REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1


Becky Lindroos
 

Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky


Jeffrey Taylor
 

There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition.  The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat.  The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief  beyond the realm of raw fact.  

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it.  But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty.  It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism.  I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.  

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media.  Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.  





On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky





David Markham
 

Hi Becky:

The Lost Cause of the Confederacy was the hope of continuing slavery as a basis for their capitalistic economy where the 1% got rich from free labor. Can you imagine running a business with no labor costs? Not only was there no labor costs, but the labor itself, considered property, had value and could be liquidated just as a business can sell its equipment, land, buildings, inventory, etc.

The way of life of an elite exploiting other human beings to live as ladies and gentlemen has been romanticized to the extent that it is a way of life that many people admire and aspire to. This economic system has been practiced in other times and places in the form of royalty in a monarchy or squires and barons in a feudal system.

The British are still enamored with their Monarchy and royalty just as CEOs are admired by the working classes exploited to acquire their million dollar salaries.

I think Isabel Wilerson is onto something with your metaphor of a caste system ingrained in the U.S. to the extent that people enact it and live within it outside of conscious awareness most of the time.

My conscious awareness on race issues was impacted by so many movies and books that I could not name them all. I think some of the early books that awakened me were Black Like Me, To Kill A Mockingbird, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, Autobiography of Malcom X, etc. 

Most impactful was not books or movies but the TV broadcasts of the various civil rights protests and the violent attempts to repress them by assaulting, beating, bombing, and killing people advocating for human rights in the south.

It was a brutal period in U.S. history with the lynchings, shootings, bombing, beatings etc. Some of those TV images are still burned into my memory. 

I never liked the Uncle Remus stories or Gone With the Wind and Little Black Sambo, Aunt Jamima, etc. As a kid in the 50s I knew it wasn't true and right. Minstrel shows made me cringe. My family never said much about any of this other than that it was wrong and that black people are just as good as anybody else. I was taught to go out of my way to be kind to everyone. Luckily, this was modeled for me in my family, in my Catholic Church, in my school, and everywhere else in my community. Segregation and discrimination were things that happened far way in other states where people were less enlightened, namely in the south. I remember feeling glad and relieved that I lived in New York State and  I didn't live down there. I was probably nine or ten when I first developed this awareness of racism in the world.

I am grateful for my upbringing. It has stood me in good stead.

David Markham

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 6:14 PM Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition.  The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat.  The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief  beyond the realm of raw fact.  

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it.  But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty.  It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism.  I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.  

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media.  Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.  





On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky





Becky Lindroos
 

Jeffrey, that’s what I usually think of. The “Lost Cause” is all about the romance behind having fought the good fight with all you’ve got and losing and then having what you have left taken away. All you have at the end of that is your pride.

One of my favorite songs in the whole world is :
The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down (as sung by Joan Baez)

But it was “redeemed” by someone which is artistically okay I suppose but I don’t think it needed it. This is a highly emotional song about the night the Confederacy - for which too many had died - became a Lost Cause. And it mirrored a lot of feelings about the US loss in the War in Vietnam - (originally released in 1969). We’d kind of lost our self-respect. It’s a song of grieving!

Virgil Caine is my name and I drove on the Danville train
'Til so much cavalry came and tore up the tracks again
In the winter of '65, we were hungry, just barely alive
I took the train to Richmond that fell
It was a time I remember, oh so well
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the bells were ringin'
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singin'
They went, "Na, na-na-na, na-na"
"Na, na, na-na, na-na, na-na-na”

Back with my wife in Tennessee and one day she said to me
"Virgil, quick, come see, there goes Robert E. Lee"
Now, I don't mind, I'm chopping wood
And I don't care if the money's no good
Just take what you need and leave the rest
But they should never have taken the very best
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the bells were ringin'
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singin'
They went, "Na, na-na-na, na-na"
"Na, na, na-na, na-na, na-na-na”

Like my father before me, I'm a workin' man
And like my brother before me, I took a rebel stand
Well, he was just eighteen, proud and brave
But a yankee laid him in his grave
I swear by the blood below my feet
You can't raise the Cain back up when it's in defeat
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the bells were ringin'
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singin'
They went, "Na, na-na-na, na-na"
"Na, na, na-na, na-na, na-na-na”


I saw Joan and her sister Mimi sing this on the lawn at Stanford in probably 1974 (?) Oh my - I cried.

