Date   

Re: Emulating Arthur (was: television)

Ticia
 

Oh this is so funny and EXACTLY what I was going to post about.

I had this ah-ha "Southpark" moment last night while watching the VH-
1 special on the creators of SP. I have never really watched SP, my
brother would have it on occasionally, but I never really sat and
watched the show.

I was sitting in the front room after reading all the television
posts on this list and watching this show. After it was all over I
laughed to myself because it was just too funny how I have become
one of those parents overreacting insanely to the idea that my own
children somehow cannot be "trusted" with their own opinions.

Boy, it has been a real wake up call to the way I've spent the last
year with my dd. It seems my parenting and my ideals on how I would
*parent* have kind of been just outside of my grasp. Adding a new
sibling to our family has kind of rocked our last year. I think I
was such a fabulous parent when I only had 1. I have had to learn to
be a parent to 2 children which has kind of shaken me off kilter.

I have really needed this discussion and it has enlightened me in
many ways...not just about TV, but on all other *restrictions* we
have unsensibly created. Oh what a week of clarity I've had. I would
equally enjoy some discussion on how all of your unschooled siblings
relate and work things out/argue/etc.

Ticia


Because, it turns out, the subject matter of the movie is
exactly the thing I had been doing: Parents overreacting insanely
to the
idea that children will hear bad words in movies.

HUGE learning experience for all involved.

Sandra


Re: allowance

Alan & Brenda Leonard <abtleo@...>
 

My 5 yo gets $5/week -- enough so that she can buy a small toy if she wants
to, or save for a bigger toy
My son get 5 euros a week, which is now something like $5.50. We had the
same experience of him wanting to spend it all the first couple weeks, and
then learning to save towards something he wanted more.

By having an allowance, Tim discovered that the value of money is in having
more of it. He is far less likely to buy little stuff or icecream cones (on
days when I'm not buying!), and much more likely to save and get something
he really wants. It's helped him think about what he really desires and
values. We do still buy him things, of course, or we help him buy more
expensive things. But it seems like we all buy less this way. Seeing him
be frugal about his funds can help me remember that money doesn't grow on
trees, too.

The money isn't tied to her behavior in any way. It is the line item in the
family budget for Lydia discretionary spending, similar to the line item that
my husband and I each have.
Exactly. I tell Tim that he shares in our wealth because he's part of our
family. In the same way, I ask if he would help with things around our home
because he is part of our family. At 7, he does some things now without
being asked. But when I ask, he's generally happy to help. To me, it's
sort of the same attitude many parents use, that chores and money are
related, but in the happy, friendly way (you're part of the family) instead
of the mean threatening way. I don't see the need to be mean about it.

Brenda


Re: tv watching

Paula Sjogerman
 

on 10/18/03 12:13 PM, SandraDodd@aol.com at SandraDodd@aol.com wrote:

Do you really think television itself is physically holding on to people,

Yes.

I do think there is something about the electronic media themselves. I love
television and movies and the computer, but I have too often watched
something or stayed online past when I really wanted to and not because what
was on the screen was more interesting than what other things awaited me.

This has never happened to me with a book. I will stay up way too late to
finish a great book, but have no problem putting down a book that is boring.

Paula


TV - question, please don't flame me

Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@...>
 

Hi! Welcome! I've never seen any flaming on this
list, ever. We're all grown ups here.

My question is for the people that do not put limits
on what their kids watch, ....... If your child
chooses to watch something along the lines of
borderline pornography, or full blown pornography,
do you put an end to that, or are you letting them
watch it or has that not become an issue in anyone's
home?
Well we don't have any pornography in our home, but we
do have some movies with pretty explicit love scenes.
Shakepeare in Love is a great example because there is
a lot of very obvious sex in the movie and we watched
it together recently. My son Thomas, who has special
needs that I just went into regarding tv in another
post, has really sophisticated taste in storytelling
and movies. He wants to be a director. He loves
Lawrence of Arabia, Fiddler on the Roof, and
Shakespeare, as well as action movies. So he
specially requested this movie and has been watching
it recently. When we get to the sex parts he hides
his face and/or asks us to fast forward. It's not
ditrubing to him, but he doesn't want to see it. He
says "I know what sex is. It's grownups kissing and
cuddling, and doing other stuff. I don't know what
other stuff, because I am just a kid." But he doesn't
want to watch it, even though he finds merit and value
in the rest of the film. When he watched Franco
Zeferelli's Romeo and Juliet, there is slight nudity
but no overt sex, so he was quite comfortable with
that and watched it about 6 times while we had it from
the library. He'll be 7 in Dec.

