Date   

Re: TV

 

-=But TV as a demon who eats children's minds and hearts? Where
> are the real live unschooling children to support that theory???

-=-They don't do studies like that. If they did, it wouldn't be on
TV:.) -=-


Who are "they"?

You're missing Joyce's point.

We know unschooling kids who have had the freedom you fear.
We have not seen any real children who have the symptoms and damage
you're telling us are inevitable, or likely, or possible. It doesn't
happen with unschooled kids.


In the same way that someone who's familiar with school AND with
unschooling knows more about unschooling *and* school than a person
who only knows about school, those who know the anti-TV arguments and
have actually seen kids who had total freedom of choice know more
about choice and TV than those who have "studied" anti-TV scare-
literature.

Lots of people have superstitions that save them from the boogeyman.
Maybe better than that is to show the kids that there's not really a
boogeyman.

Sandra


Re: TV

Bob Collier
 

--- In AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com, "indymediaroom"
<indymediaroom@...> wrote:

"In short, video games made better soldiers and sailors
faster, safer and cheaper.
For some game-developers, the new target-market is the
Pentagon and its war games."
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/08/eveningnews/main672455.shtml



Marc Prensky's a good read on that subject.
http://www.marcprensky.com


Re: Validity (was Re: TV)

 

-=-Pat Farenga on unschoolers.com defines unschooling as: allowing
children as much
freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can comfortably bear.
That is why I choose
to unschool - FREEDOM! Why do you choose to unschool?-=-


That definition has been used by Pat Farenga and his wife in talks at
conferences.
The problem with that parental comfort definition is that it allows
for any level of curriculum use.

There are many families on this list who have really successfully
unschooled children throughout their school years.

The Farengas' children have all three been in and out of school
(according to an interview Pat did for The Old Schoolhouse Magazine).

It's not working as well at their house as it has at mine and at many
others' here.

If you like kind-of unschooling, you'll find lots of support and
justification out in the world, but not on this list.

If you really want unschooling to last and have the results people
have found who are courageous and confident enough to give their
children lots of freedom and choice, you need to be courageous and
confident enough to give your children lots of freedom and choice.

These articles might help, if you're really interested.
http://sandradodd.com/choice
http://sandradodd.com/yes
http://sandradodd.com/decisions

And you should read at Joyce's site too.
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

Sandra


Re: TV

Bob Collier
 

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Why do anti-TV campaigners assume
that people with TVs have them so they can stare vacantly at the
screen for hours on end while they stuff themselves with Doritos? Why
do they assume that people with TVs have them so they can watch Oprah
and Jerry Springer? Why do they assume that people with TVs have them
so they can plonk their children in front of the screen and let the
Wiggles do their job for them?

I suspect that the last thing an anti-TV campaigner would want to do
is come into your home or mine and see for themselves the positive
use of electronic media. It would spoil the grand illusion.

Bob

P.S. I'm in Canberra



--- In AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com, Helen Cain <hfcain@...> wrote:

At 01:04 PM 5/4/07, Tina Hanson wrote:


Preserve your childrens minds and hearts, don't get a TV. It will
also keep your family close. You will spend more time together,
and
will know each other better, and hence more likely to keep your
kids
from all the things that are going wrong in this world.
Perhaps, if you leave your children watching TV and spend your time
off cleaning house or doing your own thing. But at our house TV is
often a group activity, and sparks so many questions, discussions
and
debates that we often have to be mindful not to drown out the
sound,
so that the person who *really wants* to hear every word, can do
so.
It's social and interactive and it's not often anyone is sitting
isolated and "hypnotised" by the screen-with-movement-on-it, as
seems
to be the fear.

We spend time together *and* learn more about each other and the
world while watching television..

and while reading books and while playing games, and while driving
in
the car, and while folding clothes, and while cooking dinner...

TV is not our life, but it is a positive and enriching part of it.

