Date   

REL - Q2

Becky Lindroos
 

Q2. The author argues that history is dangerous. What does he mean?

Introduction - pg 3
The historian David Blight wrote that the Civil War is like “the giant sleeping dragon of American history ever ready to rise up when we do not expect it and strike us with unbearable fire.”1 I poked the Civil War beast, and it singed me. History is dangerous. It forms our identity, our shared story. If someone challenges a sacred myth, the reaction can be ferocious.”

1- The Civil War Lies on Us Like a Sleeping Dragon: America’s Deadly Divide - and Why It Has Returned,” Guardian, AUg. 20, 2017, www.the-guardian.com/us-news/2017aug/20 /civil-war-american-history-trump

Becky


Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Becky Lindroos
 

That must have been quite a change for him when Biden replaced Trump - heh. Thinking about the military that way it might be really hard for me to enlist.

Becky

On Jul 2, 2021, at 12:14 AM, Michele via groups.io <missshellbelle=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I had a friend who was in the Navy. Commissioned officer. We've lost touch. He was very clear that he believed his duty was to believe and support the views of the president et al., because he represented his country and thus had no right to have a personal point of view.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io>
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 9:53 pm
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

This is where things get messy. The ranking officer corps may be of one mind but the rank and file of the military may not achieve consensus. Your reference to "points of view" must be applied within the military also.

On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 11:26:43 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


It’s excellent, Michele. I’d read about the race issue from various points of view but never from within the military or with the military perspective on it’s own history.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Michele via groups.io <missshellbelle=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Interesting conversation, guys! I didn't buy the book, but now I'm rethinking that....

Michele


-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 5:20 pm
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Oh - it’s perfect.

And I’ve been thinking more about Caste, too. That book by Isabel Wilkerson.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@outlook.com> wrote:

I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.

Jim











Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Becky Lindroos
 

That’s totally true! Not everyone agrees with Milley and Seidule gets death threats.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 11:53 PM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

This is where things get messy. The ranking officer corps may be of one mind but the rank and file of the military may not achieve consensus. Your reference to "points of view" must be applied within the military also.

On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 11:26:43 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


It’s excellent, Michele. I’d read about the race issue from various points of view but never from within the military or with the military perspective on it’s own history.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Michele via groups.io <missshellbelle=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Interesting conversation, guys! I didn't buy the book, but now I'm rethinking that....

Michele


-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 5:20 pm
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Oh - it’s perfect.

And I’ve been thinking more about Caste, too. That book by Isabel Wilkerson.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@outlook.com> wrote:

I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.

Jim











Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Michele
 

I had a friend who was in the Navy. Commissioned officer. We've lost touch.  He was very clear that he believed his duty was to believe and support the views of the president et al., because he represented his country and thus had no right to have a personal point of view.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97@...>
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 9:53 pm
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

This is where things get messy.  The ranking officer corps may be of one mind but the rank and file of the military may not achieve consensus.  Your reference to "points of view" must be applied within the military also.

On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 11:26:43 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


It’s excellent, Michele.  I’d read about the race issue from various points of view but never from within the military or with the military perspective on it’s own history.

Becky

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Michele via groups.io <missshellbelle=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Interesting conversation, guys! I didn't buy the book, but now I'm rethinking that....
>
> Michele
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
> To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
> Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 5:20 pm
> Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open
>
> Oh - it’s perfect.
>
> And I’ve been thinking more about Caste, too.  That book by Isabel Wilkerson.
>
> Becky
>
> > On Jul 1, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@...> wrote:
> >
> > I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Jeffrey Taylor
 

This is where things get messy.  The ranking officer corps may be of one mind but the rank and file of the military may not achieve consensus.  Your reference to "points of view" must be applied within the military also.

On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 11:26:43 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


It’s excellent, Michele.  I’d read about the race issue from various points of view but never from within the military or with the military perspective on it’s own history.

Becky

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Michele via groups.io <missshellbelle=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Interesting conversation, guys! I didn't buy the book, but now I'm rethinking that....
>
> Michele
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
> To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
> Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 5:20 pm
> Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open
>
> Oh - it’s perfect.
>
> And I’ve been thinking more about Caste, too.  That book by Isabel Wilkerson.
>
> Becky
>
> > On Jul 1, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@...> wrote:
> >
> > I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Re: What Marxism, 'Critical Race Theory,' and Tucker Carlson Share - The Atlantic

Merilee Olson
 

She’s also often on Fareed and A
manpour (I think). She lives in Poland now.  Married a Polish guy.

