The segregated south was a racial police state.


David Markham
 

The segregated south was a racial police state.


Today, the more I learn about segregation and the Jim Crow system in Virginia, the more I agree with the great Virginia civil rights lawyer Oliver W. Hill Sr., a law partner with Samuel Tucker. Hill found a better way to explain the “Virginia way of life” that helped form me. In 1985, he described life for southern African American citizens during the Jim Crow era: “Virginia and the whole South were police states. There isn’t a question about that. Negroes didn’t serve on juries … You saw no blacks in places like city hall, or public buildings, unless, except, maybe an elevator operator or janitor. And that’s the way it was.”78 If the Virginia of my youth was no democracy, if I call a plantation an enslaved labor farm, then I should also call segregated Virginia by its true name—a racial police state. To be clear, the South of my birth was no democracy.

Seidule, Ty. Robert E. Lee and Me (p. 72). St. Martin's Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 


Ty Seidule pulls no punches. Seidule doesn’t sugar coat. Seidule doesn’t equivocate or spin. Like a soldier, even though also a scholar, he calls a spade a spade and tells the unvarnished truth.


How many people would agree with his labeling plantations “slave labor camps” and the segregated states of the south “racial police states?”


Seidule ends chapter two with this sentence, “We find it hard to confront our past because it’s so ugly, but the alternative to ignoring our racist history is creating a racist future.” p.73


It seems that we have ignored our racist history and are living in a racist present. Confederate flags in a Charlottesville racist rally in August of 2017 led to people being killed and beaten by White Supremacists is a contemporary phenomenon along with Confederate flags being carried through the halls of congress on January 6, 2021 as rioters staged an insurrection to disrupt a democratic government. So I don’t know what Seidule means when he writes that ignoring our racist history is creating a racist future. This is not a speculative future but current behavior to subvert our constitution the same as in 1861.


The question is what should be done?


Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”


  1. Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?

  2. What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”

  3. How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

  4. Would truth commissions and reparations help?


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
image.png

David Markham


Jeffrey Taylor
 

I agree, in general, with what you have written but first, let us address two serious mistakes.  

First one made by Seidule.  

Seidule ends chapter two with this sentence, “We find it hard to confront our past because it’s so ugly, but the alternative to ignoring our racist history is creating a racist future.” p.73

I think any discussion must observe the logical failure here, the fallacy of the excluded middle. We should be asking, what is meant my "the alternative". If we read this as "the only alternative" then we have a classic case of ignoring other possible alternatives which may be many. And this is what I think Seidule means. I'm sure somewhere in the course of his expositions someone, possibly someone in authority, said Seidule you are making a mountain out of a molehill. What is in a name, what is the significance of a monument? The naming and honoring activities are all in the past. Stand down.

I think reading the first chapter we got the intensity of his feelings. Yes he calls it like he sees it with no equivocation. And the system of segregation was devastating. Anyone who opposed it did so at peril. Now I am inclined to agree with his statement but reinforcing his position with a logical fallacy is not a strong move.

"So I don’t know what Seidule means when he writes that ignoring our racist history is creating a racist future. " I don't know what you mean by this. I think Seidule, you and I all agree. He has written a book indicating a series of honoraria to the Confederacy which should not have been made if those who did so were paying attention to our racist past. I don't know how you could have read the book and not gotten his point. Now I would agree that Demented ignored racism or failed to understand the meaning of the term and his followers have done so as well. But Seidule is clearly not one of them. And unless I am confused or demented neither your nor I are one of them. Also the recent contemporary events you mentioned are racist actions. I don't see what there is not to understand.



On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 08:01:32 PM EDT, David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:


The segregated south was a racial police state.


Today, the more I learn about segregation and the Jim Crow system in Virginia, the more I agree with the great Virginia civil rights lawyer Oliver W. Hill Sr., a law partner with Samuel Tucker. Hill found a better way to explain the “Virginia way of life” that helped form me. In 1985, he described life for southern African American citizens during the Jim Crow era: “Virginia and the whole South were police states. There isn’t a question about that. Negroes didn’t serve on juries … You saw no blacks in places like city hall, or public buildings, unless, except, maybe an elevator operator or janitor. And that’s the way it was.”78 If the Virginia of my youth was no democracy, if I call a plantation an enslaved labor farm, then I should also call segregated Virginia by its true name—a racial police state. To be clear, the South of my birth was no democracy.

