Date   

Re: Finally finished Underland

Merilee Olson
 

The bit about the nuclear fuel storage in Finland was a bit depressing.

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 7:51 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Oh good for you!   I enjoyed the last couple chapters or so more than the chapters before it (but not more than the first chapters).  I enjoyed reading about the north country.

Becky

> On Jul 20, 2021, at 6:37 PM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:
>
> I found that the last chapters dragged, though loved some of the English and Paris parts.
>







Re: Finally finished Underland

Becky Lindroos
 

Oh good for you! I enjoyed the last couple chapters or so more than the chapters before it (but not more than the first chapters). I enjoyed reading about the north country.

Becky

On Jul 20, 2021, at 6:37 PM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@gmail.com> wrote:

I found that the last chapters dragged, though loved some of the English and Paris parts.


Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham
 

It's managing skillfully a classroom of children from diverse backgrounds and diverse neurological capabilities which makes a good teacher such a wonder to behold and worth their weight in gold. It certainly is not a profession for the faint hearted or the ambivalently committed. I find your posts about your teaching experience extremely inspiring and it gives me great hope when I am challenged by despair.. Have you ever considered writing a book or a memoir about what you learned about yourself, children, schools, parents, communities, the world, in all your years of teaching kindergarten?

I am thinking of possible titles:

"The state of the world today from the eyes of a kindergarten teacher."
"What I learned from 5 year olds and their parents."
"Doing what I loved made me the person I am today."
"Down in the trenches where character is built."
Etc.

David Markham


On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 7:31 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Thank you.  I had a wide variety of kids (and parents) in my classes every year.  We all did/do. That’s what you get in the public schools.  It kept the job interesting.

Becky

> On Jul 20, 2021, at 5:25 PM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
>
> Very wise approach and decision!
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:40 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> I doubt any of the kids in my classes were on Ritalin - if they were I didn’t know about it.  I had some parents ask about it but my opinion was always no - not yet.  Let’s wait and see if he matures a bit or if he can learn some self-control.  (Some parents actually wanted their kids on Ritalin - one wanted it for the Social Security bennies she thought she might get but the doctor called me about that little case - lol!)
>
> Them:  “But is Junior normal?”
> Me:  “Well, normal is a broad range.”
> LOL!
>
> I would have approved the use of Ritalin if the child’s behavior was truly interfering with his being able to learn or it was so disruptive the other kids couldn’t focus.  (And doctor’s Rx, of course.)
>
> Becky
>
>
> > On Jul 19, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
> >
> > There is something to be said about treating adults like 5 year olds but I do understand the connection.  Violence seems to be connected with uncontrolled, purely emotive behavior.  It seems some people experience such an explosion of emotion that rational though is just overwhelmed.  In those cases, where a person just seems to go mad, if you will, emotion just seems to be the only factor driving decision making.  Something like this seems to take place with mob psychology were and individual's constraints are overwhelmed by the emotion of a group which.  In children however, so often it seems those kids were just put on Ritalin or some newer equivalent.
> >
> > On Monday, July 19, 2021, 08:16:23 AM EDT, David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Becky, Jeff, et al.
> >
> > Becky wrote "There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose). "
> >
> > As an experienced kindergarten teacher you have spent years, I assume, teaching 5 year olds how to share. How can those skills we used with adults in our current world?
> >
> > David Markham
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 11:31 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> > David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> > > The question is what should be done?
> > >
> > > Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
> > >
> > >       • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
> > Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.
> >
> > >       • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
> > What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.
> >
> > >       • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
> >
> > You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
> > https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
> > (And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)
> >
> > >       • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
> > Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.
> >
> > We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.
> >
> > The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).   Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?   - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)
> >
> > What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?
> >
> >  Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
> > “It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.
> >
> > >
> > > Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
> >
> > Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.
> >
> > There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).
> >
> > Becky
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Finally finished Underland

Merilee Olson
 

I found that the last chapters dragged, though loved some of the English and Paris parts.


Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

Becky Lindroos
 

Thank you. I had a wide variety of kids (and parents) in my classes every year. We all did/do. That’s what you get in the public schools. It kept the job interesting.

Becky

On Jul 20, 2021, at 5:25 PM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Very wise approach and decision!