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 11:30 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Yes!!!   That’s why I subscribe to The Atlantic and I should definitely read more of Anne Applebaum.

“Democracy is messy, and it’s hard. It’s never easy.”  Robert Kennedy Jr.

Becky

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 8:35 PM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:
>
> Speaking of CRT…
>
> ---------- Forwarded message --------
> Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:17 AM
> Subject: What Marxism, 'Critical Race Theory,' and Tucker Carlson Share - The Atlantic
> To: Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...>
>
>
> Finally a balanced article on this subject.
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/milley-critical-race-theory-marxism-racism-fox-news/619308/
>
>
>







Re: What Marxism, 'Critical Race Theory,' and Tucker Carlson Share - The Atlantic

Becky Lindroos
 

Yes!!! That’s why I subscribe to The Atlantic and I should definitely read more of Anne Applebaum.

“Democracy is messy, and it’s hard. It’s never easy.” Robert Kennedy Jr.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 8:35 PM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@gmail.com> wrote:

Speaking of CRT…

---------- Forwarded message --------
Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:17 AM
Subject: What Marxism, 'Critical Race Theory,' and Tucker Carlson Share - The Atlantic
To: Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@gmail.com>


Finally a balanced article on this subject.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/milley-critical-race-theory-marxism-racism-fox-news/619308/



Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Michele
 

Thanks Bek! Dangit! Now I'm gonna have to buy it, I think!


-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 8:26 pm
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

It’s excellent, Michele.  I’d read about the race issue from various points of view but never from within the military or with the military perspective on it’s own history.

Becky

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Michele via groups.io <missshellbelle=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Interesting conversation, guys! I didn't buy the book, but now I'm rethinking that....
>
> Michele
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
> To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
> Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 5:20 pm
> Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open
>
> Oh - it’s perfect.
>
> And I’ve been thinking more about Caste, too.  That book by Isabel Wilkerson.
>
> Becky
>
> > On Jul 1, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@...> wrote:
> >
> > I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Becky Lindroos
 

It’s excellent, Michele. I’d read about the race issue from various points of view but never from within the military or with the military perspective on it’s own history.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Michele via groups.io <missshellbelle=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Interesting conversation, guys! I didn't buy the book, but now I'm rethinking that....

Michele


-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 5:20 pm
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Oh - it’s perfect.

And I’ve been thinking more about Caste, too. That book by Isabel Wilkerson.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@outlook.com> wrote:

I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.

Jim






What Marxism, 'Critical Race Theory,' and Tucker Carlson Share - The Atlantic

Merilee Olson
 

Speaking of CRT…

---------- Forwarded message --------
Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 10:17 AM
Subject: What Marxism, 'Critical Race Theory,' and Tucker Carlson Share - The Atlantic
To: Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...>


Finally a balanced article on this subject.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/milley-critical-race-theory-marxism-racism-fox-news/619308/



Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Michele
 

Interesting conversation, guys! I didn't buy the book, but now I'm rethinking that....

Michele


-----Original Message-----
From: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
To: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2021 5:20 pm
Subject: Re: [AllNonfiction] Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Oh - it’s perfect.

And I’ve been thinking more about Caste, too.  That book by Isabel Wilkerson.

Becky

> On Jul 1, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@...> wrote:
>
> I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.
>
> Jim
>







Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Becky Lindroos
 

Oh - it’s perfect.

And I’ve been thinking more about Caste, too. That book by Isabel Wilkerson.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 6:22 PM, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@outlook.com> wrote:

I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.

Jim


Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Jim Harris
 

I think the book also fits in with the teaching of critical race theory, or more precisely, helps explain why conservatives are doing everything they can to stop CRT.

Jim


Re: REL - Q1

Becky Lindroos
 

Because of my strong feelings about my own heritage I can understand the loyalty many Southerners have for the Confederates, many of whom may have been relatives and ancestors. And then you grow up hearing about their bravery and honor and ultimate loss I suppose you go into denial about what else went on or the down side of it all.

And in school I only had Civil war stuff taught in US history. Minnesota and World history didn’t include much about the Civil War. More important was the massacre/slaughter of several dozen Natives in Mankato in 1862.