Nanci K.


Re: And yet another new one

Julie <jlist@...>
 

Julie (jlist@redjellyfish.net) wrote:
<<We visit my parents there several times a year. Did you grow up in Jamestown?>>

Dawn wrote:
<<I did. Went to ps here. I graduated in '78.>>

I graduated from JHS in 1990, and my dad taught English in Lincoln Junior High & then the high school. You graduated right about the time my dad tried to pull my sister and me out of school (after reading John Holt & others), but then the school system threatened a law suit and he backed down. Times have changed... :)

Julie

----- Original Message -----
From: Dawn Bennink
To: AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] And yet another new one


Julie wrote:

> It's a small world, Dawn. My hometown is Jamestown!

Get out!

> We visit my parents there several times a year. Did you grow up in
> Jamestown?

I did. Went to ps here. I graduated in '78.

> My husband was born and raised in Endicott, and his dad was an IBMer,
> too. We live minutes from the Endicott exit on rte 17, so feel free
> to stop by if you need a break on your way to Kingston. :)

Thanks!

>
> I'll definitely check out www.nyhen.org and join the list. Thanks!

You are most welcome. I think you'll find it extremely helpful.

Dawn



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Television

Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@...>
 

This issues is a bit different if your child has
special needs. My older son, Thomas, is extremely
sensative and lacks a lot of filtering ability that
most people have. He is definately what would be
described as a "special needs" kid and takes special
consideration. More and more kids now are being born
with "special needs" similar to our son. Why is that?
Chemicals in our food and environment? Other
environmental changes? Some sort of evolutionary
spin? All of those? Who knows..the point is that
when some families say that they "HAD" to cut out tv
or certain programming, you can't judge them all by
the same standard. Not all kids are the same. This
is what happened with Thomas.

When he was younger (3-4-5) we had to "ban" certain
movies/shows at home, not by choice, but out of
necessity. It was a mutual ban, where we talked with
him about how his behavior was being affected and how
maybe he should wait a while before trying those
programs again and he agreed. We could afford cable
at that time and tv watching was really profoundly
affecting all our lives in a negative way. We didn't
limit their choices at all, and the results for us
were scary. Our younger child has always been of a
patient and gentle disposition and doesn't have the
special needs of his brother, so filtering and
behaviors never became an issue for him personally.
His brother's behavior affected all of us, however,
him most of all.

What shows? Well Disney's 101 Dalmations was one of
them. The most colorful and impressive character on
that show is of course Cruella. Our son was emulating
her behavior, slapping his little brother full across
the face, calling him or us "You Idiot!" and
"Imbiciles!" and emulating other of her behaviors.
There were also shows which gave him horrible
nightmares, which he is prone to, and were causing
sleepless nights and a lot of stress for all of us.
There were other shows in which the main problems were
violent or uncontrolled behaviors emulated. These
were not one time "experimentation" things. We tried
talking with him about the behaviors. Without fail,
each time he viewed the shows, there would come the
behaviors afterwards.

He still does this today, emulating what he sees in
games, in videos, or hears in stories, running to
invent a game based on things he's just been exposed
to. I know that's normal for kids, and now he does it
in a more normally selective way and is better able to
understand what is socially acceptable behavior and
what is "bad guy" stuff, although we still sometimes
have to talk to him about that.