Seidule, Ty. Robert E. Lee and Me (p. 72). St. Martin's Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 


Ty Seidule pulls no punches. Seidule doesn’t sugar coat. Seidule doesn’t equivocate or spin. Like a soldier, even though also a scholar, he calls a spade a spade and tells the unvarnished truth.


How many people would agree with his labeling plantations “slave labor camps” and the segregated states of the south “racial police states?”


Seidule ends chapter two with this sentence, “We find it hard to confront our past because it’s so ugly, but the alternative to ignoring our racist history is creating a racist future.” p.73


It seems that we have ignored our racist history and are living in a racist present. Confederate flags in a Charlottesville racist rally in August of 2017 led to people being killed and beaten by White Supremacists is a contemporary phenomenon along with Confederate flags being carried through the halls of congress on January 6, 2021 as rioters staged an insurrection to disrupt a democratic government. So I don’t know what Seidule means when he writes that ignoring our racist history is creating a racist future. This is not a speculative future but current behavior to subvert our constitution the same as in 1861.


The question is what should be done?


Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”


  1. Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?

  2. What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”

  3. How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

  4. Would truth commissions and reparations help?


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
image.png

David Markham


Becky Lindroos
 

David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky


Jeffrey Taylor
 

Among those involved with the backlash there is the issue of defining racism.  What counts as racist?

I haven't lynched anyone lately.  I haven't chained a black body to my truck bumper and driven it around town to to fell apart.  I'm not racist.  

I live in a community with one black family.  I like them and talk to them.  I'm not racist.

On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:31:20 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
>     • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

>     • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

>     • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

>     • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).  Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?  - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).

Becky







David Markham
 

Hi Becky, Jeff, et al.

Becky wrote "There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose). "

As an experienced kindergarten teacher you have spent years, I assume, teaching 5 year olds how to share. How can those skills we used with adults in our current world?

David Markham

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 11:31 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
>       • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude. 

>       • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

>       • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

>       • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government. 

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).   Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?   - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies? 

 Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too. 
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court. 

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example. 

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose). 

Becky







johannakurz
 

We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.

I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
> • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

> • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

> • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

> • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).   Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?   - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).

Becky







Sandie Kirkland
 

I grew up in Virginia and we had segregated schools until I was in high school.  My parents were both educators, my mother a teacher and my father a teacher, then principal then assistant superintendent.  When the schools were integrated there was some low key disagreements and the racists were more vocal.  We woke up one morning and a cross had been burned during the night in our yard and another time a rock was put through my father’s windshield.  But integration happened and there were no real issues in the schools and those first kids were quickly brought into the social circles at school although probably not outside of school.

 

My mother befriended one of the first black women teachers and there was some talk from her friends that she was making a big mistake.  She just carried on with the friendship.  Again, as Becky has mentioned, there is plenty of racism in almost every area; the discriminated group may vary by location but racism is alive and well. 

 

Sandie

 

From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 12:52 AM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

 

Among those involved with the backlash there is the issue of defining racism.  What counts as racist?

 

I haven't lynched anyone lately.  I haven't chained a black body to my truck bumper and driven it around town to to fell apart.  I'm not racist.  

 

I live in a community with one black family.  I like them and talk to them.  I'm not racist.

 

On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:31:20 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:

 

 

David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
>     • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

>     • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

>     • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
Image removed by sender.https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

>     • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).  Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?  - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).

Becky






David Markham
 

Hi JoAnna:

I like your sharing the information about Europe. We can learn a lot from each other about how to improve our interactions with each other so they are more just, equitable, and compassionate.

Please continue to share your observations and ideas. I learned a lot from the movie Invictus about Nelson Mandela's attempt to unify South Africa through the use of rugby.

David Markham

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 9:56 AM johannakurz <johannakurz@...> wrote:
We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.

I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
> • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

> • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

> • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

> • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).   Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?   - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).

Becky







David Markham
 

Sandie:

Wonderful story about your folks and yourself. You were pioneers in healing the racial divide.