Cheers
Helen in Melbourne, Australia


Re: TV

indymediaroom <indymediaroom@...>
 

Joyce:
And I honestly don't see schooled kids who are so damaged by these
either. I *do* see effects of school and disconnection from family in
them. I see children who turn to TV because their parents are too
busy. But TV as a demon who eats children's minds and hearts? Where
are the real live unschooling children to support that theory???
They don't do studies like that. If they did, it wouldn't be on TV:.) Want to find out which
corporations own the TV stations and newspapers and such?
Check out www.projectcensored.org

But you don't have to read about it. Check out these cool movies with your kids to learn
more - you can rent them online:))

Orwell Rolls in His Grave
Manufacturing Consent
the Corporation

Similar:
Who Killed the Electric Car?
Life and Debt
The Ground Truth

Any Robert Greenwald films like:
Walmart:the High Cost of Low Price
Uncovered: The Truth About Iraq
Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism

Love, Susan

PS I'm really glad to know so many people care about their kids enough to unschool.


Re: Silverware example

Bob Collier
 

Hi, Joanne

Here's something that might be of interest:

Natural Consequences
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/natural_consequences

Bob



--- In AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne O'N."
<seagullcaller@...> wrote:

I read but rarely post. But I think it is time that I do so.
Recently, my son (6) and I were in
a restaurant with a friend. He wanted multiple plates of food,
since each food was to be
on a different plate. I supported and assisted him with that. He
also brought back
multiple forks, spoons and knives. At this point I noticed my new
friend glancing at all of
this activity and I began to hear old tapes in my head like she
thinks he has too much
silverware, the restaurant will not like this, now all of this
silverware needs to be washed.
At the end of the meal, not thinking, when the waitress came over I
picked up my plates
and scooped up the silverware from next to me on the booth seat.
Retrospectively I I had
allowed anxiety to develop due to what I was imagining others
thought about what was
going on with my son and then with me that I was not forcing him to
stop this behavior. I
try to explain to him what people expect in public. (He frequently
likes to pour slat and
pepper together, mix water in some other things in front of him on
the table, etc. IN
genreal I delight in his creative exploration. But when out ion
public if I feel that someone
else is watching, I begin to squirm. But to continue, after I had
picked up the silverware,
he rightly became upset and went up to where the silverware was and
began taking now
large handfuls of each utensil again. I was feeling embarrassed
and out of control. I know
I am working and striving not to be in control as I want to honor
his decisions even if they
are not mine. But I am having trouble when the behavior begins to
have others turn and
stare and my trying to speak to him quietly about my regret of
taking his silverware, and
that the silverware was to be used in the restaurant for multiple
people, his behavior got
more insistent and seemed to grow larger. I am still so new. I
know I am making a ton of
mistakes. I am open to all feedback and I would also appreciate
the support of knowing
others have either been there or are also struggling with something
similar. Joanne O'N.


Re: TV

indymediaroom <indymediaroom@...>
 

Joyce wrote:
While honesty is a good quality, it's not very useful for unschooling
when it's divorced from reason. Members of the Ku Klux Klan are
undoubtedly honest with each other about their feelings about non-
WASPs but does honesty alone make them admirable?

While being thoughtful is a good practice, it isn't very useful for
unschooling when the thoughts are all jumbled up with fears. It's not
very useful if the thoughts are filtered through fears and you won't
examine data that doesn't fit your theory.

Do you not welcome newcomers?
If someone posted hateful thoughts about other races, should they be
welcomed just because they're new?
Wow, are you comparing my criticism of TV to hateful thoughts about other races? You
must really love TV to be that extreme about defending it. Some people defend drinking
like that.

What's the difference between my "fear" of television and the "fear" of my children
rejecting me for not supplying them with cable? (Which is not my fear, but the
consequences you have stated that I will face)

Is it possible to divorce yourself from your own opinions when parenting/unschooling?
How neutral can you really be? I think it is better to show your children your true self and
what you believe in and they can take it or leave it from there. My father demonstrated his
belief in his right to bear arms by shooting up the house now and then. That was very
educational. It helped me to form my own opinions.

Susan


Re: TV

indymediaroom <indymediaroom@...>
 

--- In AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com, Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:


On May 3, 2007, at 8:01 PM, indymediaroom wrote:

Can someone learn from "information" that is innacurate?
I learned a great deal about you from the huge pile of inaccurate
information you sent!
What was inaccurate?

I learned that you believe your children are less powerful than TV
(and video games and corporations).
Incorrect.

I learned that you write for effect rather than accuracy.
What was inaccurate?