Current examples of ongoing problems from tv: It's
NOT ok to spit on people when you are really angry
with them, even if the hero does it to the bad guy in
a movie (particularly when you are talking about
someone with an explosive temperment who is mad a
lot)... It's NOT ok to punch/kick/bite/head butt/etc.
others because they are saying something you don't
like, which is not just about teasing but also when he
doesn't get his way or we're not doing what he
wants....Dropping your pants in public, or in other
ways exposing yourself at home, is not funny, even if
it seems really funny in a movie (this is from a
somewhat nudist family where we believe skin is
healthy, and the boys still bathe together, and we
don't hide in shame when we're dressing and we let
them run around naked in our private forested home in
the summertime or swim in their little pool naked -
but I'm talking about imappropriately being nasty - so
much so that he is currently not allowed to go without
pants at home because when the pants go, his humanity
seems to go also....Cussing people out and calling
names (he's picked up some doozies from tv) is not
cool, funny, or acceptable at home or elsewhere - this
from a family that doesn't believe in "bad words" and
has no problem with the kids cussing at home and
playing with words, but I am talking about being
hateful and hurtful to people, like when you tell your
kid there is no more ice cream and he screams that you
are a stupid fucking pig bitch, well, that's a
problem....

These days he will ask us for help in making decisions
about movies to watch. He will ask us "Is this too
scary for me?" or "IS this ok for kids?" Which is
his way of asking if it's ok for HIM in particular.
Lot's of gore (ie: Gladiator, Braveheart, etc) or lots
of terror/tragedy he cannot handle. The oddest things
give him horrible nightmares (like the Wizard of Oz,
or Sleeping Beauty, which he still will not watch) and
then incongruous things never seem to bother him at
all or cause any behavior problems (like Conan, The
Mummy, Air Force One.) He will stop us partway into a
movie he has not seen before and say "I don't like
this" or "It's scaring me" and turn it off. He will
sometimes stop us partway through movies he HAS seen
before and say the same things, as though he is at a
developmental stage where it bothers him now, where
before it didn't. He may watch a movie all the way
through and then not ask for it again for years, which
is another indication that he was not ready for it.

Anyway my point is that not all kids are exactly
alike. Some are more impressionable, or less able to
decipher the complex social clues in movies to
understand what is satire or what is not ok in real
life. Some adults are like that too, for that matter.
It's not a matter of intelligence levels, but of
intelligence types and different ways of absorbing
information. It's especially important for people
like that to have early practice deciphering those
clues and understanding socially acceptable behaviors
because it's not as natural for them to understand and
they NEED more practice. But it's also important not
to drown them with stimuli (which is not hard to do
when they lack filtering tools and self control) while
they are trying to learn these things.

Nanci K.


Re: tv watching

nellebelle <nellebelle@...>
 

We sometime pick peaches or cherries at an orchard near our house. It's really hard for me to stop picking. I always see one more that looks too good to pass up!

Mary Ellen

----- Original Message ----- It's hard for me to leave a bar or restaurant where there's live music I'm enjoying. I don't know if the very next song is going to be one I don't want to miss.


Re: television

Betsy <ecsamhill@...>
 

**Well, isn't this why I'm hear to broaden my views and opinions.
**

I think that's a wonderful reason to be here.

Some people find having their ideas critiqued to be pretty shocking. Occasionally people react as if their personal boundaries have been ambushed and violated. Almost as if someone had pulled down their pants and told them their underwear was ugly -- they seem that shocked and startled to hear a contrary opinion.

::: end bizarre analogy :::

(I'm talking only about the most extreme indignant reactions we have seen on unschooling lists. And I'm grossly overgeneralizing. I honestly don't mean any one particular person, so please don't think I mean any of you personally.)

Betsy


Re: tv watching

Paula Sjogerman
 

on 10/18/03 11:12 AM, SandraDodd@aol.com at SandraDodd@aol.com wrote:

<< Tv is a series of 600 black dots that light up in sequence over and over.
This is damaging to the brain development to children under age 7. >>

Says who?

And what about the computer screen? Same CRT technology, right? Without the
benefit of music an d good acting.

<<Tv lowers the brain waves to the pre-sleep state, so things that are going
in hypnoticcally and it's really hard to make a conscious choice to turn it
off. >>

I've read this in two books, and heard it parotted by "educators," but I
haven't seen it seem true with kids who weren't limited.

I'm an adult and I've experienced this with both the television and the
computer. I can and do turn them off, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't
hard sometimes. I think it's doing some parents a disservice to say that
that their kids might not experience this also. It might not be universally
true for all humans, but it could be true for some.