I find it very inspiring and hopeful.

David Markham👍

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 10:01 AM Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@...> wrote:

I grew up in Virginia and we had segregated schools until I was in high school.  My parents were both educators, my mother a teacher and my father a teacher, then principal then assistant superintendent.  When the schools were integrated there was some low key disagreements and the racists were more vocal.  We woke up one morning and a cross had been burned during the night in our yard and another time a rock was put through my father’s windshield.  But integration happened and there were no real issues in the schools and those first kids were quickly brought into the social circles at school although probably not outside of school.

 

My mother befriended one of the first black women teachers and there was some talk from her friends that she was making a big mistake.  She just carried on with the friendship.  Again, as Becky has mentioned, there is plenty of racism in almost every area; the discriminated group may vary by location but racism is alive and well. 

 

Sandie

 

From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 12:52 AM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

 

Among those involved with the backlash there is the issue of defining racism.  What counts as racist?

 

I haven't lynched anyone lately.  I haven't chained a black body to my truck bumper and driven it around town to to fell apart.  I'm not racist.  

 

I live in a community with one black family.  I like them and talk to them.  I'm not racist.

 

On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:31:20 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:

 

 

David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
>     • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

>     • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

>     • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
Image removed by sender.https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

>     • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).  Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?  - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).

Becky






Jeffrey Taylor
 

Yes.  I was in HS in Virginia about the same time.  There was little opposition where I was, York County, between Williamsburg and Yorktown.  But integration  proceeded with the deliberate speed of a thoroughbred racing turtle.  Almost as if both races were afraid of rocking the boat.  It wouldn't surprise me if we had been the last county in the state get started.  If I remember correctly in my Junior year we had two black students which expanded to four in my Senior year.  

On Monday, July 19, 2021, 10:01:09 AM EDT, Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@...> wrote:


I grew up in Virginia and we had segregated schools until I was in high school.  My parents were both educators, my mother a teacher and my father a teacher, then principal then assistant superintendent.  When the schools were integrated there was some low key disagreements and the racists were more vocal.  We woke up one morning and a cross had been burned during the night in our yard and another time a rock was put through my father’s windshield.  But integration happened and there were no real issues in the schools and those first kids were quickly brought into the social circles at school although probably not outside of school.

 

My mother befriended one of the first black women teachers and there was some talk from her friends that she was making a big mistake.  She just carried on with the friendship.  Again, as Becky has mentioned, there is plenty of racism in almost every area; the discriminated group may vary by location but racism is alive and well. 

 

Sandie

 

From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 12:52 AM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

 

Among those involved with the backlash there is the issue of defining racism.  What counts as racist?

 

I haven't lynched anyone lately.  I haven't chained a black body to my truck bumper and driven it around town to to fell apart.  I'm not racist.  

 

I live in a community with one black family.  I like them and talk to them.  I'm not racist.

 

On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:31:20 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:

 

 

David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
>     • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

>     • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

>     • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
Image removed by sender.https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

>     • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).  Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?  - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).

Becky






Becky Lindroos
 

Yes, Johanna! Please share about Europe! A lot is due to Colonization and neither the US nor Germany were very much involved in that - not by that name anyway. We did our own version of imperialism.

Using Rugby as a way to unify is great! Any sport will do except that baseball and football haven’t worked out perfectly in the US. Blacks weren’t allowed to play - they weren’t even allowed to watch the pro-teams play when Jackie Robinson started playing.

In fact, that just exemplifies what I was saying. We can get so far in our efforts at removing racism but there will always be a hold-out at some point and it will trigger at least some dissatisfaction and that will become the focus.

Just like today - I see where the Coronavirus vaccine has continued to work and the numbers have fallen very nicely. But where the vaccine has not been used, where there’s fear or anger or whatever kind of reluctance and refusal the disease has surged. What’s the focus on the media? The surge.

If we got rid of racism to the extent we’ve got rid of the vulnerability to Covid there *should be* joy in the streets. The racist pockets and/or individuals continuing racist behavior would be found out, complained about, and become the focus. Also there might well be some incidents of accusations without foundation - that would be a real set-back. (And pretty much can’t happen with Covid.)