"Thirty-eight Dakota men hanged from a Mankato gallows in December 1862. Their deaths scarred generations of native people and cemented Minnesota as home to the largest mass execution in U.S. history.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 3:27 PM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I grew up on Long Island, MY. We moved south when my father bought a Motel on Rt. 17 in Virginia. Just behind the property was undeveloped land that still contained vestiges of trenches hastily dug by the Army of Northern Virginia during the early days of the Peninsula Campaign. At least that was what we kids thought.

During our first visit to the area we went to Jamestown Island. The visitor center had bathrooms and fountains (on federal property jointly owned with a privately owned VA preservation society) all labeled white and black. I was walking towards the bathrooms and saw the signs and stopped cold. At that moment a park ranger came along and put his arm around my shoulder and said as I remember, "You don't want to go in there." I was young enough to still respond to authority so I did as told, much to my later regret. This was circa 1962 when I was 11. But this little event was my benign image of government and segregation but told me all I needed to know before I even learned about lynch law and KKK's.

On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 10:03:48 AM EDT, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@outlook.com> wrote:


I did not nominate the book, but when I read the reviews of the nominated book I knew I wanted to read Robert E. Lee and Me. It is the perfect book for the moment. I think it illuminates the backlash on critical race theory. Republicans are trying to preserve the history written by the Lost Cause movement, which was developed over the last century. Critical race theory will erase all of it, and I'm for that.

I was born in Ohio, and lived in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, but spent most of my life in the south. As kids, we'd play civil war and I was always a Yankee because I was born in Ohio. I've always identified with the North regarding the civil war. Unlike Ty Seidale, even though I lived in the south, I never admired the Confederacy or the Old South. I grew up mainly in Miami, which isn't very Southern. However, I've lived in Memphis since 1971, so I'm used to knowing people Seidale describes.


Re: Becky's June Reads

johannakurz
 

Thank you Becky, I will look into it and see whether I can get the film....yes, and I also watch a lot of films from Lars von Trier too.

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
Datum: 01.07.21 23:16 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] Becky's June Reads

I enjoy Scandic-thriller stuff and Miss Smilla’s Sense of Snow is wonderful.  (The Danish title is "Smilla’s *Feeling* for Snow,” but that didn’t work too well.)  And Adler-Olso is great and I’ve read all of that series about the Lost Causes.  Super characters.  I don’t think I’ve read any of the others except for Blixen and Anderson.

You could also go see Babette's Feast which I dearly love.  :-)  That was set in Denmark and won an Oscar for best Foreign Language film (198?)