I'm not advocating big TV limits, but I do think that some people need more
help regulating than others.

Paula


Re: And yet another new one

Dawn Bennink <dbennink@...>
 

Julie wrote:

It's a small world, Dawn. My hometown is Jamestown!
Get out!

We visit my parents there several times a year. Did you grow up in Jamestown?
I did. Went to ps here. I graduated in '78.

My husband was born and raised in Endicott, and his dad was an IBMer, too. We live minutes from the Endicott exit on rte 17, so feel free to stop by if you need a break on your way to Kingston. :)
Thanks!


I'll definitely check out www.nyhen.org and join the list. Thanks!
You are most welcome. I think you'll find it extremely helpful.

Dawn


Re: television

Kelli Traaseth <tktraas@...>
 

**(Peach paused, in the air, with her parasol, above her**

Oops, Zelda paused, got my Smash Bros characters confused! <g>

Kelli~




One
character in this game is Zelda, a princess type character in a pink
colored gown. Well, Matrix met Mary Poppins right now, in its own
dimension. (Peach paused, in the air, with her parasol, above her)
<G>

Love it! What great connectiveness for a family!


Kelli~





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Re: television

Kelli Traaseth <tktraas@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@aol.com>
**Because we don't have age milestones and requirements and threshholds for
things, she didn't have to put aside playing with Barbie and Ponies to
watch R
rated movies. So she will do both on the same day.**

Yes, I love this.

Like right now-- Alec (10), Abbi (9) and their cousin (6) are playing Super
Smash Bros, on the Gamecube. When you pause the game with a character in
mid air its really funny because it looks like the Matrix type of action
shot. And we get a kick out of doing that quite a bit. <g> One
character in this game is Zelda, a princess type character in a pink
colored gown. Well, Matrix met Mary Poppins right now, in its own
dimension. (Peach paused, in the air, with her parasol, above her) <G>

Love it! What great connectiveness for a family!


Kelli~


Re: television

H B <emkaysmommy@...>
 

Sandra wrote

"Literature pretty much exists for us to exercise our biochemistry and
imagination on "what ifs." Like an amusement park for brains, scary stories
stimulate the parts of us that usually don't get a workout unless there's a real
fright, and love stories stimulate parts that are usually quiet and still unless
we're currently really involved with some crush/romance, and so forth."


So true!!! As a children's librarian with 9 years experience, I see this all the time! Film and literature stimulate different pats of the brain, and both are valid forms of art. My young patrons love to discuss the latest movie-of-a-book they've seen, and are very critical in their reviews. They were disgusted by the film version of "James and the Giant Peach" b/c the ending was so contrived. They disliked "Stuart Little" b/c the entire flavor of the story was cartoonish, which is so NOT E.B. White's writing style. They thought "Holes" wasn't nearly as exciting as the book, especially since you don't get the same feeling of epiphany at the end of a movie that you get from a book. Even the "Harry Potter" movies, which are as true to the story as any I've seen are fodder for the little Eberts.

Keep in mind the majority of kids I work with are schoolers. Kids are so smart. They know movies are not the same as books. They understand the difference between what they read and what they watch, and are capable of sincere criticism even of their beloved media. Give them some credit for how much they understand!




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Re: tv watching

Retta <rettafontana@...>
 

My kids, 10 and 15 have tv freedom. I talk to the 10yo about things that I feel necessary, but that trust factor takes over in the end. I trust that she's working something out that I don't know or understand at that moment. I think they sometimes want to see how awful people can treat each other at a safe distance and live vicariously.

They both watch more than I would like, lots of days we (thier dad and I) ask them to turn it off so we can have some quiet. That is about us and what our need is at the moment rather than a judgement about tv or their behavior. (The tv is placed pretty centrally for when we all want to watch - probably not the best place for it.)

Tv lowers the brain waves to the pre-sleep state, so things that are going in hypnoticcally and it's really hard to make a conscious choice to turn it off. But afterwards, the 10yo will realize that that isn't how she wants to spend her time and she sees how addicting it can be.

Tv is a series of 600 black dots that light up in sequence over and over. This is damaging to the brain development to children under age 7.

My parents were tv addicts and we "slept" through my childhood with the tv on every waking moment. I still feel sad about that.