There is not enough money, self-discipline, or negative consequences to change ourselves with racism. It’s possible that at some point the Covid will be gone (like TB or smallpox). But until we at least have a good reliable measure of what racism is and what it is not, that never will be the case. We can barely define it or call it when we see it. Racism changes its attributes and it rears its ugly head again. (Like not using the N- word didn’t eliminate racism - it just ducked under another word. (The word Black can be said just as ugly as you want.) And Huck Finn is banned from schools because somehow people get the idea that it’s the word itself which is racist.

First: A racist has to see it in himself
Second: A racist has to WANT TO change.

Good luck.

But, David, keep asking the idealistic questions because otherwise no one might ever ask them.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 9:02 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi JoAnna:

I like your sharing the information about Europe. We can learn a lot from each other about how to improve our interactions with each other so they are more just, equitable, and compassionate.

Please continue to share your observations and ideas. I learned a lot from the movie Invictus about Nelson Mandela's attempt to unify South Africa through the use of rugby.

David Markham


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 9:56 AM johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:
We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.

I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky









Jeffrey Taylor
 

There is something to be said about treating adults like 5 year olds but I do understand the connection.  Violence seems to be connected with uncontrolled, purely emotive behavior.  It seems some people experience such an explosion of emotion that rational though is just overwhelmed.  In those cases, where a person just seems to go mad, if you will, emotion just seems to be the only factor driving decision making.  Something like this seems to take place with mob psychology were and individual's constraints are overwhelmed by the emotion of a group which.  In children however, so often it seems those kids were just put on Ritalin or some newer equivalent.  

On Monday, July 19, 2021, 08:16:23 AM EDT, David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:


Hi Becky, Jeff, et al.

Becky wrote "There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose). "

As an experienced kindergarten teacher you have spent years, I assume, teaching 5 year olds how to share. How can those skills we used with adults in our current world?

David Markham

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 11:31 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
>       • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude. 

>       • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

>       • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

>       • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government. 

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).   Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?   - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies? 

 Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too. 
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court. 

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example. 

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose). 

Becky







johannakurz
 

We also have to put into consideration the  meaning or definition of racism.  There is not always unity in the definition, especially when it comes to the legal definition. Here sometimes they talk about "racist discrimination" towards people with different physical characteristis or different race but also unequal treatment, remarks or violent acts towards people of a different religion, ethnicity or nationality.
When is a person white and when is a person black e.g.? Who decides? Is it the genotype or the phenotype?

If people would look a little deeper into the matter they would see how ridiculous it is to be a racist.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: johannakurz <johannakurz@...>
Datum: 19.07.21 15:56 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.

I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> The question is what should be done?
>
> Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
>
> • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

> • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

> • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?

You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

> • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).   Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?   - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.

>
> Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).

Becky







Jeffrey Taylor
 

Maybe not, in the case of South Africa.  The course I took on South African history it seems early colonial history saw a drastic split between the British and the 
Dutch.  When England took over the colony the Dutch trekked outside the colony across the Val river to get away from them. The Transvaal were first to develop a form of apartheid which was more militant than the British version.  Eventually, after gold was found in the Val region, the Dutch were re-absorbed into the colony.  According to some contemporary historians it was through national sports organizations that the two learned how to accommodate with each other, leading to a compromise policy where in a uniform apartheid policy was put in place when the new National Party united the two groups to come to power in 1948.  

In that view rugby was involved in both the creation of a national apartheid policy and with its destruction.  

On Monday, July 19, 2021, 12:52:21 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Yes, Johanna!  Please share about Europe! A lot is due to Colonization and neither the US nor Germany were very much involved in that - not by that name anyway.  We did our own version of imperialism.

Using Rugby as a way to unify is great! Any sport will do except that baseball and football haven’t worked out perfectly in the US. Blacks weren’t allowed to play - they weren’t even allowed to watch the pro-teams play when Jackie Robinson started playing.

In fact, that just exemplifies what I was saying.  We can get so far in our efforts at removing racism but there will always be a hold-out at some point and it will trigger at least some dissatisfaction and that will become the focus.