On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:40 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I doubt any of the kids in my classes were on Ritalin - if they were I didn’t know about it. I had some parents ask about it but my opinion was always no - not yet. Let’s wait and see if he matures a bit or if he can learn some self-control. (Some parents actually wanted their kids on Ritalin - one wanted it for the Social Security bennies she thought she might get but the doctor called me about that little case - lol!)

Them: “But is Junior normal?”
Me: “Well, normal is a broad range.”
LOL!

I would have approved the use of Ritalin if the child’s behavior was truly interfering with his being able to learn or it was so disruptive the other kids couldn’t focus. (And doctor’s Rx, of course.)

Becky


On Jul 19, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

There is something to be said about treating adults like 5 year olds but I do understand the connection. Violence seems to be connected with uncontrolled, purely emotive behavior. It seems some people experience such an explosion of emotion that rational though is just overwhelmed. In those cases, where a person just seems to go mad, if you will, emotion just seems to be the only factor driving decision making. Something like this seems to take place with mob psychology were and individual's constraints are overwhelmed by the emotion of a group which. In children however, so often it seems those kids were just put on Ritalin or some newer equivalent.

On Monday, July 19, 2021, 08:16:23 AM EDT, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi Becky, Jeff, et al.

Becky wrote "There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose). "

As an experienced kindergarten teacher you have spent years, I assume, teaching 5 year olds how to share. How can those skills we used with adults in our current world?

David Markham


On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 11:31 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky












Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham
 

Very wise approach and decision!

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:40 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
I doubt any of the kids in my classes were on Ritalin - if they were I didn’t know about it.  I had some parents ask about it but my opinion was always no - not yet.  Let’s wait and see if he matures a bit or if he can learn some self-control.  (Some parents actually wanted their kids on Ritalin - one wanted it for the Social Security bennies she thought she might get but the doctor called me about that little case - lol!)

Them:  “But is Junior normal?”
Me:  “Well, normal is a broad range.”
LOL!

I would have approved the use of Ritalin if the child’s behavior was truly interfering with his being able to learn or it was so disruptive the other kids couldn’t focus.  (And doctor’s Rx, of course.)

Becky


> On Jul 19, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> There is something to be said about treating adults like 5 year olds but I do understand the connection.  Violence seems to be connected with uncontrolled, purely emotive behavior.  It seems some people experience such an explosion of emotion that rational though is just overwhelmed.  In those cases, where a person just seems to go mad, if you will, emotion just seems to be the only factor driving decision making.  Something like this seems to take place with mob psychology were and individual's constraints are overwhelmed by the emotion of a group which.  In children however, so often it seems those kids were just put on Ritalin or some newer equivalent.
>
> On Monday, July 19, 2021, 08:16:23 AM EDT, David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Becky, Jeff, et al.
>
> Becky wrote "There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose). "
>
> As an experienced kindergarten teacher you have spent years, I assume, teaching 5 year olds how to share. How can those skills we used with adults in our current world?
>
> David Markham
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 11:31 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> > The question is what should be done?
> >
> > Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”
> >
> >       • Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
> Yes - a step,  certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.
>
> >       • What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
> What do I think of the terms?  I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble.  But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas.  Use them carefully.  Consider your audience - heh.  I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.
>
> >       • How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
>
> You mean some white Southerners?  Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame.  (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.)  Do you know that many Americans object to being called white?  Why do you think that is?
> https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
> (And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)
>
> >       • Would truth commissions and reparations help?
> Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago,  that’s about 8 generations.  South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.
>
> We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? -  Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.
>
> The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well …  And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins).   Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on?   - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all,  women would like some backpay.)
>
> What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?
>
>  Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
> “It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.
>
> >
> > Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
>
> Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism?  Can we give all our obviously  racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them?  Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff.  Show Youtube videos to set the example.
>
> There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa.  I don’t think it will go away.  We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone,  someone will take offense. That’s how humans are.  At this point I think every race is complaining  - (and we all lose).
>
> Becky
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

Becky Lindroos
 

I doubt any of the kids in my classes were on Ritalin - if they were I didn’t know about it. I had some parents ask about it but my opinion was always no - not yet. Let’s wait and see if he matures a bit or if he can learn some self-control. (Some parents actually wanted their kids on Ritalin - one wanted it for the Social Security bennies she thought she might get but the doctor called me about that little case - lol!)

Them: “But is Junior normal?”
Me: “Well, normal is a broad range.”
LOL!

I would have approved the use of Ritalin if the child’s behavior was truly interfering with his being able to learn or it was so disruptive the other kids couldn’t focus. (And doctor’s Rx, of course.)