I learned you are less interested in discovering what is true than
expressing what you fear must be true.
What is true?

I learned that you don't trust that children want or can be critical
thinkers. I've learned that you believe children must be filled with
"truth" in order to see the world the way you believe is right.

Have you ever noticed that video games make good little soldiers
who are desensitized to destroying life?
Have you ever noticed how fear can expand a small worry into a huge
all encompassing seeming truth?

Considering how popular video games are, where *are* these children?
There must be droves of them. This statement doesn't even accurately
describe the kids I know who go to school (who also play video games)
let alone the unschooling kids I know.
"In short, video games made better soldiers and sailors
faster, safer and cheaper.
For some game-developers, the new target-market is the
Pentagon and its war games."
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/08/eveningnews/main672455.shtml


A theory needs to explain all the data not just the self selected
data (or the data you imagine must be there to fit your theory).

It's not that there aren't people who are desensitized to life, but
you so fear the power of certain ideas that you're looking for an
easy target to protect your children from. If video games were the
cause of desensitization, then all the unschooling kids who play
video games I've met at the unschooling conference should be mean and
nasty and destroying life. But they were more kind and sweet as a
whole than a similar group of schooled kids.

It feels like good parenting to be a literary mother bear to be big
and powerful and protect children from the scary world. But real
mother bears know that kids need to observe and learn from living
life because they'll have to face it and make their own decisions one
day.
Which is why I don't waste their time with TV. It's one big ad. It's meant to make people
feel bad about themselves (body image, etc) so they will buy products to make themselves
feel better. And its also to distract. So people won't get to know themselves and
accomplish greatness and talk with their neighbors and kids. When I am around people
watching TV there is very rarely any conversation. My kids are shushed. There are more
important things right here and now for me and my kids. My kids are FREE to explore who
they are, why would I want to waste that precious time? (My opinion about my choices,
not intended as an insult)

It's way easier to soothe fears by finding a target to vilify and
shun than it is to pull fears out of the closet and examine them.

Children become desensitized when they are disconnected from their
families and treated as worthless. They are desensitized to others
feelings because their own feelings aren't taken seriously. They see
people as objects because they've been treated as objects.
TV objectifies people.

But because forming good relationships with kids and taking their
ideas and feelings seriously (even the ones we don't agree with)
isn't nearly as easy as vilifying a demon, it's a lot easier to
soothe fears than face them.

I think there are two common outcomes to treating children as
powerless towards the greater world: they either believe that and
fear the world or they decide mom doesn't understand them and they
turn away to others for advice who they feel do understand them.

Joyce



Validity (was Re: TV)

indymediaroom <indymediaroom@...>
 

Thank you all for your perspectives on the topic. I have enjoyed the thought provoking
stories and opinions you have shared. I have learned more about being a parent and
unschooler. But there are always more questions...

Pat Farenga on unschoolers.com defines unschooling as: allowing children as much
freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can comfortably bear. That is why I choose
to unschool - FREEDOM! Why do you choose to unschool?

Susan

--- In AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

-=-Maybe "valid decision" was the wrong phrase to use! I simply meant
that if someone decides not to have a television in their home that's
fine with me-=-

It's fine with me if they're not insulting unschoolers with it.
It's fine with me if it's not in an unschooling context.

I feel sorry for the kids of parents who make unilateral decisions
regardless of their kids' preferences or desires. There are millions
of them, though, so I don't dwell on it. I hang out on unschooling
lists where it's rare to find parents like that.

Sandra



Re: TV

 

-=-Let me clarify somewhat--It seems that certain commercials which
air on stations that are geared toward children try to make it seem
as though kids need this or that toy in order to be fantastically
happy. -=-

Are you ever watching with them and discussing the commercials?

-=-, my children will say "Can we get that?" and when I say no, ...-=-

Do you always say no?

http://sandradodd.com/yes
There are some ideas on not saying no so much. And it doesn't mean
anything at all like "buy everything."

-=-sometimes after viewing these commercials, my children will say
"Can we get that?" and when I say no, and explain why I made that
decision...-=-

If it's always unilaterally the parents' decision, that can be a
problem, too.
http://sandradodd.com/respect
The more respect children are given, the more they'll have.