Just like today -  I see where the Coronavirus vaccine has continued to work and the numbers have fallen very nicely.  But where the vaccine has not been used, where there’s fear or anger or whatever kind of reluctance and refusal the disease has surged.  What’s the focus on the media?  The surge.

If we got rid of racism to the extent we’ve got rid of the vulnerability to Covid there *should be* joy in the streets. The racist pockets and/or individuals continuing racist behavior would be found out, complained about, and become the focus.  Also there might well be some incidents of accusations without foundation - that would be a real set-back.  (And pretty much can’t happen with Covid.) 

There is not enough money, self-discipline, or negative consequences to change ourselves with racism.  It’s possible that at some point the Covid will be gone (like TB or smallpox).  But until we at least have a good reliable measure of what racism is and what it is not, that never will be the case. We can barely define it or call it when we see it.  Racism changes its attributes and it rears its ugly head again.  (Like not using the N- word didn’t eliminate racism - it just ducked under another word.  (The word Black can be said just as ugly as you want.)  And Huck Finn is banned from schools because somehow people get the idea that it’s the word itself which is racist.

First: A racist has to see it in himself
Second: A racist has to WANT TO change.

Good luck. 

But, David, keep asking the idealistic questions because otherwise no one might ever ask them.

Becky

> On Jul 19, 2021, at 9:02 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
>
> Hi JoAnna:
>
> I like your sharing the information about Europe. We can learn a lot from each other about how to improve our interactions with each other so they are more just, equitable, and compassionate.
>
> Please continue to share your observations and ideas. I learned a lot from the movie Invictus about Nelson Mandela's attempt to unify South Africa through the use of rugby.
>
> David Markham
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 9:56 AM johannakurz <johannakurz@...> wrote:
> We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
> Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.
>
> I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.
>
> Johanna
>
>
>
> Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
> Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
> An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
> Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.
>
> David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> > The question is what should be done?
> >
> > Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
> >
> > • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
> Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.
>
> > • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
> What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.
>
> > • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
>
> You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
> (And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)
>
> > • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
> Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.
>
> We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.
>
> The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).  Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?  - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)
>
> What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?
>
> Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
> “It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.
>
> >
> > Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
>
> Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.
>
> There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).
>
> Becky
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







johannakurz
 

Sports is very important because you can reach so many people with it.
Last week the German Olympic soccer team left the game because a black German player was constantly being insulted by a player from the team of Honduras.
Afterwards they said that is was a misunderstanding....a cheap excuse....but they had to apologize to the German team.
We had the European soccer cup and the teams knelt down to give a sign against racism. Something has to be done...fans are so  terrible. Also in this cup it happened...as I remember it were the English fans...that they made monkey noises when a black player had the ball. I hope that the FIFA does something against these fans. They should be banned from the stadium.

P.s. the word black is correct here in Germany as the people of Africa gave themselves the name first. The Afro-Americans have a different history than black people in Europe. We don't use Afro- European.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
Datum: 19.07.21 18:52 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

Yes, Johanna!  Please share about Europe! A lot is due to Colonization and neither the US nor Germany were very much involved in that - not by that name anyway.  We did our own version of imperialism.

Using Rugby as a way to unify is great! Any sport will do except that baseball and football haven’t worked out perfectly in the US. Blacks weren’t allowed to play - they weren’t even allowed to watch the pro-teams play when Jackie Robinson started playing.

In fact, that just exemplifies what I was saying.  We can get so far in our efforts at removing racism but there will always be a hold-out at some point and it will trigger at least some dissatisfaction and that will become the focus.

Just like today -  I see where the Coronavirus vaccine has continued to work and the numbers have fallen very nicely.  But where the vaccine has not been used, where there’s fear or anger or whatever kind of reluctance and refusal the disease has surged.  What’s the focus on the media?  The surge.

If we got rid of racism to the extent we’ve got rid of the vulnerability to Covid there *should be* joy in the streets. The racist pockets and/or individuals continuing racist behavior would be found out, complained about, and become the focus.  Also there might well be some incidents of accusations without foundation - that would be a real set-back.  (And pretty much can’t happen with Covid.)  