Retta



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Re: TV - question, please don't flame me

Norma <athomeopathy@...>
 

--- In AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups.com, Irsue@a... wrote:
<>If your child chooses to watch something along the lines of
borderline pornography, or full blown pornography, do you put an end
to that, or are you letting them watch it or has that not become an
issue in anyone's home? I guess that is something I wouldn't want to
walk in and see my kids watching and I would hope that other parents
would feel the same. Again, I am just asking a question, not trying
to start an all out war. Susan<>

Susan:

Good question! My daughter has always had the opportunity to watch
movies and occasionally TV where nudity or lovemaking happens. We
have talked about pornography. Easy to do since it comes to most
free email accounts all the time. We have discussed how it uses
women and often denigrates them, turning them into pleasure objects
for men. Yes, I know there are all kinds of variations of
pornography, but 99% of what sells is men using women to satisfy
themselves. And we have talked about and watched some films in which
people make love, usually just a clip within the movie, but if it is
done very well, it can be quite beautiful. I want her to know that
good sex is beautiful and enjoyable for both parties.

So, yes, she is allowed to see these things. More often than not we
watch together. And until recently (she's 16) she did not have much
interest in this type of thing. Now she does, so we watch from time
to time. No, we do not rent adult videos, or even some of the X
rated popular films. She has never expressed an interest in these
and on a few occasions when she has been at friends' homes and they
put these kinds of videos on (mostly teen boys do this) she has left
the room because she did not want to watch. But we have watched
quite a few R movies.

One of my favorite films is a very scary murder mystery titled "Don't
Look Now" with a young Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie. Besides
being so scary my husband won't watch it, it has one of the nicest
love-making scenes in all of filmdom, I think. One of Dd's all-time
favorites is "Pretty Woman," and another is "Flashdance," and yet
another that she has watched many times is "Dirty Dancing." Her most
recent favorites are the French film, "Amelie," and "Center Stage."
All of these have sex scenes, and she loves all of them. And she is
no more inclined to go out and try sex than she was before watching
them.

On the plus side she is not inclined to be interested in any of the
very exploitative TV shows about men and women getting together,
especially these "reality" things that have men selecting women or
women selecting men.

The real bottom-line, however, is time. She really doesn't spend
much of her time in front of a TV. She is a very busy teen, with
hours of figure skating practice each day, a part-tim job at the
library, and many activities in which she is involved. Often she
will start to watch something then drift over to the piano and start
working on a piece she is practicing. Or she will have the TV on
while she is working on her clothing designs, sewing. Or she will
prefer to listen to her favorite CDs, dancing and working out. TV is
just background noise more often than not. So I just don't worry
about it. She has a good head on her shoulders and I think she can
handle whatever comes along. So, yes, we do watch many different
things on TV and on videos, but only when we have time, when we are
so inclined, which is not very often.

Norma


Re: television

emkaysmommy <emkaysmommy@...>
 

My dd is 22 months, and I am amazed about how much she retains from
what she watches, and in such a short time span!!! She can act out,
and say lines EXACTLY on cue with the characters from some of her
videos after watching them only 3-5 times!!! To me, this is
amazing! She understands the plots and will sit still through an
entire 1.5 hour movie. To me, that says a lot about attention span.
She will tell me things about what she sees, saying "Oh, no!"
or "Happy" or "sad." This has transferred to our everyday life as
well.

For example, we were taking the cat to the vet and the poor cat was
in her carrier on the front seat and was meowing up a storm. My dd
announced, in a serious tone, "Mommy, kitty scared, kitty scared."
To be able to understand the feelings of a cat, first of all, and one
whom she can't even see, and whom is meowing in a mournful tone, to
me is pretty amazing.

Did she get this all from TV? No, probably not. But do I see TV
expanding her comprehension of her world? Definetly.


Re: television

Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
 

on 10/18/03 7:42 AM, fishierich@aol.com at fishierich@aol.com wrote:

Well, isn't this why I'm hear to broaden my views and opinions.
Not necessarily! ;-)

People join lists for all sorts of reasons, like support, contact with other
adults, a place to spout off. People who come to grow and change, who are
open to seeing things in new ways will get the most from this particular
list.

