my best efforts, Jayn starts smoking crack it won't be because I'm "allowing" it, or approving it, or doing anything but being concerned for her health and safety - and surprised.

And it wouldn't be because I gave her the power to make free choices about her tv preferences.

This "TV is the same as an addictive dangerous drug" myth just isn't borne out by the observations of their children by Unschooling parents over years and years. All the negative studies are done on schooled children who probably have a different relationship with TV than do our children, including mine.

In science it only takes one contrary example to disprove the hypothesis - in this case the "absolutely nothing of value" hypothesis. But between us all here we probably have that highly scientific quantity, lots and lots.

Here's mine: "An Inconvenient Truth" - gee shucks. I guess Al Gore never heard the TV is evil message or surely he would not deign to appear at the televised Oscars, or allow his trivial little movie to appear on cable and satellite TV.

<<<< "Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as much as they
want?":o}}}} >>>>
I don't understand what the emoticon is supposed to signify here. A huge big belly laugh??

You may not be aware that some people on this list have spouses, sons and daughters in the military, some of whom are in harm's way at this very moment. Others have spouses, sons and daughters in the police force, who willingly risk putting themselves in danger every time they go to work.

I think being involved in Unschooling might make an impact on how one conducted oneself in these kind of jobs. However sometimes these jobs mean having to kill people, horrific as that is. I don't think it is about "wanting" to do so for the vast majority.

<<<<There is absolutely nothing on TV that is accurate
or valuable. The last time I saw a "Nature Program" on TV it was some loud obnoxious
man on a motor bike running over plants and scaring the crap out of all the animals. Why
do our daughters and sons have to watch the same degrading, woman/mother/earth
hating, racist, classist, violent bore so they can continue the prejudice and division that
keeps life meaningless and those in control powerful? >>>>
Are you truly seriously telling us that you can't see the value of that program as a conversation starter about how not to treat our wilderness or motor bike responsibility?

The problem with this kind of attitude towards TV in terms of Unschooling, is not the quality aspects; as fun as it is, it is not really useful to get into a debate about the quality of any particular program or genre. The problem is that the kids who are being subjected to this judgmental, absolutist, mean attitude are likely to be far more negatively effected by the attitude, especially coming from someone who is supposed to be their strongest ally in the world, than they would be negatively effected by watching programming that they choose and are interested in.

I have more faith in my dd's ability to recognize and discuss something that is degrading etc, or poorly produced, than I have in the power of any "TV boogey man" to manipulate her.

Who are "those in control" who have all the power? What if it is the parent who is "in control" and uses that powerful position to denigrate something that the child, many of the child's healthy friends and happy relatives find at worst harmlessly diverting, at best full of riveting information and thought provoking conversation-starting ideas.

We usually suggest watching with the children to be able to discover something about what they value, who they are and how they think - watching with an open mind and loving heart.

However, if a parent truly can't get this fear out of their soul, DON'T watch with the kids until the spewing angry emotions are under control. They may be feeling guilty and sad and "what is wrong with me that I like this stuff" enough without the added vitriol pouring onto their heads and poisoning their experience. What if they feel they have to sneak the guilty pleasure when they go visiting or the parents are going out? What if they learn something really cool, but are afraid to share it because they fear the sneering contempt that they were stupidly taken in by this dangerous medium that must be more powerful than they are?

I remember one home schooling aquaintance whose bright idea was to remove the tv from the house to garage (because her dd liked it too much) and only bring it in when the baby sitter was over. Can you imagine how much that child would be looking forward to Mom's absences so that she could get in a bit of the forbidden fruit? I hope I never do anything that would lead Jayn to wish I wasn't there like that.

Indymediaroom, you seem to be implying that your life feels meaningless to you, is being "kept meaningless" and you are being kept powerless by the very existence of ...well it's a bit unclear by what exactly - but I think you are *giving* negative ideas a lot of power over you, including the power to enrage - renting space in your head as my dh says. Many people have found that Unschooling is a path to healing and peace. Please read more about it all, not just the TV stuff.

Robyn L. Coburn.


Helen Cain <hfcain@...>
 

At 01:04 PM 5/4/07, Tina Hanson wrote:


Preserve your childrens minds and hearts, don't get a TV. It will also keep your family close. You will spend more time together, and will know each other better, and hence more likely to keep your kids from all the things that are going wrong in this world.
Perhaps, if you leave your children watching TV and spend your time off cleaning house or doing your own thing. But at our house TV is often a group activity, and sparks so many questions, discussions and debates that we often have to be mindful not to drown out the sound, so that the person who *really wants* to hear every word, can do so. It's social and interactive and it's not often anyone is sitting isolated and "hypnotised" by the screen-with-movement-on-it, as seems to be the fear.