Becky



> On Jul 1, 2021, at 1:37 PM, johannakurz <johannakurz@...> wrote:
>
> In preperation of my Denmark trip in August and September with my face to face literature group, I am reading a lot books by Danish writers. I started last month with thrillers by Adler- Olsen, this month with thrillers by Karen Vad Brunn and Benni Bodker, who are actually a couple. I pulled out writings from Sören Kiergegaard, also a thriller by Peter Hoeg... Miss Smillas Gespuer fuer Schnee...don't know the Englush title right now. Then I read short stories by Blixen, fairy tales by Anderson...I also will read his autobiography and some travel books.and last but not least...for July, I will read short stories and novels by the 1917 Literature Nobel prize winners Pontoppidan and Giellerup..
> In between I read Underland and Immanuel Kant...und?
>
> Johanna
>
>
>
> Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
> Datum: 01.07.21 19:33 (GMT+01:00)
> An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
> Betreff: [AllNonfiction] Becky's June Reads
>
> I had a pretty good month - 14 books read with 7 crime novels and 1 sci-fi, 2 general fiction, and 4 nonfiction. There were 4 women authors and 1 was a translation from Finnish.
>
> CRIME (Sci-fi):
> The Man Who Died
> by Antti Tuomainen (Finnish)
> Rating:  8/A-:  comic literary crime
> Crazy mystery dealing with "who is trying to kill the Jaako Kaunismaa, the 1st person narrator?”
> *****
>
> A Gentleman’s Murder
> by Christopher Huang
> Rating:  B+ / historical mystery
> Old fashioned who-done-it but too many characters and a lot of stuff happening.
> *****
>
> The Mysterious Affair at Styles
> by Agatha Christie
> 1916 / (2021)
> Rating:  B+ / puzzler classic
> It held up quite well so it was fun. Part of it was the June Challenge - there was some legal drama in there.
>
> *****
>
> When These Mountains Burn
> by David Joy –
> 2020
> Rating: 9.5 /A+ : literary crime
> Powerful story of drugs and change in western North Carolina -
> *****
>
> The Last
> by Hanna Jameson
> 2019
> Rating: C; dystopian crime
> This is kind of typical dystopian fiction except that there is murder in the Swiss hotel which is isolated after world nuclear devastation.
> *****
>
> Some Choose Darkness
> By Charlie Doniea
> Rating B+ / crime-procedural
> Cold case serial killer brings a “sensitive" policewoman (who is also an attorney) to reconstruct the case.
> *****
>
> When She Was Helen
> by Caroline B. Cooney
> 2021 /
> Rating: A / crime
> A retirement community has a somewhat mysterious resident so Clemmie goes to check on him and he’s more than “somewhat” mysterious - he’s creepy.  This seems light but there are twists into being a more thriller type book.
> *****
>
> Project Hail Mary
> by Andy Weir – 2021
> Read by Ray Porter – 16h 10m
> Rating: A+ / Sci-Fi
> Sci-fi without space drama (interstellar warfare). It’s at least as good as The Martian - Lots of science for dummies (like me).  A very good book - very.
> *****
>
> GENERAL FICTION:
> Tyll by Daniel Kehlmann
> 2017 – 344 pages
> Translation by Ross Benjamin 2020
> Read by Firdus Bamji – 11h 57m
> Rating – 8.5 / historical fiction
> Tyll is a folklorish character who comes alive in this novel of the Late Middle Ages 16th century Germany. There’s a strand of magical realism going through it.
> *****
>
> Antiquities
> by Cynthia Ozick
> Rating:  9.5 (a novella)
> / historical fiction
> Beautiful but a bit strange.  In 1949, 7 old men are leaving their posts as trustees of a boys’ school which was closed in 1915. These 7 are supposed to write memoirs of their days at the school,  but we only get the one - it’s 87 pages long. That generation had different ideas about some hot issues today.
> *****
>
> NONFICTION:
> Letters to Camondo
> By Edmund de Waal
> Rating – 9.25 / art history
> (Both read and listened)
> Edmund de Waal, the author of The Hare with the Amber Eyes, is also the 1st person narrator of this wonderful book which is somewhere between fiction and nonfiction history with a bit of memoir stuck in.  I’d personally call it art history because the only make-believe thing about it is that de Waal is writing letters to Moise Camondo who died in Paris in 1935.  But he never gets any kind of response physically or emotionally or mentally or occult.  So de Waal is the author who presents us a lot of information which is nicely footnoted and we’re given a bibliography of sorts.
> If you happen to buy this get the Kindle or print edition because there are gorgeous photographs of the Camondo mansion which Moise turned into a museum in honor of his son and gave to France when Moise died.
> *****
>
> Robert E Lee and Me:
> A Southerner’s Reckoning with the Myth of the Lost Cause
> By Ty Seidule
> Rating – 10 / history / memoir
> (both read and listened)
> Ty Seidule is the history chair at West Point.  He was raised in the South which mythologized Robert E. Lee. During Seidule's tenure at West Point he got tired of honoring what he calls a traitor to the US and spoke his mind then wrote a book and made a video. It’s excellent and not what historians usually do.
> *****
>
> The Craft: How Freemason’s Made the Modern World
> By John Dickie
> 2020 / 490 pages
> Rating: 9.75 / history
> (Both read and listened)
> Interesting study of the Freemasons from Scotland and France and England to nowadays all over the world, but dying out.  There’s a lot of misinformation about them as well as scandals and propaganda. Dickie’s account seems pretty well balanced.
> *****
>
> Underland: A Deep Time Journey x2
> By Robert Macfarlane
> Read by Matthew Waterson 12h 3m
> Rating: 8.75 - geology /travelogue
> (Both read and listened)
>
> Macfarlane studies and meditates on what all is under our feet.  He goes to places like the Epping Forest in England and the Paris tunnels and there’s Slovenia and  north to what’s under Norway and Greenland.
> *******
>
> Becky
>
>
>
>
>







Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Becky Lindroos
 

It really does add so much to that discussion - it adds the history! Thank you for nominating it.

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 2:57 PM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I nominated the book after seeing the discussion between Seidule and David Petraeus on C-Span. That sold me on the work. It adds significant perspective to all the discussions regarding naming changes and monument removals that are currently prominent in the South today.

On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 07:46:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Hi folks,

Today we begin our discussion of "Robert E. Lee and Me: A Southerner’s Reckoning” by Ty Seidule (2021). I hope you’ve all had time to get it and maybe start it if not finished it.