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

There is something to be said about treating adults like 5 year olds but I do understand the connection. Violence seems to be connected with uncontrolled, purely emotive behavior. It seems some people experience such an explosion of emotion that rational though is just overwhelmed. In those cases, where a person just seems to go mad, if you will, emotion just seems to be the only factor driving decision making. Something like this seems to take place with mob psychology were and individual's constraints are overwhelmed by the emotion of a group which. In children however, so often it seems those kids were just put on Ritalin or some newer equivalent.

On Monday, July 19, 2021, 08:16:23 AM EDT, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi Becky, Jeff, et al.

Becky wrote "There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose). "

As an experienced kindergarten teacher you have spent years, I assume, teaching 5 year olds how to share. How can those skills we used with adults in our current world?

David Markham


On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 11:31 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky







Re: Despair or hope?

Becky Lindroos
 

LOL!

Ya - I think the hard core Trumpies and anti-vaxxers can get sick and die. I’d hate to take their rights and freedoms. Best wishes to them - (I’ll bet I’m not the only one who thinks this.)

Becky

On Jul 20, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

So if we cannot influence evolution and if Covid is reducing Thuglicans in high percentages of the population due to their Leader opposing inoculation, then it appears he may have done a really great service to mankind. He truly is making America great again.

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, 11:59:59 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Good point, Jim. We’ve evolved to this point for reasons - usually for better survival I think probably. I don’t know if we could remove things we’ve been evolved to do. We didn’t evolve ourselves - we didn’t choose. (Lol)

We as a species might be able to choose to evolve spiritually (as David suggested) if we as a species focused on it. But the cooperation would have to be there already or the conspiracy-minded folks would get really upset.

Does free will increase if we choose hard things and do them - or are we born with a certain amount? Do we pass a spiritual attribute on to our children through the genes? I personally think yes to all those. But as long as the capitalist impulse is around I think it would get warped and/or be usurped.

Becky



On Jul 20, 2021, at 10:25 AM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@outlook.com> wrote:

I think some people are capable of being much better than the average, but I'm not sure the average will ever be uplifted to those better states. We shouldn't stop trying to evolve society but I don't have much hope. As a species, we're just not cooperative enough. Most people can cooperate if it's in their self-interest, but few people can cooperate selflessly.

Jim






Re: Despair or hope?

Jeffrey Taylor
 

So if we cannot influence evolution and if Covid is reducing Thuglicans in high percentages of the population due to their Leader opposing inoculation, then it appears he may have done a really great service to mankind.  He truly is making America great again.  

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, 11:59:59 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Good point,  Jim.  We’ve evolved to this point for reasons - usually for better survival I think probably.  I don’t know if we could remove things we’ve been evolved to do.  We didn’t evolve ourselves - we didn’t choose. (Lol) 

We as a species might be able to choose to evolve spiritually (as David suggested) if we as a species focused on it. But the cooperation would have to be there already or the conspiracy-minded folks would get really upset.

Does free will increase if we choose hard things and do them - or are we born with a certain amount? Do we pass a spiritual attribute on to our children through the genes?  I personally think yes to all those.  But as long as the capitalist impulse is around I think it would get warped and/or be usurped.

Becky



> On Jul 20, 2021, at 10:25 AM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@...> wrote:
>
> I think some people are capable of being much better than the average, but I'm not sure the average will ever be uplifted to those better states. We shouldn't stop trying to evolve society but I don't have much hope. As a species, we're just not cooperative enough. Most people can cooperate if it's in their self-interest, but few people can cooperate selflessly.
>
> Jim
>







Re: Despair or hope?

Becky Lindroos
 

Good point, Jim. We’ve evolved to this point for reasons - usually for better survival I think probably. I don’t know if we could remove things we’ve been evolved to do. We didn’t evolve ourselves - we didn’t choose. (Lol)

We as a species might be able to choose to evolve spiritually (as David suggested) if we as a species focused on it. But the cooperation would have to be there already or the conspiracy-minded folks would get really upset.

Does free will increase if we choose hard things and do them - or are we born with a certain amount? Do we pass a spiritual attribute on to our children through the genes? I personally think yes to all those. But as long as the capitalist impulse is around I think it would get warped and/or be usurped.