We spend time together *and* learn more about each other and the world while watching television..

and while reading books and while playing games, and while driving in the car, and while folding clothes, and while cooking dinner...

TV is not our life, but it is a positive and enriching part of it.

Cheers
Helen in Melbourne, Australia


Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
 

On May 3, 2007, at 8:01 PM, indymediaroom wrote:

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate?
I learned a great deal about you from the huge pile of inaccurate
information you sent!

I learned that you believe your children are less powerful than TV
(and video games and corporations).

I learned that you write for effect rather than accuracy.

I learned you are less interested in discovering what is true than
expressing what you fear must be true.

I learned that you don't trust that children want or can be critical
thinkers. I've learned that you believe children must be filled with
"truth" in order to see the world the way you believe is right.

Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?
Have you ever noticed how fear can expand a small worry into a huge
all encompassing seeming truth?

Considering how popular video games are, where *are* these children?
There must be droves of them. This statement doesn't even accurately
describe the kids I know who go to school (who also play video games)
let alone the unschooling kids I know.

A theory needs to explain all the data not just the self selected
data (or the data you imagine must be there to fit your theory).

It's not that there aren't people who are desensitized to life, but
you so fear the power of certain ideas that you're looking for an
easy target to protect your children from. If video games were the
cause of desensitization, then all the unschooling kids who play
video games I've met at the unschooling conference should be mean and
nasty and destroying life. But they were more kind and sweet as a
whole than a similar group of schooled kids.

It feels like good parenting to be a literary mother bear to be big
and powerful and protect children from the scary world. But real
mother bears know that kids need to observe and learn from living
life because they'll have to face it and make their own decisions one
day.

It's way easier to soothe fears by finding a target to vilify and
shun than it is to pull fears out of the closet and examine them.

Children become desensitized when they are disconnected from their
families and treated as worthless. They are desensitized to others
feelings because their own feelings aren't taken seriously. They see
people as objects because they've been treated as objects.

But because forming good relationships with kids and taking their
ideas and feelings seriously (even the ones we don't agree with)
isn't nearly as easy as vilifying a demon, it's a lot easier to
soothe fears than face them.

I think there are two common outcomes to treating children as
powerless towards the greater world: they either believe that and
fear the world or they decide mom doesn't understand them and they
turn away to others for advice who they feel do understand them.

Joyce


Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
 

On May 3, 2007, at 9:14 PM, indymediaroom wrote:

I thought I had expressed the true respect I feel for parents who
choose to unschool.
If you look at your email objectively you expressed respect for
people who have the same goals as you: taking kids out of school and
protecting them from what you fear in society. You are calling that
unschooling.

Would it feel like respect if I said "Why would you make such an
awesome decision to not send your kids to public school, and then
treat them as though they were weak and incompetent?"

I believe I was being very thoughtful and honest.
I think you've thought a lot about your fears and were honest about
what you believe.

While honesty is a good quality, it's not very useful for unschooling
when it's divorced from reason. Members of the Ku Klux Klan are
undoubtedly honest with each other about their feelings about non-
WASPs but does honesty alone make them admirable?

While being thoughtful is a good practice, it isn't very useful for
unschooling when the thoughts are all jumbled up with fears. It's not
very useful if the thoughts are filtered through fears and you won't
examine data that doesn't fit your theory.

Do you not welcome newcomers?
If someone posted hateful thoughts about other races, should they be
welcomed just because they're new?

What's valued on this list isn't bodies (new or old) but rationality:
being able to hold ideas up and examine them. What you've done is
open a Pandora's box of fears onto the list. While you may honestly
believe they're true, your heartfelt belief doesn't make them true.
Picking out bits and pieces of information that support your fears
isn't thoughtful examination.

Looking at all the unschooled kids who are kind and sweet who play
violent video games and have unrestricted access to TV and
questioning why they don't fit your theory of what they should be
like is turning in the direction of rational thought.

There are large numbers of unschooled kids on this list who watch
whatever they want on TV, play video games, have the freedom to buy
things they see on TV or in the store (some of which are produced by
corporations) but aren't showing the effects you fear.

Why is that?

If you can't let go of your fears while you take a good hard look at
that, then your thoughts are not going to be very helpful to others
trying to unschool.

Joyce


Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
 

On May 3, 2007, at 11:04 PM, Tina Hanson wrote:

Well spoken
Perhaps honestly spoken but anything so full of inaccuracies devalues
the phrase "well spoken".

we have no TV in our home and do not plan to.
There does seem to be a faction who choose to homeschool and unschool
because it removes children from influences that parents fear.

But there is a faction who choose unschool because it nurtures who
their children are.