As usual, there are rarely spoilers in non-fiction, so post as you will. If you are sensitive about spoilers you might consider finishing the book prior to reading the messages. I'll be posting optional questions every other day or so for about 15 days. If you have a question or any kind of point you'd like to make about the book feel free to post any time.

From Macmillan: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250239266
In a forceful but humane narrative, former soldier and head of the West Point history department Ty Seidule's Robert E. Lee and Me challenges the myths and lies of the Confederate legacy—and explores why some of this country’s oldest wounds have never healed.

Ty Seidule grew up revering Robert E. Lee. From his southern childhood to his service in the U.S. Army, every part of his life reinforced the Lost Cause myth: that Lee was the greatest man who ever lived, and that the Confederates were underdogs who lost the Civil War with honor. Now, as a retired brigadier general and Professor Emeritus of History at West Point, his view has radically changed. From a soldier, a scholar, and a southerner, Ty Seidule believes that American history demands a reckoning.

In a unique blend of history and reflection, Seidule deconstructs the truth about the Confederacy—that its undisputed primary goal was the subjugation and enslavement of Black Americans—and directly challenges the idea of honoring those who labored to preserve that system and committed treason in their failed attempt to achieve it. Through the arc of Seidule’s own life, as well as the culture that formed him, he seeks a path to understanding why the facts of the Civil War have remained buried beneath layers of myth and even outright lies—and how they embody a cultural gulf that separates millions of Americans to this day.

Part history lecture, part meditation on the Civil War and its fallout, and part memoir, Robert E. Lee and Me challenges the deeply-held legends and myths of the Confederacy—and provides a surprising interpretation of essential truths that our country still has a difficult time articulating and accepting.

*****
Becky





Re: Becky's June Reads

Becky Lindroos
 

I enjoy Scandic-thriller stuff and Miss Smilla’s Sense of Snow is wonderful. (The Danish title is "Smilla’s *Feeling* for Snow,” but that didn’t work too well.) And Adler-Olso is great and I’ve read all of that series about the Lost Causes. Super characters. I don’t think I’ve read any of the others except for Blixen and Anderson.

You could also go see Babette's Feast which I dearly love. :-) That was set in Denmark and won an Oscar for best Foreign Language film (198?)

Becky

On Jul 1, 2021, at 1:37 PM, johannakurz <johannakurz@t-online.de> wrote:

In preperation of my Denmark trip in August and September with my face to face literature group, I am reading a lot books by Danish writers. I started last month with thrillers by Adler- Olsen, this month with thrillers by Karen Vad Brunn and Benni Bodker, who are actually a couple. I pulled out writings from Sören Kiergegaard, also a thriller by Peter Hoeg... Miss Smillas Gespuer fuer Schnee...don't know the Englush title right now. Then I read short stories by Blixen, fairy tales by Anderson...I also will read his autobiography and some travel books.and last but not least...for July, I will read short stories and novels by the 1917 Literature Nobel prize winners Pontoppidan and Giellerup..
In between I read Underland and Immanuel Kant...und?

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net>
Datum: 01.07.21 19:33 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: [AllNonfiction] Becky's June Reads

I had a pretty good month - 14 books read with 7 crime novels and 1 sci-fi, 2 general fiction, and 4 nonfiction. There were 4 women authors and 1 was a translation from Finnish.

CRIME (Sci-fi):
The Man Who Died
by Antti Tuomainen (Finnish)
Rating: 8/A-: comic literary crime
Crazy mystery dealing with "who is trying to kill the Jaako Kaunismaa, the 1st person narrator?”
*****

A Gentleman’s Murder
by Christopher Huang
Rating: B+ / historical mystery
Old fashioned who-done-it but too many characters and a lot of stuff happening.
*****

The Mysterious Affair at Styles
by Agatha Christie
1916 / (2021)
Rating: B+ / puzzler classic
It held up quite well so it was fun. Part of it was the June Challenge - there was some legal drama in there.