Becky

On Jul 20, 2021, at 10:25 AM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@outlook.com> wrote:

I think some people are capable of being much better than the average, but I'm not sure the average will ever be uplifted to those better states. We shouldn't stop trying to evolve society but I don't have much hope. As a species, we're just not cooperative enough. Most people can cooperate if it's in their self-interest, but few people can cooperate selflessly.

Jim


Re: Despair or hope?

Jim Harris
 

I think some people are capable of being much better than the average, but I'm not sure the average will ever be uplifted to those better states. We shouldn't stop trying to evolve society but I don't have much hope. As a species, we're just not cooperative enough. Most people can cooperate if it's in their self-interest, but few people can cooperate selflessly.

Jim


Re: Check out "Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal" by George Packer.

Jim Harris
 

Definitely, something I want to read.


Re: Check out "Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal" by George Packer.

Merilee Olson
 

Thanks!

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 11:13 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
It’s on -  looks good!    Thanks.

Becky

> On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:35 PM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:
>
> Check out "Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal" by George Packer.
>
> Have I already suggested this for our suggestions list?
> https://a.co/748t0pE
>







Re: Check out "Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal" by George Packer.

Becky Lindroos
 

It’s on - looks good! Thanks.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:35 PM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@gmail.com> wrote:

Check out "Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal" by George Packer.

Have I already suggested this for our suggestions list?
https://a.co/748t0pE


Check out "Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal" by George Packer.

Merilee Olson
 

Check out "Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal" by George Packer.

Have I already suggested this for our suggestions list?
https://a.co/748t0pE


Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham
 

Hi Becky et al.

Becky wrote "This is easy.  I was the dictator and I had back-up in the principal and the parents.  Sharing was a rule.  (The actual “rule” was “Be Nice to Everybody.”)

We role-played how to share.  If you want the red crayon but Johnny is using it what do you do?  -  You ask if you can have it next.  They practiced the words - they role played it.  If someone else is already next find another crayon or wait.  The kids almost always shared but …"

Worked well with 90% of the kids but there is always the 10% who are outliers for various reasons. School districts have struggled with how to manage them: mainstreaming or IEP.

The same observation can be made in the adult population. 90% of the population shares and 10% are outliers. The community must figure out how to deal with the anti-social and we have created management mechanisms, and they work with variable results. We hear and read about the failures and not enough about the successes. I have witnessed hundreds if not thousands of people turn their lives around and move from egocentric to worldcentric world views. Twelve step programs are full of them.
There also are other organizations and institutions that do this kind of work. They deserve our support.

Sandi gave a good example of what one family can do in a community.

David Markham

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 1:31 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
On Jul 19, 2021, at 7:16 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:
> As an experienced kindergarten teacher you have spent years, I assume, teaching 5 year olds how to share. How can those skills we used with adults in our current world?

This is easy.  I was the dictator and I had back-up in the principal and the parents.  Sharing was a rule.  (The actual “rule” was “Be Nice to Everybody.”)

We role-played how to share.  If you want the red crayon but Johnny is using it what do you do?  -  You ask if you can have it next.  They practiced the words - they role played it.  If someone else is already next find another crayon or wait.  The kids almost always shared but …

But even this didn’t always work - kids are different.  One day David grabbed the ball away from Victor.  Victor started screaming.  I turned around and said “What’s going on here?”  David answered me with,  “He won’t let go!”   (!!!!!). LOL!!!   But that’s honestly what David believed - he saw Victor as being the problem. That was David’s attitude.  He was like a mini-Trump.   

David had problems all the way through elementary school.  No - he did not need to be home-schooled because that would have resulted in more of the same spoiled brat last child of older parents with doting older siblings (ready to teach him their gangster ways.)  What David needed was to get used to working and playing WITH other kids.  (Sports was often helpful.)

But Victor had problems, too.  He was ODD (oppositional) - screamed and hollered and threw things if he was told “no.”  His mother had been the same way according to my principal who had been her 6th grade teacher.  When we suspended him from school one time they brought him anyway and no one (including grandparents) answered the phone at home.  The vice-principal had to mind Victor.  LOL!   That taught us not to suspend Victor is what it did.  I understand he gained some maturity by 5th or 6th grade and they split up those two boys starting in 1st grade.

Becky








Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

Sandie Kirkland
 

Well I guess it would have been scary if we had seen it happening but it happened during the night and we just saw the aftermath the next morning. I was so little it didn't really affect me and I'm not sure how my parents felt about it as they didn't discuss it with us outside of telling us what had happened.