-=-. I guess my point is that if they weren't bombarded with
advertising during their favorite programs, I wouldn't occasionally
have to go through this discussion....-=-

"Bombarded" is a loaded word."

-=-Not
that I mind having discussions with them, I guess it has more to do
with helping them get to a place where they can understand that
sometimes what you see isn't what you get, or to help them understand
that just because you want something doesn't mean that it is wise to
get it. -=-

They won't understand that from words as well as they will from
experience and maybe a little disappointment. Part of what will help
them get to that place is age, and they get older every day. Maybe
when you see a commercial for something more neutral, like laundry
soap or frozen pizza or whatever, you could point out the
surrounding messages--beautiful houses, kids with matching clothes,
whatever it might be that is appealing but has nothing to do with the
pizza or soap. If you do it just conversationally and not in a
damning or critical tone of voice, it will help them see commercials
differently without making them feel shamed or belittled for liking
some commercials.

I LOVE the Mac-and-PC dialog Mac commercials. They're really good.
It doesn't hurt that Galaxy Quest is one of my favorite movies or
that I've used Macs for nearly 20 years.

-=-. It's just that sometimes I don't feel the need to discuss a
commercial relating to drugs that treat genital herpes to my kids,
but maybe that's just me!-=-

No way they want genital herpes just because they saw it on TV!

But once Marty asked me about plastic surgery, when he was little
(seven maybe? eight?). They had seen a preview for a talk show about
kids wanting plastic surgery, and I guess they wondered whether they
should be wanting some too. <g>

All of those things are the kinds of learning situations that can
make unschooling fantastic.

Sandra


Re: TV

jenstarc4
 

"In any case, it bothers me that sometimes after viewing these
commercials, my children will say "Can we get that?" and when I say
no,
and
explain why I made that decision (for the expense of it, for example)
then they
sometimes (not always) get upset. I guess my point is that if they
weren't
bombarded with advertising during their favorite programs, I wouldn't
occasionally have to go through this discussion."

In our house, our kids get their own money, and since it is theirs,
they can go and buy what they like with it. Yes, bad choices have
been
made, but guess what? They don't make that mistake again over and
over. Little money, little mistakes, big money, big mistakes.
Wouldn't it be better to let kids make those choices and sometimes
mistakes when it is small, then to learn it through trial and error
when they are big?

I do act as a sounding board for my kids when they are considering
buying something. I let them know what choices I would make and what
options there are, but ultimately the choice is theirs to make.
Sometimes they are right and I am wrong. I wouldn't know that and be
able to humbly admit that to my kids unless I tried it.

"I might want a new car--regardless of where I saw it--but it might
not
be wise to buy it if it puts me under financial stress."

The choice is still yours though. A lot of people make those kind of
choices for themselves and they are adults who should "know better"
but
they don't. There is a feeling of immediate gratification that some
people confuse with need. Personally I think kids grow up needy and
bring it into adulthood.

Trusting my kids to make their own choices, lets them play with those
feelings of needing/wanting, prioritizing and all that. I see my 13
yo
making smart choices with her money. She spends it and saves it, and
sometimes regrets buying things, but ultimately she's happy with what
she has and doesn't feel needy, even when she makes a choice to buy
something RIGHT NOW just because she wants to and can. She is also
quite generous with her money, something that I have a hard time with
because I grew up being limited in my money and choices. I've
learned a lot from her about how to be generous and sweet with the
money I have.

So wether or not my kids want everything they see on tv makes no
difference. No one can have everything they want all the time, it's
a natural constraint of the world we live in. My kids are not
dillusional in their thinking and their choices about their money and
what they want to spend it on. It is okay to feel disappointed about
not getting something that you want because you can't afford it.
What wouldn't be okay with me and my family is feeling disappointed
because you knew mom or dad would say "no", even if you knew you had
the $5 or $10 to buy that cool new thing that you saw a commercial
for. Even if you bought it and ended up not liking it after a week.