*****

When These Mountains Burn
by David Joy –
2020
Rating: 9.5 /A+ : literary crime
Powerful story of drugs and change in western North Carolina -
*****

The Last
by Hanna Jameson
2019
Rating: C; dystopian crime
This is kind of typical dystopian fiction except that there is murder in the Swiss hotel which is isolated after world nuclear devastation.
*****

Some Choose Darkness
By Charlie Doniea
Rating B+ / crime-procedural
Cold case serial killer brings a “sensitive" policewoman (who is also an attorney) to reconstruct the case.
*****

When She Was Helen
by Caroline B. Cooney
2021 /
Rating: A / crime
A retirement community has a somewhat mysterious resident so Clemmie goes to check on him and he’s more than “somewhat” mysterious - he’s creepy. This seems light but there are twists into being a more thriller type book.
*****

Project Hail Mary
by Andy Weir – 2021
Read by Ray Porter – 16h 10m
Rating: A+ / Sci-Fi
Sci-fi without space drama (interstellar warfare). It’s at least as good as The Martian - Lots of science for dummies (like me). A very good book - very.
*****

GENERAL FICTION:
Tyll by Daniel Kehlmann
2017 – 344 pages
Translation by Ross Benjamin 2020
Read by Firdus Bamji – 11h 57m
Rating – 8.5 / historical fiction
Tyll is a folklorish character who comes alive in this novel of the Late Middle Ages 16th century Germany. There’s a strand of magical realism going through it.
*****

Antiquities
by Cynthia Ozick
Rating: 9.5 (a novella)
/ historical fiction
Beautiful but a bit strange. In 1949, 7 old men are leaving their posts as trustees of a boys’ school which was closed in 1915. These 7 are supposed to write memoirs of their days at the school, but we only get the one - it’s 87 pages long. That generation had different ideas about some hot issues today.
*****

NONFICTION:
Letters to Camondo
By Edmund de Waal
Rating – 9.25 / art history
(Both read and listened)
Edmund de Waal, the author of The Hare with the Amber Eyes, is also the 1st person narrator of this wonderful book which is somewhere between fiction and nonfiction history with a bit of memoir stuck in. I’d personally call it art history because the only make-believe thing about it is that de Waal is writing letters to Moise Camondo who died in Paris in 1935. But he never gets any kind of response physically or emotionally or mentally or occult. So de Waal is the author who presents us a lot of information which is nicely footnoted and we’re given a bibliography of sorts.
If you happen to buy this get the Kindle or print edition because there are gorgeous photographs of the Camondo mansion which Moise turned into a museum in honor of his son and gave to France when Moise died.
*****

Robert E Lee and Me:
A Southerner’s Reckoning with the Myth of the Lost Cause
By Ty Seidule
Rating – 10 / history / memoir
(both read and listened)
Ty Seidule is the history chair at West Point. He was raised in the South which mythologized Robert E. Lee. During Seidule's tenure at West Point he got tired of honoring what he calls a traitor to the US and spoke his mind then wrote a book and made a video. It’s excellent and not what historians usually do.
*****

The Craft: How Freemason’s Made the Modern World
By John Dickie
2020 / 490 pages
Rating: 9.75 / history
(Both read and listened)
Interesting study of the Freemasons from Scotland and France and England to nowadays all over the world, but dying out. There’s a lot of misinformation about them as well as scandals and propaganda. Dickie’s account seems pretty well balanced.
*****

Underland: A Deep Time Journey x2
By Robert Macfarlane
Read by Matthew Waterson 12h 3m
Rating: 8.75 - geology /travelogue
(Both read and listened)

Macfarlane studies and meditates on what all is under our feet. He goes to places like the Epping Forest in England and the Paris tunnels and there’s Slovenia and north to what’s under Norway and Greenland.
*******

Becky





Re: REL - Q1

Jeffrey Taylor
 

I grew up on Long Island, MY.  We moved south when my father bought a Motel on Rt. 17 in Virginia.  Just behind the property was undeveloped land that still contained vestiges of trenches hastily dug by the Army of Northern Virginia during the early days of the Peninsula Campaign.  At least that was what we kids thought.  

During our first visit to the area we went to Jamestown Island.  The visitor center had bathrooms and fountains (on federal property jointly owned with a privately owned VA preservation society) all labeled white and black.  I was walking towards the bathrooms and saw the signs and stopped cold.  At that moment a park ranger came along and put his arm around my shoulder and said as I remember, "You don't want to go in there."  I was young enough to still respond to authority so I did as told, much to my later regret.  This was circa 1962 when I was 11.  But this little event was my benign image of government and segregation but told me all I needed to know before I even learned about lynch law and KKK's.  