Becky

On Jul 3, 2021, at 5:14 PM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition. The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat. The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief beyond the realm of raw fact.

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it. But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty. It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism. I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media. Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.





On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky





Jim Harris
 

Even though I've spent most of my life living in the South, I've always been an outsider. I've never had any particular interest in the Civil War other than watching the Ken Burns documentary. My mother took me and my sister to see Gone With the Wind when we were teens. She loved that book and movie. I love old movies, especially from the 1930s, and consider 1939 a peak year. But I never liked Gone With the Wind. I disliked both Scarlet and Rhett. I've always thought the confederates were about slavery and that was disgusting. I never romanticized the Antebellum South, although people all around me did.

I've known many Southern men who had a fascination with the Civil War, but most guys I've known in the South haven't spent much time talking or reading about it. I've always avoided people who were racists, so I'm not sure what they think about the war. However, I think the racism was so ingrained that the history of where it came from is a minor consideration.

Most people don't think about the past or history. I'm not sure if all those confederate flag wavers spend that much time on history either. They are like Qanon believers, just accepting current conspiracy theories about black and Jews. I bet they cling to the statues and memorials out of modern attachments and associations rather than real sympathy for past ideas. Whatever they believe is a weird mixture of modern racism, and not still fighting 19th-century battles.

Ty Seidule's fixation on being a Southern gentleman is not common, I don't think. The other day I saw an article on Flipboard that said 70% of Republicans don't want to remove confederate statues and memorials. I don't think most of them care about real history. I think they've taken that side because they hate liberals and we're against confederate statues and memorials. They like their myths and beliefs just the way they are - mere placenames. Probably if they read accurate biographies of the men memorialized they'd be disgusted too, but they won't read anything.

For a lot of people, they just like the status quo. They don't want to learn the reality behind the facade.

Jim


Jim Harris
 

Becky, I've always loved that song too. But there's a difference between describing people and being them or admiring them. The song was written by Robbie Robertson, who is a Canadian. I think he was just painting a picture of what was.


Sandie Kirkland
 

I agree with your post, Jeff.  One issue I have with books like this is the underlying assumption that racism is just a Southern thing.  I believe my African-American friends would be quick to tell anyone that the racism encountered in other parts of the country is just as vicious and hurtful; it’s more a matter of their population being underrepresented than of acceptance.  As Jeff says, Southerners in some ways are more integrated than other areas.  We play together, our neighborhoods are integrated and we work together.  My neighborhood is probably 65% white, 30% African American and 5% Indian and Hispanic.  That’s not to say there isn’t racism; there is but not everyone in the South is racist and many people have friends of many races. 

 

One thing I’ve noticed is the rise of interracial marriages.  Maybe I’m more attuned to it as my best friend is married to an African American man and so I see the issue through her eyes.  When they got together, their union was barely considered legal.  Today, interracial relationships and marriages are common in our area and in the past few years, I’ve noticed a marked increase in representing these relationships on TV shows and in movies.  Do you think this increased spotlight and the increasing frequency will have a major effect on racism?

 

Sandie

 

From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 6:15 PM
To: allnonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1

 

There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition.  The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat.  The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief  beyond the realm of raw fact.  

 

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it.  But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty.  It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism.  I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.  

 

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media.  Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.  

 

 

 

 

 

On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:

 

 

Q3 -

 

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

 

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

 

Becky

 

 

 

 


Merilee Olson
 

I’ve lost the thread, Jim. What song? Saw a great doc on Robbie Robertson recently called something like Then We Were Brothers.

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 9:03 AM Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@...> wrote:
Becky, I've always loved that song too. But there's a difference between describing people and being them or admiring them. The song was written by Robbie Robertson, who is a Canadian. I think he was just painting a picture of what was.


Becky Lindroos
 

Merilee, I sent the lyrics to The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down - one of my favorite songs. I love it because of the history and the emotion, not because of any great love I have for the Confederacy - I’m pretty neutral about that. I’m interested because it’s affected so much of our history - but somewhat distanced emotionally. (My granddaughter was going out with a Black guy and they and friends did some of the BLM marches around here - I applaud her!.)

Becky

On Jul 4, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve lost the thread, Jim. What song? Saw a great doc on Robbie Robertson recently called something like Then We Were Brothers.