Sandie

-----Original Message-----
From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Becky Lindroos
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:38 PM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

Yeah she was! That would be scary.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 11:13 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Sandie:

Wonderful story about your folks and yourself. You were pioneers in healing the racial divide.

I find it very inspiring and hopeful.

David Markham👍


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 10:01 AM Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@triad.rr.com> wrote:
I grew up in Virginia and we had segregated schools until I was in high school. My parents were both educators, my mother a teacher and my father a teacher, then principal then assistant superintendent. When the schools were integrated there was some low key disagreements and the racists were more vocal. We woke up one morning and a cross had been burned during the night in our yard and another time a rock was put through my father’s windshield. But integration happened and there were no real issues in the schools and those first kids were quickly brought into the social circles at school although probably not outside of school.



My mother befriended one of the first black women teachers and there was some talk from her friends that she was making a big mistake. She just carried on with the friendship. Again, as Becky has mentioned, there is plenty of racism in almost every area; the discriminated group may vary by location but racism is alive and well.



Sandie



From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 12:52 AM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.



Among those involved with the backlash there is the issue of defining racism. What counts as racist?



I haven't lynched anyone lately. I haven't chained a black body to my truck bumper and driven it around town to to fell apart. I'm not racist.



I live in a community with one black family. I like them and talk to them. I'm not racist.



On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:31:20 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:





David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
<~WRD0000.jpg>https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky









Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

Becky Lindroos
 

Interesting. Sports is like a dictatorship and a democracy both at the same time. A good mix mostly. The fans can be kicked out. The players can be penalized or banned. The group (as a whole) has to agree on rules which are enforceable. Teams and nations can participate or not -

But still, there will always be disputes - so we will always need tolerance.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 12:22 PM, johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:

Sports is very important because you can reach so many people with it.
Last week the German Olympic soccer team left the game because a black German player was constantly being insulted by a player from the team of Honduras.
Afterwards they said that is was a misunderstanding....a cheap excuse....but they had to apologize to the German team.
We had the European soccer cup and the teams knelt down to give a sign against racism. Something has to be done...fans are so terrible. Also in this cup it happened...as I remember it were the English fans...that they made monkey noises when a black player had the ball. I hope that the FIFA does something against these fans. They should be banned from the stadium.

P.s. the word black is correct here in Germany as the people of Africa gave themselves the name first. The Afro-Americans have a different history than black people in Europe. We don't use Afro- European.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 19.07.21 18:52 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

Yes, Johanna! Please share about Europe! A lot is due to Colonization and neither the US nor Germany were very much involved in that - not by that name anyway. We did our own version of imperialism.

Using Rugby as a way to unify is great! Any sport will do except that baseball and football haven’t worked out perfectly in the US. Blacks weren’t allowed to play - they weren’t even allowed to watch the pro-teams play when Jackie Robinson started playing.

In fact, that just exemplifies what I was saying. We can get so far in our efforts at removing racism but there will always be a hold-out at some point and it will trigger at least some dissatisfaction and that will become the focus.

Just like today - I see where the Coronavirus vaccine has continued to work and the numbers have fallen very nicely. But where the vaccine has not been used, where there’s fear or anger or whatever kind of reluctance and refusal the disease has surged. What’s the focus on the media? The surge.

If we got rid of racism to the extent we’ve got rid of the vulnerability to Covid there *should be* joy in the streets. The racist pockets and/or individuals continuing racist behavior would be found out, complained about, and become the focus. Also there might well be some incidents of accusations without foundation - that would be a real set-back. (And pretty much can’t happen with Covid.)

There is not enough money, self-discipline, or negative consequences to change ourselves with racism. It’s possible that at some point the Covid will be gone (like TB or smallpox). But until we at least have a good reliable measure of what racism is and what it is not, that never will be the case. We can barely define it or call it when we see it. Racism changes its attributes and it rears its ugly head again. (Like not using the N- word didn’t eliminate racism - it just ducked under another word. (The word Black can be said just as ugly as you want.) And Huck Finn is banned from schools because somehow people get the idea that it’s the word itself which is racist.

First: A racist has to see it in himself
Second: A racist has to WANT TO change.

Good luck.

But, David, keep asking the idealistic questions because otherwise no one might ever ask them.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 9:02 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi JoAnna:

I like your sharing the information about Europe. We can learn a lot from each other about how to improve our interactions with each other so they are more just, equitable, and compassionate.