On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 10:03:48 AM EDT, Jim Harris <jameswallaceharris@...> wrote:


I did not nominate the book, but when I read the reviews of the nominated book I knew I wanted to read Robert E. Lee and Me. It is the perfect book for the moment. I think it illuminates the backlash on critical race theory. Republicans are trying to preserve the history written by the Lost Cause movement, which was developed over the last century. Critical race theory will erase all of it, and I'm for that.

I was born in Ohio, and lived in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, but spent most of my life in the south. As kids, we'd play civil war and I was always a Yankee because I was born in Ohio. I've always identified with the North regarding the civil war. Unlike Ty Seidale, even though I lived in the south, I never admired the Confederacy or the Old South. I grew up mainly in Miami, which isn't very Southern. However, I've lived in Memphis since 1971, so I'm used to knowing people Seidale describes. 


Re: Robert E. Lee and Me by Ty Seidule - open

Jeffrey Taylor
 

I nominated the book after seeing the discussion between Seidule and David Petraeus on C-Span.  That sold me on the work.  It adds significant perspective to all the discussions regarding naming changes and monument removals that are currently prominent in the South today.

On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 07:46:11 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Hi folks,

Today we begin our discussion of "Robert E. Lee and Me: A Southerner’s Reckoning” by Ty Seidule (2021).  I hope you’ve all had time to get it and maybe start it if not finished it.

As usual, there are rarely spoilers in non-fiction, so post as you will. If you are sensitive about spoilers you might consider finishing the book prior to reading the messages.  I'll be posting optional questions every other day or so for about 15 days. If you have a question or any kind of point you'd like to make about the book feel free to post any time.

In a forceful but humane narrative, former soldier and head of the West Point history department Ty Seidule's Robert E. Lee and Me challenges the myths and lies of the Confederate legacy—and explores why some of this country’s oldest wounds have never healed.

Ty Seidule grew up revering Robert E. Lee. From his southern childhood to his service in the U.S. Army, every part of his life reinforced the Lost Cause myth: that Lee was the greatest man who ever lived, and that the Confederates were underdogs who lost the Civil War with honor. Now, as a retired brigadier general and Professor Emeritus of History at West Point, his view has radically changed. From a soldier, a scholar, and a southerner, Ty Seidule believes that American history demands a reckoning.

In a unique blend of history and reflection, Seidule deconstructs the truth about the Confederacy—that its undisputed primary goal was the subjugation and enslavement of Black Americans—and directly challenges the idea of honoring those who labored to preserve that system and committed treason in their failed attempt to achieve it. Through the arc of Seidule’s own life, as well as the culture that formed him, he seeks a path to understanding why the facts of the Civil War have remained buried beneath layers of myth and even outright lies—and how they embody a cultural gulf that separates millions of Americans to this day.

Part history lecture, part meditation on the Civil War and its fallout, and part memoir, Robert E. Lee and Me challenges the deeply-held legends and myths of the Confederacy—and provides a surprising interpretation of essential truths that our country still has a difficult time articulating and accepting.

*****
Becky





Re: Becky's June Reads

Merilee Olson
 

Kierkegaard and Adler-Olsen. What a combo😂I’m just finishing my first Adler-Olsen, The Keeper of Lost Causes.  Love the main character, but some of the scenes are pretty creepy.  Read Smilla’s Sense of Snow years ago.  You should watch the series, Borgen.

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 2:37 PM johannakurz <johannakurz@...> wrote:
In preperation of my Denmark trip in August and September with my face to face literature group, I am reading a lot books by Danish writers. I started last month with thrillers by Adler- Olsen, this month with thrillers by Karen Vad Brunn and Benni Bodker, who are actually a couple. I pulled out writings from Sören Kiergegaard, also a thriller by Peter Hoeg... Miss Smillas Gespuer fuer Schnee...don't know the Englush title right now. Then I read short stories by Blixen, fairy tales by Anderson...I also will read his autobiography and some travel books.and last but not least...for July, I will read short stories and novels by the 1917 Literature Nobel prize winners Pontoppidan and Giellerup..
In between I read Underland and Immanuel Kant...und?

Johanna



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
Datum: 01.07.21 19:33 (GMT+01:00)
Betreff: [AllNonfiction] Becky's June Reads

I had a pretty good month - 14 books read with 7 crime novels and 1 sci-fi, 2 general fiction, and 4 nonfiction. There were 4 women authors and 1 was a translation from Finnish.