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 9:03 AM Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@outlook.com> wrote:
Becky, I've always loved that song too. But there's a difference between describing people and being them or admiring them. The song was written by Robbie Robertson, who is a Canadian. I think he was just painting a picture of what was.



Merilee Olson
 

Thanks, Bekah.

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 11:51 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Merilee,  I sent the lyrics to The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down - one of my favorite songs.  I love it because of the history and the emotion, not because of any great love I have for the Confederacy - I’m pretty neutral about that.  I’m interested because it’s affected so much of our history - but somewhat distanced emotionally.  (My granddaughter was going out with a Black  guy and they and friends did some of the BLM marches around here - I applaud her!.)

Becky

> On Jul 4, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:
>
> I’ve lost the thread, Jim. What song? Saw a great doc on Robbie Robertson recently called something like Then We Were Brothers.
>
> On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 9:03 AM Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@...> wrote:
> Becky, I've always loved that song too. But there's a difference between describing people and being them or admiring them. The song was written by Robbie Robertson, who is a Canadian. I think he was just painting a picture of what was.
>
>
>







johannakurz
 

I am glad that I never read Gone with the Wind. I did not grow up in the United States, therefore, was not so exposed to all these myths. However, I read Uncle Tom's Cabin and To Kill a Mockingbird when I was young. Today, there is a lot of good literature out there...e.g. Underground Railroad by Colson Whitehead...or the novels by Toni Morrison, Alice Walker etc...As a teenager I also read James Baldwin.
When I came to the United States and went to college and then to university, I met a lot of African- Americans who told me that American history is written by white people and not correct. I was interested and read more about the history...books they recommended. Most interesting were the discussions at the university with 2 African American professors. I remember that the class was called Multicultural Dimensions in the Counseling Process.The discussions became very fierce. That was in 1989 and it was that the white students felt very much attacked, they refused to listen, many left the room, some said, that they refuse to take on the guilt, because they were not responsible what happened in the past, some even cried. I was surprised that they never dealt with their past. We Germans do it constantly and have to say that we did it because of the Americans because they held up the mirror to our face...and it came to me as a shock, that they dealt so little about their own history. 
When I was in Memphis I visited Graceland and the Lorraine Motel. There was a pilgrimage going to Graceland....there were only us and a school class at the Lorraine Motel. I had the feeling, that people are not interested in this part if the history.
Oh I forgot...I read The March by Doctorov...but this was about General Sherman.
A word to the Confederate flag...it is a symbol of racism around the world. I worked with Skinheads and NeoNazis here in Germany and they used it. I made them remove it from the wall. The symbol is a strong as the swastika.

Johanna 



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
Datum: 03.07.21 15:25 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1

Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky





Carol Mannchen
 

I am not reading this book, but am following alone with interest as always.  I have lived in the South since I was 10 years old and in the 6th grade, but my family was totally midwestern.  My father was as racist as most racists I have come across.  I don't think he would have condoned slavery, but, maybe.  Way back in his family, I think there were some slave holders.  Still, it was us and them.  My Mother too, but she was quieter about it.

I am still surprised by interracial marriages, but I think probably this is the only way true integration is going to happen.  I am starting to love seeing it.

David, your Course on Miracles sounds a lot like the theology of Richard Rohr with The Universal Christ.  His group on Facebook talks a lot about non-duality and we are trying to learn it at my church.  Have you read any of his stuff?

Carol Mannchen

Hermitage, TN
oldlawmom@...
615-310-4504




On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 9:09 AM Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@...> wrote:

I agree with your post, Jeff.  One issue I have with books like this is the underlying assumption that racism is just a Southern thing.  I believe my African-American friends would be quick to tell anyone that the racism encountered in other parts of the country is just as vicious and hurtful; it’s more a matter of their population being underrepresented than of acceptance.  As Jeff says, Southerners in some ways are more integrated than other areas.  We play together, our neighborhoods are integrated and we work together.  My neighborhood is probably 65% white, 30% African American and 5% Indian and Hispanic.  That’s not to say there isn’t racism; there is but not everyone in the South is racist and many people have friends of many races. 