Please continue to share your observations and ideas. I learned a lot from the movie Invictus about Nelson Mandela's attempt to unify South Africa through the use of rugby.

David Markham


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 9:56 AM johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:
We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.

I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky














Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

Becky Lindroos
 

Sports again? I’m going to have to look into this - be more appreciative or something. I like baseball. Football is okay. I see women on the basketball courts and tennis.

Let’s all get out there and watch TV for the Olympics. - Opening ceremony is 7 AM (EST) on Friday July 23 - many stations including NBC. See all the different nations and flags and colors of skin and uniforms. Yay!

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Maybe not, in the case of South Africa. The course I took on South African history it seems early colonial history saw a drastic split between the British and the
Dutch. When England took over the colony the Dutch trekked outside the colony across the Val river to get away from them. The Transvaal were first to develop a form of apartheid which was more militant than the British version. Eventually, after gold was found in the Val region, the Dutch were re-absorbed into the colony. According to some contemporary historians it was through national sports organizations that the two learned how to accommodate with each other, leading to a compromise policy where in a uniform apartheid policy was put in place when the new National Party united the two groups to come to power in 1948.

In that view rugby was involved in both the creation of a national apartheid policy and with its destruction.

On Monday, July 19, 2021, 12:52:21 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Yes, Johanna! Please share about Europe! A lot is due to Colonization and neither the US nor Germany were very much involved in that - not by that name anyway. We did our own version of imperialism.

Using Rugby as a way to unify is great! Any sport will do except that baseball and football haven’t worked out perfectly in the US. Blacks weren’t allowed to play - they weren’t even allowed to watch the pro-teams play when Jackie Robinson started playing.

In fact, that just exemplifies what I was saying. We can get so far in our efforts at removing racism but there will always be a hold-out at some point and it will trigger at least some dissatisfaction and that will become the focus.

Just like today - I see where the Coronavirus vaccine has continued to work and the numbers have fallen very nicely. But where the vaccine has not been used, where there’s fear or anger or whatever kind of reluctance and refusal the disease has surged. What’s the focus on the media? The surge.

If we got rid of racism to the extent we’ve got rid of the vulnerability to Covid there *should be* joy in the streets. The racist pockets and/or individuals continuing racist behavior would be found out, complained about, and become the focus. Also there might well be some incidents of accusations without foundation - that would be a real set-back. (And pretty much can’t happen with Covid.)

There is not enough money, self-discipline, or negative consequences to change ourselves with racism. It’s possible that at some point the Covid will be gone (like TB or smallpox). But until we at least have a good reliable measure of what racism is and what it is not, that never will be the case. We can barely define it or call it when we see it. Racism changes its attributes and it rears its ugly head again. (Like not using the N- word didn’t eliminate racism - it just ducked under another word. (The word Black can be said just as ugly as you want.) And Huck Finn is banned from schools because somehow people get the idea that it’s the word itself which is racist.

First: A racist has to see it in himself
Second: A racist has to WANT TO change.

Good luck.

But, David, keep asking the idealistic questions because otherwise no one might ever ask them.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 9:02 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi JoAnna:

I like your sharing the information about Europe. We can learn a lot from each other about how to improve our interactions with each other so they are more just, equitable, and compassionate.

Please continue to share your observations and ideas. I learned a lot from the movie Invictus about Nelson Mandela's attempt to unify South Africa through the use of rugby.

David Markham


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 9:56 AM johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:
We should not forget that there is also racism against white people. I have experienced this in Africa, my friend also told me about racism she experienced in Indonisia. I think that racism is so evil, if a group in power executes it towards a minority who cannot defend itself. Considering colonialisation, it is apparent that racism on a large scale was executed by people of European decent in Africa, Asia and America. . But another example is Ruanda with the Hutus and Tutsis. Becky, you mentioned South Aftica...there is racism on all sides...also the people of Indian decent and vice versa.
Germany was never a big colonizers but had some colonies in Africa like Namibia. The Germans were responsible of the many deaths of the Hereras and Namas. A couple of months ago, after 100 years, finally the German government acknowledged the cruelty towards these people. They acknowledged it as a genocide and is now paying reparations of 1.1 billion for restoration. I think this is the right step and a lot of other nation should do that too.

I don't know whether anybody is interested in my remarks referring to Europe, especially Germany. If not, I can restrain myself.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 19.07.21 05:31 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.