Silverware example

Joanne O'N. <seagullcaller@...>
 

I read but rarely post. But I think it is time that I do so. Recently, my son (6) and I were in
a restaurant with a friend. He wanted multiple plates of food, since each food was to be
on a different plate. I supported and assisted him with that. He also brought back
multiple forks, spoons and knives. At this point I noticed my new friend glancing at all of
this activity and I began to hear old tapes in my head like she thinks he has too much
silverware, the restaurant will not like this, now all of this silverware needs to be washed.
At the end of the meal, not thinking, when the waitress came over I picked up my plates
and scooped up the silverware from next to me on the booth seat. Retrospectively I I had
allowed anxiety to develop due to what I was imagining others thought about what was
going on with my son and then with me that I was not forcing him to stop this behavior. I
try to explain to him what people expect in public. (He frequently likes to pour slat and
pepper together, mix water in some other things in front of him on the table, etc. IN
genreal I delight in his creative exploration. But when out ion public if I feel that someone
else is watching, I begin to squirm. But to continue, after I had picked up the silverware,
he rightly became upset and went up to where the silverware was and began taking now
large handfuls of each utensil again. I was feeling embarrassed and out of control. I know
I am working and striving not to be in control as I want to honor his decisions even if they
are not mine. But I am having trouble when the behavior begins to have others turn and
stare and my trying to speak to him quietly about my regret of taking his silverware, and
that the silverware was to be used in the restaurant for multiple people, his behavior got
more insistent and seemed to grow larger. I am still so new. I know I am making a ton of
mistakes. I am open to all feedback and I would also appreciate the support of knowing
others have either been there or are also struggling with something similar. Joanne O'N.


Re: Validity (was Re: TV)

 

-=-Maybe "valid decision" was the wrong phrase to use! I simply meant
that if someone decides not to have a television in their home that's
fine with me-=-

It's fine with me if they're not insulting unschoolers with it.
It's fine with me if it's not in an unschooling context.

I feel sorry for the kids of parents who make unilateral decisions
regardless of their kids' preferences or desires. There are millions
of them, though, so I don't dwell on it. I hang out on unschooling
lists where it's rare to find parents like that.

Sandra


Re: TV

Melody Flurry <imagine1harmony@...>
 

Thank you for pointing out the fact that I wasn't very mindful of my statement and made an incorrect broad generalization. I did not mean to sound as though I think all advertising is bad (especially since my husband works in this field!). I actually like certain commercials, especially ones that I find amusing. Let me clarify somewhat--It seems that certain commercials which air on stations that are geared toward children try to make it seem as though kids need this or that toy in order to be fantastically happy. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting their intent. In any case, it bothers me that sometimes after viewing these commercials, my children will say "Can we get that?" and when I say no, and explain why I made that decision (for the expense of it, for example) then they sometimes (not always) get upset. I guess my point is that if they weren't bombarded with advertising during their favorite programs, I wouldn't occasionally have to go through this discussion. Not
that I mind having discussions with them, I guess it has more to do with helping them get to a place where they can understand that sometimes what you see isn't what you get, or to help them understand that just because you want something doesn't mean that it is wise to get it. I might want a new car--regardless of where I saw it--but it might not be wise to buy it if it puts me under financial stress.

I really have to apologize, because I think my comment--which I did not put enough thought into when I wrote it--caused a concern that I didn't intend. I'm not against advertising, and I do feel that everyone has the capability to discern what they want and need (children as well as adults). It's just that sometimes I don't feel the need to discuss a commercial relating to drugs that treat genital herpes to my kids, but maybe that's just me! And maybe the reason I get annoyed with toy commercials has more to do with a sense of want and need among people in third world countries, who don't have clean water much less 4 different colors of supersize floam, than it does with my kids wanting something (only sometimes, not always!) Thanks for helping me to examine the reasons behind my statement.

Melody


Sandra Dodd <Sandra@SandraDodd.com> wrote:
> I don't like the fact that sometimes my children watch TV and
then come to me wanting everything they see.
-=-The logic of this, though, is troubling-=-



And the statement of it troubled me.

"Sometimes" they want "everything"?

When parents make statements about children without carefully and
mindfully considering every word and every thought, they're not being
as careful as they need to be. When the statements are made in
writing in public, it's even more important.

Nobody wants "everything they see" but hundreds of thousands of
parents like to say things like that without thinking clearly, just
speaking parent-lines.



How is "the right way" to decide someone wants something? Those same
people who might get bristly at the cereal shelves at a mainstream
grocery store can go all soft and content at Wild Oats, though the
marketing strategy is just the same and the prices are way higher and
the quality might be a little higher.