 

One thing I’ve noticed is the rise of interracial marriages.  Maybe I’m more attuned to it as my best friend is married to an African American man and so I see the issue through her eyes.  When they got together, their union was barely considered legal.  Today, interracial relationships and marriages are common in our area and in the past few years, I’ve noticed a marked increase in representing these relationships on TV shows and in movies.  Do you think this increased spotlight and the increasing frequency will have a major effect on racism?

 

Sandie

 

From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 6:15 PM
To: allnonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1

 

There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition.  The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat.  The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief  beyond the realm of raw fact.  

 

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it.  But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty.  It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism.  I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.  

 

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media.  Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.  

 

 

 

 

 

On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:

 

 

Q3 -

 

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

 

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

 

Becky

 

 

 

 


Becky Lindroos
 

Sandie - I think you’re right about there being as much racism in the north as there is in the South. I doubt I’d say “more" but maybe with more info I could say that.

This is good:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-myth-liberal-north-erases-long-history-white-violence-180975661/
"There is a toxic myth that encourages white people in the North to see themselves as free from racism and erases African Americans from the pre-Civil War North, where they are still being told that they don’t belong. What Langston experienced was not the massacre in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in 1921 or Rosewood, Florida, in 1923—this was Cincinnati, Ohio, in 1841, 20 years before the Civil War broke out. This was the third such racist attack against African Americans in Cincinnati in 12 years.”
***

Yeah! It was easy for Northerners to be judgmental (smug?) about the South in general for many decades - like when I was growing up. In the North (especially in the East) there was a lot of prejudice against a Southern accent even. Northerners thought a Southern accent sounded like it must come from a really stupid person. (True! Watch a few old sit-coms from prior to 1975. )

As different skin colors moved north so did the racism. “They’re gonna take over!” - I heard that in both California and North Dakota over the decades. (They said that about the Okies, too, fwiw.)

The thing is the immigrants moved *to find jobs* and that part that stirS fear. The darker people would accept lower wages and they might be harder workers. Whose jobs/neighborhoods, women, etc. were they going to get?

Read Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age is a 2004 book by historian Kevin Boyle. It tells Detroit’s story

And this is Minnesota - it’s not the "Minnesota Nice” we hear about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYYyowuOxKk
Get up to about 4 minutes there to start - then it goes to about 6:30 and switches to the panel with 11:45, 15:05, and 19:50 as breaks before the moderator opens it up with questions. It’s pretty good but I didn’t listen to al of it.

https://thesocietypages.org

And not to ignore the fact that a lot of racist whites moved out of the South too and went to places like the San Joaquin Valley and LA in California or Denver (where the KKK ruled).

About the stares in the YouTube thing - it’s not about being Black - it’s about being different. That’s the kind of stares whites get in China or Africa or Bolivia. A green person would get that in New York. I had never seen a real life black person until I was 14 or so and I probably stared. It was not because I was racist. To ignore the person would maybe have been worse - country folk do NOT like how city folks just ignore each other (no eye contact at all) on the streets of the big cities. When I moved to California I’d seen brown people but … omg - so many? And what are tacos and I don’t understand that language. And my classmates thought I had a funny accent. I suppose Blacks might be more sensitive to those things which white people have to ignore. ???

Becky

On Jul 4, 2021, at 9:09 AM, Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@triad.rr.com> wrote:

I agree with your post, Jeff. One issue I have with books like this is the underlying assumption that racism is just a Southern thing. I believe my African-American friends would be quick to tell anyone that the racism encountered in other parts of the country is just as vicious and hurtful; it’s more a matter of their population being underrepresented than of acceptance. As Jeff says, Southerners in some ways are more integrated than other areas. We play together, our neighborhoods are integrated and we work together. My neighborhood is probably 65% white, 30% African American and 5% Indian and Hispanic. That’s not to say there isn’t racism; there is but not everyone in the South is racist and many people have friends of many races.



One thing I’ve noticed is the rise of interracial marriages. Maybe I’m more attuned to it as my best friend is married to an African American man and so I see the issue through her eyes. When they got together, their union was barely considered legal. Today, interracial relationships and marriages are common in our area and in the past few years, I’ve noticed a marked increase in representing these relationships on TV shows and in movies. Do you think this increased spotlight and the increasing frequency will have a major effect on racism?



Sandie



From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 6:15 PM
To: allnonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1



There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition. The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat. The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief beyond the realm of raw fact.



Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it. But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty. It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism. I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.



Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media. Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.











On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:





Q3 -



• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?



• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?



Becky











johannakurz
 

I am not so sure whether the biggest impact upon our understanding of racism is personal experience. I think that the majority of people develop racism because of learning...through family, media, friends, internet, films.
In Germany, most people did not even have contact  with Jewish people. Even today, it is the same....yes, I think myths which spread around contribute to it too. A lot of young people radicalize through internet. I heard a lit if Arabs, believing that Jews eat children..they hear that in the media.
In Europe we have a lot of exchange programs for the youth to travel to different countries and meet the people in real life. Direct contact can help to overcome prejudice.
I think that a personal experience hits deeper, but in percentage, these experiences are minor.

Johanna 



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: "Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io" <jatta97@...>
Datum: 04.07.21 00:14 (GMT+01:00)
An: "AllNonfiction@groups.io" <allnonfiction@groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1

There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition.  The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat.  The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief  beyond the realm of raw fact.  

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it.  But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty.  It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism.  I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.  

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media.  Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.  





On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky





Magda
 

Johanna- thank you for providing this perspective!

Magda

On Jul 4, 2021, at 1:21 PM, johannakurz <johannakurz@...> wrote:


I am not so sure whether the biggest impact upon our understanding of racism is personal experience. I think that the majority of people develop racism because of learning...through family, media, friends, internet, films.
In Germany, most people did not even have contact  with Jewish people. Even today, it is the same....yes, I think myths which spread around contribute to it too. A lot of young people radicalize through internet. I heard a lit if Arabs, believing that Jews eat children..they hear that in the media.
In Europe we have a lot of exchange programs for the youth to travel to different countries and meet the people in real life. Direct contact can help to overcome prejudice.
I think that a personal experience hits deeper, but in percentage, these experiences are minor.

Johanna 



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: "Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io" <jatta97@...>
Datum: 04.07.21 00:14 (GMT+01:00)
An: "AllNonfiction@groups.io" <allnonfiction@groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1

There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition.  The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat.  The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief  beyond the realm of raw fact.  

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it.  But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty.  It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism.  I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.  

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media.  Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.  





On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky





David Markham
 

Hi Carol:

Yes, I have read a lot of Richard Rohr's books, The Universal Christ is his most recent one. Rohr brings to Western Christianity what the Eastern religions have been teaching for millenia which is the nonduality of the Divine Presence. 

This nonduality is antithetical to the monotheistic religions which anthropomorphizes God as a father-like figure. This mythic understanding has had its place in the evolutionary trajectory of homo sapiens but is on the wane and does not serve us well in this post modern world we are living in.

As homo sapiens continues to evolve it must transcend this egocentric and ethnocentric understanding of the world if we are to survive. We are slowly moving forward to a world centric and what many are now calling an integral comprehension of consciousness. Rohr is a little behind the edge of evolutionary thought about spirituality but he is helping people at earlier stages of consciousness to grow and this is a good thing.

Thanks for your comment.

David Markham

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 1:06 PM Carol Mannchen <oldlawmom@...> wrote:
I am not reading this book, but am following alone with interest as always.  I have lived in the South since I was 10 years old and in the 6th grade, but my family was totally midwestern.  My father was as racist as most racists I have come across.  I don't think he would have condoned slavery, but, maybe.  Way back in his family, I think there were some slave holders.  Still, it was us and them.  My Mother too, but she was quieter about it.

I am still surprised by interracial marriages, but I think probably this is the only way true integration is going to happen.  I am starting to love seeing it.

David, your Course on Miracles sounds a lot like the theology of Richard Rohr with The Universal Christ.  His group on Facebook talks a lot about non-duality and we are trying to learn it at my church.  Have you read any of his stuff?

Carol Mannchen

Hermitage, TN
oldlawmom@...
615-310-4504




On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 9:09 AM Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@...> wrote:

I agree with your post, Jeff.  One issue I have with books like this is the underlying assumption that racism is just a Southern thing.  I believe my African-American friends would be quick to tell anyone that the racism encountered in other parts of the country is just as vicious and hurtful; it’s more a matter of their population being underrepresented than of acceptance.  As Jeff says, Southerners in some ways are more integrated than other areas.  We play together, our neighborhoods are integrated and we work together.  My neighborhood is probably 65% white, 30% African American and 5% Indian and Hispanic.  That’s not to say there isn’t racism; there is but not everyone in the South is racist and many people have friends of many races. 