David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky














Re: The segregated south was a racial police state.

Becky Lindroos
 

Yeah she was! That would be scary.

Becky

On Jul 19, 2021, at 11:13 AM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:

Sandie:

Wonderful story about your folks and yourself. You were pioneers in healing the racial divide.

I find it very inspiring and hopeful.

David Markham👍


On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 10:01 AM Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@triad.rr.com> wrote:
I grew up in Virginia and we had segregated schools until I was in high school. My parents were both educators, my mother a teacher and my father a teacher, then principal then assistant superintendent. When the schools were integrated there was some low key disagreements and the racists were more vocal. We woke up one morning and a cross had been burned during the night in our yard and another time a rock was put through my father’s windshield. But integration happened and there were no real issues in the schools and those first kids were quickly brought into the social circles at school although probably not outside of school.



My mother befriended one of the first black women teachers and there was some talk from her friends that she was making a big mistake. She just carried on with the friendship. Again, as Becky has mentioned, there is plenty of racism in almost every area; the discriminated group may vary by location but racism is alive and well.



Sandie



From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 12:52 AM
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] The segregated south was a racial police state.



Among those involved with the backlash there is the issue of defining racism. What counts as racist?



I haven't lynched anyone lately. I haven't chained a black body to my truck bumper and driven it around town to to fell apart. I'm not racist.



I live in a community with one black family. I like them and talk to them. I'm not racist.



On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:31:20 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:





David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
The question is what should be done?

Seidule writes that the first step is to dispel the myth of the lost cause and get real about our racist past by labeling things appropriately and stopping the so-called “dog whistles.”

• Is Seidule’s book a step in the right direction labeling historical events more accurately?
Yes - a step, certainly not a solution and it’s only a step if people read it and take note with a positive attitude.

• What do you think of his use of the terms “slave labor farms” and “racial police state” and southern soldiers especially officers as “traitors?”
What do I think of the terms? I think they can be highly inflammatory in some places (like Missouri or ND) and there could be some trouble. But the folks in East St Louis might appreciate the words and ideas. Use them carefully. Consider your audience - heh. I think Seidule knows who’s reading him.

• How can we help Southerners who deny reality with the lost cause myth to redeem their souls so that genuine healing can take place?
You mean some white Southerners? Maybe emphasize the antebellum days were more than 150 years ago and present company is excluded from the direct blame. (Many white people take offense you know - they think you are actively blaming their white skin for the horrific tragedies of the past.) Do you know that many Americans object to being called white? Why do you think that is?
<~WRD0000.jpg>https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/26/17613844/racial-diversity-poll-twitter-white-people
(And scroll a wee bit to get rid of the ad)

• Would truth commissions and reparations help?
Maybe a wee bit, but the Civil War was 150 years ago, that’s about 8 generations. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission was started in 1995 and that was very shortly after an election which changed the government.

We had to have a frightful war and then “reconstruction” and then Jim Crow laws (the apartheid part) and then ??? - Yes, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was successful (pretty much) but I don’t know how that kind of deal would work here.

The other problem we have here is that many whites in the same regional areas are also very poor and uneducated so if Blacks get something they don’t get, well … And then there are the Natives - (what do you think we owe them?) and the Mexicans (who also used to own California etc.) and then there are the Asians and Arabs and Jews (browner skins). Meanwhile, is this fair to the Blacks (etc.) who have “made it” to the law firms and doctor offices and suburbia and so on? - (Oh and btw, while we’re being capitalist about it all, women would like some backpay.)

What would the Supreme Court say re the "equal protection" clause if whites don’t get the goodies?

Biden tried to give women- and minority-owned businesses some extra Covid monies. That was shot down pretty quick and the guy who sued got his extra money, too.
“It is indeed a sordid business to divide us up by race.” - said the judge in the appeals court.


Let's not forget George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Daniel Prude, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, etc., etc., etc.
Of course not but how will more laws change attitudes and racism? Can we give all our obviously racist mf'ers a fair trial, take them behind the barn and hang them? Then burn a cross in … no - that’s old stuff. Show Youtube videos to set the example.

There’s still racism and associated violence in South Africa. I don’t think it will go away. We’ll see less and less of it but as long as there is one tiny bit anywhere, against anyone, someone will take offense. That’s how humans are. At this point I think every race is complaining - (and we all lose).

Becky








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