Joyce


Re: television

AM Brown <ambdkf@...>
 

I did limit my son's TV content a bit when he was this young. He was
very
sensitive to what he saw. He would act like the characters and have
nightmares
if he watched something intense. When he was this young, that just meant
not
having the TV on a channel where this might show up and not bringing
those
videos into the house. I feel like it was more management than anything.

I have learned, especially from the last two SOS conferences, that we all
fall into the *extremely* sensitive arena. Something we try to emphasize
is listening to our bodies, for when to eat, when to sleep and also when to
turn off things that make us feel unpleasant. I think there is still
important learning there. We went to see the IMAX called Coral Reefs and
it was literally every night for months my oldest would be brought to tears
by the destruction of the reefs. We used that to talk about the feelings
and what we could do. It was still very painful for her. She empathizes
in this same way with characters being mistreated or harmed. They saw Nemo
whenever it first came out and every night as we are lying in bed talking
about 'happy and sads' for the day one of her sads is always "I'm sad that
Nemo's mom was eaten". I think when she was watching a lot of 'kid's'
programing she was becoming overloaded and talking about how we were all
feeling really helped them set boundaries from themselves about what was
important to them and the effect outside stimulation can have on all of us.
This is not always easy for adults to do either, so I think it is great
they are starting to really hear their bodies at such a young age. I do
think it will change over the years and I look forward to a time when we
can enjoy all types of movies and the discussions they bring.

Anna


Re: do unschoolers get good jobs?

Julie <jlist@...>
 

leschke@shaw.ca wrote:
<<I have gotten several comments on my blog from a girl who is SURE
that Gary won't be able to get a good job if he doesn't go to school. Does anyone have any info or links about unschoolers who went to college or got a really good job?>>

Here is an excerpt from Growing Without Schooling as quoted in Grace Llewellyn's Teenage Liberation Handbook.

From Growing Without Schooling, issue #100, Darlene Lester of California writes about her son Ely:
During his years at home he discovered and developed his talent for drawing. He took art lessons, drew every day, and delighted us with his increasing skill. He had a great love for Disney-style art and spent a lot of time drawing Disney characters. He got astonishingly good. At twelve he was earning money doing "quick sketch" portraits at parties. He learned how to do this from a retired artist who had worked at Disneyland...

[Later, when Ely started researching schools,] He found out that they were all horrendously expensive. Finally, he discovered a life drawing class in L.A. that was taught by a retired Disney animator. He signed up and made the two-and-a-half hour trip once a week. He met some people in the class who told him about an ROP animation class held at a high school in the area. He signed up for that, too, and said he felt like he was in the right place...

This ROP program funnels talented people into the animation industry by creating internships with the various animation studios. Ely just recently interview to become an intern at Film Roman, an animation company in L.A., and he got the internship. He will train there for about a month, and if they like him, he'll be put on the payroll...

The beauty of all this is that while Ely's artistic peers are grinding away in universities or at expensive art schools, with no guarantee of work in that field, Ely will be busy training in the nitty-gritty of his chosen career.

Steve and I have always told the boys that we've both had a wonderful life, each of us doing what we love to do (and getting paid for it), without having attended college. Instead, we move directly toward our goals with as few middlemen as possible. It was definitely a quicker and more enjoyable way to go, and it always seemed much cheaper. We are clear now that many kinds of work can be entered directly through some kind of apprenticeship arrangement, or through a trade school, or by simply working on your own, getting tips from mentors or books when you get stuck. We are more sure than ever that college is not for everyone, that for many kinds of work it is not the best route, that it is shamefully overpriced for what you get, that it doesn't guarantee you a good-paying job (or any job, for that matter), and that its hard sell given routinely in high school is not deserved.


Hope this helps!

Julie


Re: television

Shyrley <shyrley@...>
 

Julie Solich wrote:

When we watch Eastenders they are interested in why teens on that show don't speak to their parents or why pupils on Grange Hill bully each other.
Shyrley
I haven't seen Grange Hill for years. Is it still going or are you talking about old repeats?

Julie

I've been watching videoed repeats. No idea if they are still making it.
It's like having a window back into the 80's :-)

Shyrley