 

One thing I’ve noticed is the rise of interracial marriages.  Maybe I’m more attuned to it as my best friend is married to an African American man and so I see the issue through her eyes.  When they got together, their union was barely considered legal.  Today, interracial relationships and marriages are common in our area and in the past few years, I’ve noticed a marked increase in representing these relationships on TV shows and in movies.  Do you think this increased spotlight and the increasing frequency will have a major effect on racism?

 

Sandie

 

From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 6:15 PM
To: allnonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1

 

There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition.  The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat.  The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief  beyond the realm of raw fact.  

 

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it.  But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty.  It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism.  I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.  

 

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media.  Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.  

 

 

 

 

 

On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:

 

 

Q3 -

 

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

 

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

 

Becky

 

 

 

 


Jeffrey Taylor
 

I agree with you insofar as we both assess personal experience as deeper than media content.  I also agree that people are exposed to beliefs through media.  But I don't think exposure directly translates into contagion. If media created a constant flow of a single content as in totalerian countries, there would be increased likelihood of contagion.  But there is little evidence of a single train of thought for any subject on the internet.  I think it is more likely that people will use media to find what they want to hear rather than explore new trains of thought and adopt a new pattern of belief.  It does happen but most people would not turn to public media as a primary source if they were questioning and seeking answers.  Media is one source of belief among many in society.  Family, church, class, employment, education among the others.  I don't know if there is any agreement among sociologists as ti which one is the most persuasive.  I'm inclined to suppose personal experience is most powerful but only if packs in a lot of emotion.  Public media tends to leave me cold.  Personal approvals from public figures tend to leave me unmoved.  If my employment figured as part of my sense of identity that would move me.  I have worked in aerospace all my working life but it does not make me feel that is part of who I am.  My emotions reside in experience, my own and the people  with whom I have positive relationships.  So that is what I see as the prime mover. 


On Sunday, July 4, 2021, 01:21:22 PM EDT, johannakurz <johannakurz@...> wrote:


I am not so sure whether the biggest impact upon our understanding of racism is personal experience. I think that the majority of people develop racism because of learning...through family, media, friends, internet, films.
In Germany, most people did not even have contact  with Jewish people. Even today, it is the same....yes, I think myths which spread around contribute to it too. A lot of young people radicalize through internet. I heard a lit if Arabs, believing that Jews eat children..they hear that in the media.
In Europe we have a lot of exchange programs for the youth to travel to different countries and meet the people in real life. Direct contact can help to overcome prejudice.
I think that a personal experience hits deeper, but in percentage, these experiences are minor.

Johanna 



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: "Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io" <jatta97@...>
Datum: 04.07.21 00:14 (GMT+01:00)
An: "AllNonfiction@groups.io" <allnonfiction@groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1

There are a lot of variables in Lost Cause mythology but key are that the South out fought the war in both skills and loyalty but the North won through attrition.  The South valued honor and displayed in even in defeat.  The essential ingredient is an emotional, idealization or romanticism of the Confederacy which drives belief  beyond the realm of raw fact.  

Southerners, both black and white, played together as children and thought little about it.  But that came to an about end about the time the girls hit puberty.  It is the realization of this that drives to the core of racism.  I wonder if Seidule will say anything of this, directly or indirectly.  

Regardless of where we reside, personal experience is the deciding factor in awareness of racism, for most people, not media.  Regardless of residency or race, the greatest impact upon our awareness and understanding of racism is personal experience.  





On Saturday, July 3, 2021, 09:25:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky





Becky Lindroos
 

I read Gone With the Wind when I was in about the 8th grade. My mom told me it was one of her favorite books of all time and that she had absolutely adored it when she first read it - 1939 or so, I think - she was 15? Just ripe for it. I never saw the movie and I never really cared - I certainly could have.

Johanna, Americans in the 1980s had to justify going to war at all against anyone - I mean, after Vietnam our world image and self-appraisal was taking some hits.

In the 1960s the US sided with South Africa on Apartheid because we had Jim Crow. Then we passed our Civil Rights bills and after awhile we pushed on South Africa. They’re not having an easy time of it. Sometimes rising expectations might push us to want more and more and more - from ourselves as well as for ourselves.