It will waste fewer people's time if it's pointed out that the list
reflects the values of the second faction.

"We have no books in our home and do not plan to."

If unschooling is about expanding our children's worlds and helping
them explore *their* interests, then does that sound like the mindset
of a parent embracing their role as their children's partner in
exploring the world.

Frankly, to me, it sounds like the heartfelt statement by
fundamentalist Christians who *also* want to protect their children
from bad ideas and want their children to only express ideas their
parents approve of.

You are absolutely correct when you say there is no value to
anything that is on it.
I don't think it would be useful to take chocolate advice from
someone who hates chocolate.

Preserve your childrens minds and hearts, don't get a TV.
How many unschooled children do you know? How many of Kelly Lovejoy's
Live and Learn conferences have you attended? Where *are* these
unschooling kids damaged by TV (and video games)?

And I honestly don't see schooled kids who are so damaged by these
either. I *do* see effects of school and disconnection from family in
them. I see children who turn to TV because their parents are too
busy. But TV as a demon who eats children's minds and hearts? Where
are the real live unschooling children to support that theory???

It will also keep your family close.
You have perhaps had experience or know of families who are
disconnected from each other. You have perhaps seen them shut each
other out with TV.

TV is not the cause of disconnection. TV watching can be a *symptom*
of disconnection.

Sneezing is a symptom of a cold. Plugging someone's nose so they
can't sneeze doesn't stop them from getting colds!

Unless you examine the true causes of disconnection in families, you
risk it creeping in unseen because you're certain you've protected
your family from it.

You will spend more time together, and will know each other better,
and hence more likely to keep your kids from all the things that
are going wrong in this world.
Why the assumption that TV watching is a solitary activity? While it
can be, if you've read the list long, one often repeated suggestion
is to watch (and do) what your kids enjoy *with* them. Watch TV
together. Play video games together. Be with them at least enough to
know what their interests are about to have meaningful discussions
with them.

Book reading is *way* more solitary! It's probably the most
disconnecting thing a family member can do at home. Should we
eliminate books? Or should we look at theories of childrearing with
rationality and reason and find out what really creates people we
hope our kids don't become and what increases the chances of
nurturing kindness and respect?

Joyce


Bob Collier
 

I watched a very informative documentary on TV not so long ago about
a group of midwives here in Australia who wanted to set up a birth
centre that was going to be very different from any other birth
centre in the country. It would be run entirely by the midwives from
top to bottom. No obstetricians allowed.

The obstetricians, of course, were furious. A public meeting was held
to debate the issue. A senior obstetrician took the podium to present
his profession's side of the argument. His profession's side of the
argument turned out to be a colourful description of every worst case
scenario he could think of.

"Well," I thought to myself, "we all know the thoughts that have
YOU wetting your pants, but, now how about some facts?"




--- In AlwaysLearning@..., "indymediaroom"
<indymediaroom@...> wrote:

Why would a group of people who make such an awesome decision to
not send your kids
to public school, where kids will be indoctrinated to be good
little robots and obedient
workers and obedient consumers, turn around and allow them to
be "taught" by the
television (or corporate media of any form for that matter) which
has the same agenda as
the schools? Who do you think produces programming (go ahead and
look up that word)?

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the
source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet, everything on
TV, corporate
publishing etc) does that help the person seeking information or
the person creating the
propaganda? Have you ever noticed that school is only training for
future workers by
those who will take your tax money and try to take over the world
viiolently with it (and do
not want to be questioned by people who are busy watching TV and
playing video games,
among other things)? Have you ever noticed that video games make
good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack as
much as they want?"

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as
much as they
want?":o}}}}

Don't answer that.

Can we please move on in this country? There is absolutely nothing
on TV that is accurate
or valuable. The last time I saw a "Nature Program" on TV it was
some loud obnoxious
man on a motor bike running over plants and scaring the crap out of
all the animals. Why
do our daughters and sons have to watch the same degrading,
woman/mother/earth
hating, racist, classist, violent bore so they can continue the
prejudice and division that
keeps life meaningless and those in control powerful?


 

-=-Never let it be said that you do not speak your mind. Well spoken,
we have no TV in our home and do not plan to. You are absolutely
correct when you say there is no value to anything that is on it.
Preserve your childrens minds and hearts, don't get a TV. It will
also keep your family close. You will spend more time together, and
will know each other better, and hence more likely to keep your kids
from all the things that are going wrong in this world.-=-


It's unlikely there is a family in which parents and children know
each other better than in a full-on unschooling family where children
are making decisions for themselves and not having parents tell them
what to do, to think.

Or maybe that was the point. If children are built and controlled by
parents, is it then easier for the parents to "know them better"?