CRIME (Sci-fi):
The Man Who Died
by Antti Tuomainen (Finnish)
Rating:  8/A-:  comic literary crime
Crazy mystery dealing with "who is trying to kill the Jaako Kaunismaa, the 1st person narrator?”
*****

A Gentleman’s Murder
by Christopher Huang
Rating:  B+ / historical mystery
Old fashioned who-done-it but too many characters and a lot of stuff happening.
*****

The Mysterious Affair at Styles
by Agatha Christie
1916 / (2021)
Rating:  B+ / puzzler classic
It held up quite well so it was fun. Part of it was the June Challenge - there was some legal drama in there.

*****

When These Mountains Burn
by David Joy –
2020
Rating: 9.5 /A+ : literary crime
Powerful story of drugs and change in western North Carolina -
*****

The Last
by Hanna Jameson
2019
Rating: C; dystopian crime
This is kind of typical dystopian fiction except that there is murder in the Swiss hotel which is isolated after world nuclear devastation.
*****

Some Choose Darkness
By Charlie Doniea
Rating B+ / crime-procedural
Cold case serial killer brings a “sensitive" policewoman (who is also an attorney) to reconstruct the case.
*****

When She Was Helen
by Caroline B. Cooney
2021 /
Rating: A / crime
A retirement community has a somewhat mysterious resident so Clemmie goes to check on him and he’s more than “somewhat” mysterious - he’s creepy.  This seems light but there are twists into being a more thriller type book.
*****

Project Hail Mary
by Andy Weir – 2021
Read by Ray Porter – 16h 10m
Rating: A+ / Sci-Fi
Sci-fi without space drama (interstellar warfare). It’s at least as good as The Martian - Lots of science for dummies (like me).  A very good book - very.
*****

GENERAL FICTION:
Tyll by Daniel Kehlmann
2017 – 344 pages
Translation by Ross Benjamin 2020
Read by Firdus Bamji – 11h 57m
Rating – 8.5 / historical fiction
Tyll is a folklorish character who comes alive in this novel of the Late Middle Ages 16th century Germany. There’s a strand of magical realism going through it.
*****

Antiquities
by Cynthia Ozick
Rating:  9.5 (a novella)
/ historical fiction
Beautiful but a bit strange.  In 1949, 7 old men are leaving their posts as trustees of a boys’ school which was closed in 1915. These 7 are supposed to write memoirs of their days at the school,  but we only get the one - it’s 87 pages long. That generation had different ideas about some hot issues today.
*****

NONFICTION:
Letters to Camondo
By Edmund de Waal
Rating – 9.25 / art history
(Both read and listened)
Edmund de Waal, the author of The Hare with the Amber Eyes, is also the 1st person narrator of this wonderful book which is somewhere between fiction and nonfiction history with a bit of memoir stuck in.  I’d personally call it art history because the only make-believe thing about it is that de Waal is writing letters to Moise Camondo who died in Paris in 1935.  But he never gets any kind of response physically or emotionally or mentally or occult.  So de Waal is the author who presents us a lot of information which is nicely footnoted and we’re given a bibliography of sorts.
If you happen to buy this get the Kindle or print edition because there are gorgeous photographs of the Camondo mansion which Moise turned into a museum in honor of his son and gave to France when Moise died.
*****

Robert E Lee and Me:
A Southerner’s Reckoning with the Myth of the Lost Cause
By Ty Seidule
Rating – 10 / history / memoir
(both read and listened)
Ty Seidule is the history chair at West Point.  He was raised in the South which mythologized Robert E. Lee. During Seidule's tenure at West Point he got tired of honoring what he calls a traitor to the US and spoke his mind then wrote a book and made a video. It’s excellent and not what historians usually do.
*****

The Craft: How Freemason’s Made the Modern World
By John Dickie
2020 / 490 pages
Rating: 9.75 / history
(Both read and listened)
Interesting study of the Freemasons from Scotland and France and England to nowadays all over the world, but dying out.  There’s a lot of misinformation about them as well as scandals and propaganda. Dickie’s account seems pretty well balanced.
*****

Underland: A Deep Time Journey x2
By Robert Macfarlane
Read by Matthew Waterson 12h 3m
Rating: 8.75 - geology /travelogue
(Both read and listened)

Macfarlane studies and meditates on what all is under our feet.  He goes to places like the Epping Forest in England and the Paris tunnels and there’s Slovenia and  north to what’s under Norway and Greenland.
*******

Becky




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