There is not enough money, self-discipline, or negative consequences to change ourselves with racism.  It’s possible that at some point the Covid will be gone (like TB or smallpox).  But until we at least have a good reliable measure of what racism is and what it is not, that never will be the case. We can barely define it or call it when we see it.  Racism changes its attributes and it rears its ugly head again.  (Like not using the N- word didn’t eliminate racism - it just ducked under another word.  (The word Black can be said just as ugly as you want.)  And Huck Finn is banned from schools because somehow people get the idea that it’s the word itself which is racist.

First: A racist has to see it in himself
Second: A racist has to WANT TO change.

Good luck.  

But, David, keep asking the idealistic questions because otherwise no one might ever ask them.

Becky

> On Jul 19, 2021, at 9:02 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
>
> Hi JoAnna:
>
> I like your sharing the information about Europe. We can learn a lot from each other about how to improve our interactions with each other so they are more just, equitable, and compassionate.
>
> Please continue to share your observations and ideas. I learned a lot from the movie Invictus about Nelson Mandela's attempt to unify South Africa through the use of rugby.
>
> David Markham
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 9:56 AM johannakurz <johannakurz@...> wrote:
> We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
> Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.
>
> I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.
>
> Johanna
>
>
>
> Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
> Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
> An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
> Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.
>
> David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> > The question is what should be done?
> >
> > Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
> >
> > • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
> Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.
>
> > • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
> What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.
>
> > • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
>
> You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
> (And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)
>
> > • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
> Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.
>
> We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.
>
> The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).   Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?   - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)
>
> What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?
>
> Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
> “It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.
>
> >
> > Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
>
> Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.
>
> There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).
>
> Becky
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Becky Lindroos
 

On Jul 19, 2021, at 7:16 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
As an experienced kindergarten teacher you have spent years, I assume, teaching 5 year olds how to share. How can those skills we used with adults in our current world?
This is easy. I was the dictator and I had back-up in the principal and the parents. Sharing was a rule. (The actual “rule” was “Be Nice to Everybody.”)

We role-played how to share. If you want the red crayon but Johnny is using it what do you do? - You ask if you can have it next. They practiced the words - they role played it. If someone else is already next find another crayon or wait. The kids almost always shared but …

But even this didn’t always work - kids are different. One day David grabbed the ball away from Victor. Victor started screaming. I turned around and said “What’s going on here?” David answered me with, “He won’t let go!” (!!!!!). LOL!!! But that’s honestly what David believed - he saw Victor as being the problem. That was David’s attitude. He was like a mini-Trump.

David had problems all the way through elementary school. No - he did not need to be home-schooled because that would have resulted in more of the same spoiled brat last child of older parents with doting older siblings (ready to teach him their gangster ways.) What David needed was to get used to working and playing WITH other kids. (Sports was often helpful.)

But Victor had problems, too. He was ODD (oppositional) - screamed and hollered and threw things if he was told “no.” His mother had been the same way according to my principal who had been her 6th grade teacher. When we suspended him from school one time they brought him anyway and no one (including grandparents) answered the phone at home. The vice-principal had to mind Victor. LOL! That taught us not to suspend Victor is what it did. I understand he gained some maturity by 5th or 6th grade and they split up those two boys starting in 1st grade.

Becky


Becky Lindroos
 

Yeah she was! That would be scary.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 11:13 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Sandie:

Wonderful story about your folks and yourself. You were pioneers in healing the racial divide.

I find it very inspiring and hopeful.

David Markham👍


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 10:01 AM Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@triad.rr.com> wrote:
I grew up in Virginia and we had segregated schools until I was in high school. My parents were both educators, my mother a teacher and my father a teacher, then principal then assistant superintendent. When the schools were integrated there was some low key disagreements and the racists were more vocal. We woke up one morning and a cross had been burned during the night in our yard and another time a rock was put through my father’s windshield. But integration happened and there were no real issues in the schools and those first kids were quickly brought into the social circles at school although probably not outside of school.



My mother befriended one of the first black women teachers and there was some talk from her friends that she was making a big mistake. She just carried on with the friendship. Again, as Becky has mentioned, there is plenty of racism in almost every area; the discriminated group may vary by location but racism is alive and well.



Sandie



From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 12:52 AM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.



Among those involved with the backlash there is the issue of defining racism. What counts as racist?