Yes, there are a lot of excellent books about Black life out now and I’ve read Colson Whitehead, Toni Morrison, Alice Walker and many (many) others - S.A. Cosby, James McBride. I also enjoy books about Native Americans or Luis Alberto Urrea and other minorities or immigrants. Yes I read Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn (maybe that should wait for college) - and Uncle Tom’s Cabin and more -

Right now I’m reading At Night All Blood Is Black by David Diop - Diop is Senegalese and French and the book is about a Senegalese soldier fighting for the French during WWI. Historical fiction and very (!) grim but good.

Books about the old South are still popular because my mom still reads some once in awhile - but don’t you ever show a hero white slave owner (for romantic purposes) who is in any way cruel. There are plenty of bad plantation owners - lots of them - but the heroes are always good guys by the readers’ standards.

And there’s that movie “The Free State of Jones” which is kind of based on a true (but different) story.

But some of this is “feel good” stuff for whites to assuage their consciences.

I feel badly about what the US allowed to happen, and I believe reparations of some kind should be made, but I don’t feel guilty. And I also love the big mansions of the South (and those of France and Germany and England) and I love the big old trees and all the green lushness. I’ve been to several of the reconstructed plantations like Jefferson’s Monticello, and Jackson’s Hermitage, Montpeliar.

I visited a lot of battlefields and state capital buildings because my dad liked that. It was very hot the day we trouped around Gettysburg.

Becky

On Jul 4, 2021, at 12:03 PM, johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:

I am glad that I never read Gone with the Wind. I did not grow up in the United States, therefore, was not so exposed to all these myths. However, I read Uncle Tom's Cabin and To Kill a Mockingbird when I was young. Today, there is a lot of good literature out there...e.g. Underground Railroad by Colson Whitehead...or the novels by Toni Morrison, Alice Walker etc...As a teenager I also read James Baldwin.
When I came to the United States and went to college and then to university, I met a lot of African- Americans who told me that American history is written by white people and not correct. I was interested and read more about the history...books they recommended. Most interesting were the discussions at the university with 2 African American professors. I remember that the class was called Multicultural Dimensions in the Counseling Process.The discussions became very fierce. That was in 1989 and it was that the white students felt very much attacked, they refused to listen, many left the room, some said, that they refuse to take on the guilt, because they were not responsible what happened in the past, some even cried. I was surprised that they never dealt with their past. We Germans do it constantly and have to say that we did it because of the Americans because they held up the mirror to our face...and it came to me as a shock, that they dealt so little about their own history.
When I was in Memphis I visited Graceland and the Lorraine Motel. There was a pilgrimage going to Graceland....there were only us and a school class at the Lorraine Motel. I had the feeling, that people are not interested in this part if the history.
Oh I forgot...I read The March by Doctorov...but this was about General Sherman.
A word to the Confederate flag...it is a symbol of racism around the world. I worked with Skinheads and NeoNazis here in Germany and they used it. I made them remove it from the wall. The symbol is a strong as the swastika.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 03.07.21 15:25 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: [AllNonfiction] REL: Q3 - Intro / Chapter 1

Q3 -

• What is the Lost Cause of Confederacy myth and what is its purpose?

• Seidule uses several books and movies from his childhood to explain the Lost Cause myth. Can you think of media that informed you about race? Were they accurate?

Becky





Jenny Berman Ross
 

Sandy --

I see a lot more interracial couples now than I used to but still find in many situations that I am the only White woman with a Black man when I go places with my boyfriend. I also think it is interesting that on television and in movies it seems to be much more common to see a White man with a Black woman in a relationship than a White woman with a Black man.  

Jenny


Becky Lindroos
 

This being the US, the more interracial relationships happen and are seen with the Hollywood stars and their ilk the more the general population will emulate it. Hopefully. This is good news.

Out of 37 couples listed, 10 had white women (2008):
https://www.essence.com/news/color-love-celebs-interracial-relationships/

But Oprah and Stedman aren’t on there.


Becky

On Jul 5, 2021, at 11:32 AM, Jenny Berman Ross <jenny60060@comcast.net> wrote:

Sandy --

I see a lot more interracial couples now than I used to but still find in many situations that I am the only White woman with a Black man when I go places with my boyfriend. I also think it is interesting that on television and in movies it seems to be much more common to see a White man with a Black woman in a relationship than a White woman with a Black man.

Jenny