If commercials are of the devil, and marketting strategy is
manipulation, is it okay to decide to want Zoombinis because Jocelyn
Vilter or Kelly Lovejoy thinks it's great? (I think it's great too;
that's not my point.)

Is it okay to decide to buy something because of a review in a
magazine? On a website? Consumer reports? I bought a dishwasher
last month, by reading Consumer Reports. Is that more virtuous than
if I had let a nice salesman kinda choose one for me and persuade
me? But our renters are probably going to get one just like I got,
because I told them they could buy one and give us the receipt (the
tenant can install it; very cool), but told them I really liked mine
and gave them a copy of that same report.

What if one of us saw a spiffy TV ad for that very model of
dishwasher. Then would we be somehow bound to ignore that to proove
we could think for ourselves?

Villifying something is a danger to our own clear thinking.



Sandra






Yahoo! Groups Links






---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.


Re: Validity (was Re: TV)

Melody Flurry <imagine1harmony@...>
 

I see your point. Maybe "valid decision" was the wrong phrase to use! I simply meant that if someone decides not to have a television in their home that's fine with me, just don't try to convince me that I shouldn't have one in mine. I use my TV for educational and entertainment purposes, and if someone thinks that TV is bad and they try to convince me that I am somehow harming my children by having one then I don't appreciate that.

The whole TV discussion reminds me of seeing Ted Danson (Sam from "Cheers") in an interview once where he said that he never had a TV in his home when he was growing up, and I think it's kind of amusing that he became a huge TV star in adulthood.

Melody


Sandra Dodd <Sandra@SandraDodd.com> wrote:
-=-Not having a television in the home is a decision some parents
make, and I think it is a valid decision-=-

"Valid" in what context?
It's legal, but if it's limiting and superstitious and controlling,
it's not "valid" in light of the principles of the kind of
unschooling that's been discussed on this list for many years.

Using cardboard as roofing tiles might be "a valid decision" under
certain circumstances.

Not eating any food that's yellow might be "a valid decision,"
depending on the intent and purpose and result.

First one needs to decide on principles and intent, and *then*
actions can be judged better or worse in that context.

Without context, there can't be "validity."

Sandra








Yahoo! Groups Links






---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.


Re: TV

jenstarc4
 

People could live as the Amish do, refusing to have TV, automobiles,
phones...
OMG! I was just thinking that!

TV and internet ARE of the world; they are part of the real world.
Sandra
Well they are for us for sure!!!!! Note the exclamation points. I
remember growing up without tv and internet, but I wouldn't subject
that onto my kids. I've done the whole tv debate in my head over and
over because of not growing up with tv. Ultimately, it's about
choosing to do things and experiencing things that you find enjoyment
and value in.

I would never take that away from my kids and assume they wouldn't want
it, just because we didn't have it. If someone chooses not to have a
tv before they have kids and continues not having a tv after they have
kids, somewhere along the way, the kid's gonna want to know about tv.

Are they going to get that knowledge from the parents with support and
love or are they going to get it elsewhere. That same thing can be
applied to just about everything in life.

A lot of people we know personally don't let their kids watch tv, or
read manga. I can't even imagine doing that to my daughter without
causing a serious rift in our relationship! I love my kids and support
their interests, if something makes me uncomfortable, it's me, not them
that needs to examine that, preferably quuetly in my head. I have
learned so much through my kids, purely by allowing, or more supporting
their interests.

I really can't imagine villifying anything in their lives that they
might find very exciting. Well, I can imagine it, so I guess that's
why I don't do it.


Re: TV

 

-=-The thing is, I
don't see tv going away, or the internet, so I don't see how limiting
it and calling it bad is going to make a whole lot of difference.
Once a child is 18, there is very little a parent can do about
keeping their kids from that stuff. It's better to learn to live
with our world and get along with it, than to deny it and call it
bad.-=-

People could live as the Amish do, refusing to have TV, automobiles,
phones...

Unless they hope to please God and save their souls by such
sacrifice, the value of it is really questionable. They don't really
shelter their children from the world so much as make them more
vulnerable to it when they do get out there.

TV and internet ARE of the world; they are part of the real world.