I haven't lynched anyone lately. I haven't chained a black body to my truck bumper and driven it around town to to fell apart. I'm not racist.



I live in a community with one black family. I like them and talk to them. I'm not racist.



On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:31:20 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:





David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
<~WRD0000.jpg>https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky









Becky Lindroos
 

Sports again? I’m going to have to look into this - be more appreciative or something. I like baseball. Football is okay. I see women on the basketball courts and tennis.

Let’s all get out there and watch TV for the Olympics. - Opening ceremony is 7 AM (EST) on Friday July 23 - many stations including NBC. See all the different nations and flags and colors of skin and uniforms. Yay!

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Maybe not, in the case of South Africa. The course I took on South African history it seems early colonial history saw a drastic split between the British and the
Dutch. When England took over the colony the Dutch trekked outside the colony across the Val river to get away from them. The Transvaal were first to develop a form of apartheid which was more militant than the British version. Eventually, after gold was found in the Val region, the Dutch were re-absorbed into the colony. According to some contemporary historians it was through national sports organizations that the two learned how to accommodate with each other, leading to a compromise policy where in a uniform apartheid policy was put in place when the new National Party united the two groups to come to power in 1948.

In that view rugby was involved in both the creation of a national apartheid policy and with its destruction.

On Monday, July 19, 2021, 12:52:21 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Yes, Johanna! Please share about Europe! A lot is due to Colonization and neither the US nor Germany were very much involved in that - not by that name anyway. We did our own version of imperialism.

Using Rugby as a way to unify is great! Any sport will do except that baseball and football haven’t worked out perfectly in the US. Blacks weren’t allowed to play - they weren’t even allowed to watch the pro-teams play when Jackie Robinson started playing.

In fact, that just exemplifies what I was saying. We can get so far in our efforts at removing racism but there will always be a hold-out at some point and it will trigger at least some dissatisfaction and that will become the focus.

Just like today - I see where the Coronavirus vaccine has continued to work and the numbers have fallen very nicely. But where the vaccine has not been used, where there’s fear or anger or whatever kind of reluctance and refusal the disease has surged. What’s the focus on the media? The surge.

If we got rid of racism to the extent we’ve got rid of the vulnerability to Covid there *should be* joy in the streets. The racist pockets and/or individuals continuing racist behavior would be found out, complained about, and become the focus. Also there might well be some incidents of accusations without foundation - that would be a real set-back. (And pretty much can’t happen with Covid.)

There is not enough money, self-discipline, or negative consequences to change ourselves with racism. It’s possible that at some point the Covid will be gone (like TB or smallpox). But until we at least have a good reliable measure of what racism is and what it is not, that never will be the case. We can barely define it or call it when we see it. Racism changes its attributes and it rears its ugly head again. (Like not using the N- word didn’t eliminate racism - it just ducked under another word. (The word Black can be said just as ugly as you want.) And Huck Finn is banned from schools because somehow people get the idea that it’s the word itself which is racist.

First: A racist has to see it in himself
Second: A racist has to WANT TO change.

Good luck.

But, David, keep asking the idealistic questions because otherwise no one might ever ask them.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 9:02 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi JoAnna:

I like your sharing the information about Europe. We can learn a lot from each other about how to improve our interactions with each other so they are more just, equitable, and compassionate.

Please continue to share your observations and ideas. I learned a lot from the movie Invictus about Nelson Mandela's attempt to unify South Africa through the use of rugby.

David Markham


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 9:56 AM johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:
We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.

I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky














Becky Lindroos
 

Interesting. Sports is like a dictatorship and a democracy both at the same time. A good mix mostly. The fans can be kicked out. The players can be penalized or banned. The group (as a whole) has to agree on rules which are enforceable. Teams and nations can participate or not -

But still, there will always be disputes - so we will always need tolerance.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 12:22 PM, johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:

Sports is very important because you can reach so many people with it.
Last week the German Olympic soccer team left the game because a black German player was constantly being insulted by a player from the team of Honduras.
Afterwards they said that is was a misunderstanding....a cheap excuse....but they had to apologize to the German team.
We had the European soccer cup and the teams knelt down to give a sign against racism. Something has to be done...fans are so terrible. Also in this cup it happened...as I remember it were the English fans...that they made monkey noises when a black player had the ball. I hope that the FIFA does something against these fans. They should be banned from the stadium.