-=-...more likely to keep your kids from all the things that are
going wrong in this world.-=-

My children are right midstream in some things that are going RIGHT
in the world. Because of my kids' experiences and freedoms, dozens
or hundreds of other families' lives have been richer and more
peaceful. The unschooling conferences that are being held
increasingly are celebrations of families in which parents aren't
living in fear and children aren't living in fear-based controls.

-=- You are absolutely correct when you say there is no value to
anything that is on it.-=-

It was NOT absolutely correct, and if ten or a hundred people come
and say "oh, so true!" that is not what creates truth.

Sandra


Melody Flurry <imagine1harmony@...>
 

Having a television in the home does not necessarily drive a family apart or cause children to go down the wrong path in life. Not having a television in the home is a decision some parents make, and I think it is a valid decision. My objections to TV programming have more to do with advertising than with some of the programs. I don't like the fact that sometimes my children watch TV and then come to me wanting everything they see. However, it has given me opportunity to discuss and demonstrate that you can't believe everything you see.

We watch TV together as a family, and discuss what we watch. I don't think that is a bad thing, but that's just my opinion. I love TV because it allows me to see things and learn things that I might not otherwise be exposed to. It also allows me to see what is going on in the world--good and bad--and therefore I can become involved in things that are important to me.

I just wanted to throw my two cents into the discussion because it seems that someone is always vilifying TV-- which in regard to expressing one's own opinion is fine, but doing so in an attempt to be self-righteous is not. Don't mean to offend anyone, it's just that we all have the ability and intellect to make our own decisions (this includes our children!).

Melody :-)


Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-=-Never let it be said that you do not speak your mind. Well spoken,
we have no TV in our home and do not plan to. You are absolutely
correct when you say there is no value to anything that is on it.
Preserve your childrens minds and hearts, don't get a TV. It will
also keep your family close. You will spend more time together, and
will know each other better, and hence more likely to keep your kids
from all the things that are going wrong in this world.-=-


It's unlikely there is a family in which parents and children know
each other better than in a full-on unschooling family where children
are making decisions for themselves and not having parents tell them
what to do, to think.

Or maybe that was the point. If children are built and controlled by
parents, is it then easier for the parents to "know them better"?

-=-...more likely to keep your kids from all the things that are
going wrong in this world.-=-

My children are right midstream in some things that are going RIGHT
in the world. Because of my kids' experiences and freedoms, dozens
or hundreds of other families' lives have been richer and more
peaceful. The unschooling conferences that are being held
increasingly are celebrations of families in which parents aren't
living in fear and children aren't living in fear-based controls.

-=- You are absolutely correct when you say there is no value to
anything that is on it.-=-

It was NOT absolutely correct, and if ten or a hundred people come
and say "oh, so true!" that is not what creates truth.

Sandra







Yahoo! Groups Links






---------------------------------
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with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.


Nancy Wooton
 

On May 3, 2007, at 5:31 PM, Nancy Wooton wrote:

Given the content of your post(s), would you please explain your screen
name? I'm beginning to suspect you have a vested interest in opposing
"corporate media."
Thank you, Nancy
Ah! a little Google/Yahoo searching and I have my answer:
http://www.geocities.com/independentmediaroom/

You're a book dealer.

An independent book dealer, at that. I'd say that's a vested interest. No one is truly unbiased.

Nancy


On May 3, 2007, at 5:01 PM, indymediaroom wrote:

Why would a group of people who make such an awesome decision to not
send your kids
to public school, where kids will be indoctrinated to be good little
robots and obedient
workers and obedient consumers, turn around and allow them to be
"taught" by the
television (or corporate media of any form for that matter) which has
the same agenda as
the schools? Who do you think produces programming (go ahead and look
up that word)?

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate? If the
source of information is
erroneous (the wasteland of flotsam on the internet, everything on TV,
corporate
publishing etc) does that help the person seeking information or the
person creating the
propaganda? Have you ever noticed that school is only training for
future workers by
those who will take your tax money and try to take over the world
viiolently with it (and do
not want to be questioned by people who are busy watching TV and
playing video games,
among other things)? Have you ever noticed that video games make good
little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to smoke crack as
much as they want?"

"Why would unschooling involve allowing your kids to kill others as
much as they
want?":o}}}}

Don't answer that.

Can we please move on in this country? There is absolutely nothing on
TV that is accurate
or valuable. The last time I saw a "Nature Program" on TV it was some
loud obnoxious
man on a motor bike running over plants and scaring the crap out of
all the animals. Why
do our daughters and sons have to watch the same degrading,
woman/mother/earth
hating, racist, classist, violent bore so they can continue the
prejudice and division that
keeps life meaningless and those in control powerful?