Sandra


Re: TV

jenstarc4
 

Ah! a little Google/Yahoo searching and I have my answer:
http://www.geocities.com/independentmediaroom/

You're a book dealer.

An independent book dealer, at that. I'd say that's a vested
interest.
No one is truly unbiased.

Nancy
Well this person deals in comics. My daughter who has never ever
been controlled in her tv viewing, or internet, doesn't watch a lot
of tv. She does watch anime, and from anime, really started reading
because she wanted to read manga books that the anime shows came
from, then moved onto the internet to get access to the more obscure
stuff that isn't on tv. From there she moved into making videos,
myspace, working with html, design programs for editing pictures, and
on and on.

I can't help but thinking that if we hadn't watched Pokemon when she
was 3 and 4, she might not have done all that, and she wouldn't be
the person she is today. I really like the person she is!

Not to mention that a lot of people don't consider comics to be real
books, just a bunch of junk, like tv.

The whole "tv is bad for you" stuff is just a lot of propaganda from
people that think they know what is good for us. The thing is, I
don't see tv going away, or the internet, so I don't see how limiting
it and calling it bad is going to make a whole lot of difference.
Once a child is 18, there is very little a parent can do about
keeping their kids from that stuff. It's better to learn to live
with our world and get along with it, than to deny it and call it bad.


Re: TV

 

I don't like the fact that sometimes my children watch TV and
> then come to me wanting everything they see.

-=-The logic of this, though, is troubling-=-



And the statement of it troubled me.

"Sometimes" they want "everything"?

When parents make statements about children without carefully and
mindfully considering every word and every thought, they're not being
as careful as they need to be. When the statements are made in
writing in public, it's even more important.

Nobody wants "everything they see" but hundreds of thousands of
parents like to say things like that without thinking clearly, just
speaking parent-lines.



How is "the right way" to decide someone wants something? Those same
people who might get bristly at the cereal shelves at a mainstream
grocery store can go all soft and content at Wild Oats, though the
marketing strategy is just the same and the prices are way higher and
the quality might be a little higher.

If commercials are of the devil, and marketting strategy is
manipulation, is it okay to decide to want Zoombinis because Jocelyn
Vilter or Kelly Lovejoy thinks it's great? (I think it's great too;
that's not my point.)

Is it okay to decide to buy something because of a review in a
magazine? On a website? Consumer reports? I bought a dishwasher
last month, by reading Consumer Reports. Is that more virtuous than
if I had let a nice salesman kinda choose one for me and persuade
me? But our renters are probably going to get one just like I got,
because I told them they could buy one and give us the receipt (the
tenant can install it; very cool), but told them I really liked mine
and gave them a copy of that same report.

What if one of us saw a spiffy TV ad for that very model of
dishwasher. Then would we be somehow bound to ignore that to proove
we could think for ourselves?

Villifying something is a danger to our own clear thinking.



Sandra


Re: TV

Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
 

On May 4, 2007, at 8:13 AM, Melody Flurry wrote:

I don't like the fact that sometimes my children watch TV and
then come to me wanting everything they see.
The logic of this, though, is troubling. How about if we put it this
way, "I don't want my husband to want a new set of golf clubs so I am
going to set up his life so that he never even knows golf exists."

That is no different than someone refusing to let their kids watch tv
because the kids might see something advertised that they want.

(I realize this poster isn't refusing to let her kids watch tv, just
expressing her misgivings.)

However, it has given me opportunity to discuss and demonstrate
that you can't believe everything you see.
And, that won't just be a good skill for them in terms of tv, but in
becoming good at discerning how much to believe anything anybody
says, anytime.

My kids grew impatient with advertising, long ago, and choose to wait
to watch a show until it has been going on a while so that they can
use the DVR (TIVO-like thing) and just skip the commercials. So, we
start the DVR when the show starts, then go start watching it 20
minutes later. Or just record it and watch it later. No reason to sit
through commercials.

There are times we WATCH commercials though, for the enjoyment of
seeing how clever the writers are. Fun.

My husband, who grew up in Iran, never had tv until he was an adult.
He is FAR more susceptible to being swayed by commercials than our
kids (16, 19, and 22 year olds). He's a little naive about
infomercials, for example.

-pam