P.s. the word black is correct here in Germany as the people of Africa gave themselves the name first. The Afro-Americans have a different history than black people in Europe. We don't use Afro- European.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 19.07.21 18:52 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

Yes, Johanna! Please share about Europe! A lot is due to Colonization and neither the US nor Germany were very much involved in that - not by that name anyway. We did our own version of imperialism.

Using Rugby as a way to unify is great! Any sport will do except that baseball and football haven’t worked out perfectly in the US. Blacks weren’t allowed to play - they weren’t even allowed to watch the pro-teams play when Jackie Robinson started playing.

In fact, that just exemplifies what I was saying. We can get so far in our efforts at removing racism but there will always be a hold-out at some point and it will trigger at least some dissatisfaction and that will become the focus.

Just like today - I see where the Coronavirus vaccine has continued to work and the numbers have fallen very nicely. But where the vaccine has not been used, where there’s fear or anger or whatever kind of reluctance and refusal the disease has surged. What’s the focus on the media? The surge.

If we got rid of racism to the extent we’ve got rid of the vulnerability to Covid there *should be* joy in the streets. The racist pockets and/or individuals continuing racist behavior would be found out, complained about, and become the focus. Also there might well be some incidents of accusations without foundation - that would be a real set-back. (And pretty much can’t happen with Covid.)

There is not enough money, self-discipline, or negative consequences to change ourselves with racism. It’s possible that at some point the Covid will be gone (like TB or smallpox). But until we at least have a good reliable measure of what racism is and what it is not, that never will be the case. We can barely define it or call it when we see it. Racism changes its attributes and it rears its ugly head again. (Like not using the N- word didn’t eliminate racism - it just ducked under another word. (The word Black can be said just as ugly as you want.) And Huck Finn is banned from schools because somehow people get the idea that it’s the word itself which is racist.

First: A racist has to see it in himself
Second: A racist has to WANT TO change.

Good luck.

But, David, keep asking the idealistic questions because otherwise no one might ever ask them.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 9:02 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi JoAnna:

I like your sharing the information about Europe. We can learn a lot from each other about how to improve our interactions with each other so they are more just, equitable, and compassionate.

Please continue to share your observations and ideas. I learned a lot from the movie Invictus about Nelson Mandela's attempt to unify South Africa through the use of rugby.

David Markham


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 9:56 AM johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:
We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.

I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky














Sandie Kirkland
 

Well I guess it would have been scary if we had seen it happening but it happened during the night and we just saw the aftermath the next morning. I was so little it didn't really affect me and I'm not sure how my parents felt about it as they didn't discuss it with us outside of telling us what had happened.

Sandie

-----Original Message-----
From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Becky Lindroos
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:38 PM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

Yeah she was! That would be scary.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 11:13 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Sandie:

Wonderful story about your folks and yourself. You were pioneers in healing the racial divide.

I find it very inspiring and hopeful.

David Markham👍


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 10:01 AM Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@triad.rr.com> wrote:
I grew up in Virginia and we had segregated schools until I was in high school. My parents were both educators, my mother a teacher and my father a teacher, then principal then assistant superintendent. When the schools were integrated there was some low key disagreements and the racists were more vocal. We woke up one morning and a cross had been burned during the night in our yard and another time a rock was put through my father’s windshield. But integration happened and there were no real issues in the schools and those first kids were quickly brought into the social circles at school although probably not outside of school.



My mother befriended one of the first black women teachers and there was some talk from her friends that she was making a big mistake. She just carried on with the friendship. Again, as Becky has mentioned, there is plenty of racism in almost every area; the discriminated group may vary by location but racism is alive and well.



Sandie



From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 12:52 AM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.



Among those involved with the backlash there is the issue of defining racism. What counts as racist?



I haven't lynched anyone lately. I haven't chained a black body to my truck bumper and driven it around town to to fell apart. I'm not racist.



I live in a community with one black family. I like them and talk to them. I'm not racist.



On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:31:20 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:





David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
<~WRD0000.jpg>https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky