Date   

Re: Noise - Q7

Jeffrey Taylor
 


Oh, the "reserved shelf".  Yes, Some of those history classes were so large there was a sign up sheet to get into the queue for each of the assignments. 

For Freshmen World History we used, A History of the Modern World, Palmer and Colton. That was so impressive a book that it was truly frightening.  Totally different from HS textbooks. Then we had a required reading list and a recommended list.  I was instantly aware of how unprepared I was. 
 

On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 10:23:23 AM EDT, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:


Our Freshman History of Western Civ course had almost all excerpts you had to read (and take notes from ) in the reference library. No photocopiers in the Stone Age. Hundreds of pages/week and waiting in line in the library.  Lots of original sources.  Great class, but not a piece of cake.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 2:49 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Well, no,  Merilee. LOL -   There’d be one or two books for each class I suppose.  One for overall “What is Public Administration?”  and one book for policy analysis and one for some “interesting” biography (like The Nixon Papers - Whitaker Chambers stuff) and one for history and philosophy of administration - one for personnel if they can find it by now - the most recent was probably outdated the week after printing but in my day we had handouts for that.  No books for the internship at the hospital.  (My supervisor told me that being a personnel manager was like writing a thesis every month.)

All the books were fairly light and very dry - like sawdust. I barely remember what courses I took that year but I know I have 30 grad units - musta been something.  I got paid for those units when I became a teacher and then I took grad courses in education.  (I was a mess of education without experience.)

It’s history which had 7 books for each class.  When paperback textbooks became common, the history professors knew no bounds (pricey or not).  I usually waited to buy until the professor actually made an assignment from one of the books he listed in his syllabus.  (They sometimes didn’t - the books were listed so the professor could look good.)

Becky

> On Sep 13, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:
>
> AAAAARRRGGGHHH - 7 books like that🙀
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:29 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> I suppose the ideal reader of Noise might be a grad student in business or public administration, probably for a personnel class.  In that element it should be read as one of 7 books or so plus articles from various journals because what was covered in the book is a very narrow slice of what is by now a very large and deep piece of work - lol. 
>
> Similarly, another good candidate would be someone who has just been promoted to front-line supervisor - those guys usually do the evaluations and most of them got promoted from within so they know very little about “how” to make the judgement calls they’re now going to be making.   
>
> And of course there’s the dept head or project manager - the one who oversees the front line supervisor folks.  She’s started to get a really big head about how good her “instincts," are although her college days are probably to a decade or more behind her.  She’s probably on hiring and other decision-making panels. This woman could stand a refresher. 
>
> I personally can’t think of a soul I’d recommend it to - back in the days I likely would have showed it to a professor. ( I was in grad school in 1975-76 - that’s almost half a century ago!)
>
> Becky
>
> > On Sep 12, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> >
> > Q7  Who is the ideal reader of “Noise?” At what readership were Kahneman and company directing the book? What would his background be, relevant education, employment and interests?  Is the style and organization appropriate to this reader?  Is there anyone you’d recommend the book to or actually give it to as a gift? 
> >
> > Becky
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Noise - Q7

Merilee Olson
 

Our Freshman History of Western Civ course had almost all excerpts you had to read (and take notes from ) in the reference library. No photocopiers in the Stone Age. Hundreds of pages/week and waiting in line in the library.  Lots of original sources.  Great class, but not a piece of cake.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 2:49 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Well, no,  Merilee. LOL -   There’d be one or two books for each class I suppose.  One for overall “What is Public Administration?”  and one book for policy analysis and one for some “interesting” biography (like The Nixon Papers - Whitaker Chambers stuff) and one for history and philosophy of administration - one for personnel if they can find it by now - the most recent was probably outdated the week after printing but in my day we had handouts for that.  No books for the internship at the hospital.  (My supervisor told me that being a personnel manager was like writing a thesis every month.)

All the books were fairly light and very dry - like sawdust. I barely remember what courses I took that year but I know I have 30 grad units - musta been something.  I got paid for those units when I became a teacher and then I took grad courses in education.  (I was a mess of education without experience.)

It’s history which had 7 books for each class.  When paperback textbooks became common, the history professors knew no bounds (pricey or not).  I usually waited to buy until the professor actually made an assignment from one of the books he listed in his syllabus.  (They sometimes didn’t - the books were listed so the professor could look good.)

Becky

> On Sep 13, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:
>
> AAAAARRRGGGHHH - 7 books like that🙀
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:29 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> I suppose the ideal reader of Noise might be a grad student in business or public administration, probably for a personnel class.  In that element it should be read as one of 7 books or so plus articles from various journals because what was covered in the book is a very narrow slice of what is by now a very large and deep piece of work - lol. 
>
> Similarly, another good candidate would be someone who has just been promoted to front-line supervisor - those guys usually do the evaluations and most of them got promoted from within so they know very little about “how” to make the judgement calls they’re now going to be making.   
>
> And of course there’s the dept head or project manager - the one who oversees the front line supervisor folks.  She’s started to get a really big head about how good her “instincts," are although her college days are probably to a decade or more behind her.  She’s probably on hiring and other decision-making panels. This woman could stand a refresher. 
>
> I personally can’t think of a soul I’d recommend it to - back in the days I likely would have showed it to a professor. ( I was in grad school in 1975-76 - that’s almost half a century ago!)
>
> Becky
>
> > On Sep 12, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> >
> > Q7  Who is the ideal reader of “Noise?” At what readership were Kahneman and company directing the book? What would his background be, relevant education, employment and interests?  Is the style and organization appropriate to this reader?  Is there anyone you’d recommend the book to or actually give it to as a gift? 
> >
> > Becky
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: “It’s not fair!”

Becky Lindroos
 

On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:38 PM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:
Kids often complain that “It’s not fair!” Sometimes the person that is being appealed to dismisses or disqualifies the complaint saying things like, “Well suck it up,” or “Life isn’t fair, get used to it.”
I’ve never made much of an attempt to be “fair” for its own sake. When my kids were little they’d cry “It’s not fair!” And I told them that if they wanted to play fair, we could do that - nobody would get anything until both kids could get it. This meant there was no new dress for Noelle until Isaac got one, too. No new soccer ball until Noelle got one too. I got so bad with this lecture that all I had to do was ask the question: "You want to play fair?” And they’d say, “No, Mom, it's okay!” They did NOT want to hear that lecture again.

A 6th grade teacher friend wrote in the upper left hand corner of his chalkboard “Did someone tell you that life would be fair?” It wasn’t large script, but it wasn’t a tiny note to self, either. - heh.

Fair annoys me. But unfair annoys me, too, like the grossly unfair distribution of wealth and health care and educational opportunities or safe housing, etc. But those are in a different league than a new soccer ball for a 5-year old. It’s not fair some people have higher medical expenses than others through no fault of their own.

Otoh, I’m not big on taxes being fair, either, not with the wealthiest 1% of families in the United States holding about 40% of all wealth and the bottom 90% of families holding less than one-quarter of it. And then they get tax cuts while someone else will have to pay our new debts from Covid and Climate Change and whatever else is coming.

Becky

On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:38 PM, David Markham <davidgmarkham@gmail.com> wrote:


Even when unfairness is only a minor concern, system noise poses another problem. People who are affected by evaluative judgments expect the values these judgments reflect to be those of the system, not of the individual judges. Something must have gone badly wrong if one customer, complaining of a defective laptop, gets fully reimbursed, and another gets a mere apology; or if one employee who has been with a firm for five years asks for a promotion and gets exactly that, while another employee, whose performance is otherwise identical, is politely turned down. System noise is inconsistency, and inconsistency damages the credibility of the system.

Kahneman, Daniel; Sibony, Olivier; Sunstein, Cass R.. Noise . Little, Brown and Company. p.53

What people want, usually, is systems to provide consistent judgments rather than a particular outcome. It is much easier to lose if you lose fair. It hurts much more to lose and to lose because of an unfair judgment.

I don’t mind losing an argument if my partner(s) are arguing in good faith. But if they are lying or cheating or just incompetent, it is much more hurtful.

It is this unfairness in system judgments that precipitate and stoke revenge fantasies. I work with many clients in psychotherapy who harbor depression and anxiety and as we uncover their defenses what often we find is anger, resentments, and grievances over previous injustice and/or abuse.

Kids often complain that “It’s not fair!” Sometimes the person that is being appealed to dismisses or disqualifies the complaint saying things like, “Well suck it up,” or “Life isn’t fair, get used to it.”

Human beings want, at the most fundamental level, fairness, justice, and reciprocity. In the Millennial generation, and gen Z the sense of victimhood and grievance is especially prevalent because they have been raised in an atmosphere of entitlement. “He looked at me funny!” “What she said hurt my feelings.” People insist that they be given “trigger warnings” before the other person says things that the victim claims were unfair to their dignity and self worth.

There has been a regression to egocentric world views which contributes to the polarization we see in our current societal discourse. Social institutions are losing their credibility and public support because of the “noise” in their systems when judgments are made that have a negative impact on the people those institutions are intended to serve. It has come to the point that the very foundations of our democracy are being threatened.

When have you been on the receiving end of a system's judgment that you thought was unfair? Could you, did you, appeal the decision? What happened?

David Markham

<image.gif>


Re: “It’s not fair!”

Carol Mannchen
 

A few things regarding fairness come to mind, the first being when I was back in school -- a little kid.  I never thought it was fair to punish the whole class for something one or two people had done.  When I was in the 7th grade, I had a totally incompetent, about nineteen year old teacher.  She could not have finished college.  Anyway, she had problems controlling the class, so the principal, a mean old nun, would come in and punish the boys (folded up ruler on the palms of the hands beatings) and do nothing to the girls.  I thought this was unfair.  But then, boys could become astronauts, and girls couldn't.  

Is it fair that I was born in the US and have always lived in a warm house, but that some other girl my age was born in Afghanistan and has never had a warm house and on top of that has had to live in fear and without books for an entire lifetime?  Life is, indeed, unfair.

Which gets me to this -- how can we not welcome refugees?  (Obviously, I have at least temporarily stopped reading the book, and I am off track here.)

Carol Mannchen

Hermitage, TN
oldlawmom@...
615-310-4504




On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 4:38 PM David Markham <davidgmarkham@...> wrote:


Even when unfairness is only a minor concern, system noise poses another problem. People who are affected by evaluative judgments expect the values these judgments reflect to be those of the system, not of the individual judges. Something must have gone badly wrong if one customer, complaining of a defective laptop, gets fully reimbursed, and another gets a mere apology; or if one employee who has been with a firm for five years asks for a promotion and gets exactly that, while another employee, whose performance is otherwise identical, is politely turned down. System noise is inconsistency, and inconsistency damages the credibility of the system.


Kahneman, Daniel; Sibony, Olivier; Sunstein, Cass R.. Noise . Little, Brown and Company. p.53 


What people want, usually, is systems to provide consistent judgments rather than a particular outcome. It is much easier to lose if you lose fair. It hurts much more to lose and to lose because of an unfair judgment.


I don’t mind losing an argument if my partner(s) are arguing in good faith. But if they are lying or cheating or just incompetent, it is much more hurtful.


It is this unfairness in system judgments that precipitate and stoke revenge fantasies. I work with many clients in psychotherapy who harbor depression and anxiety and as we uncover their defenses what often we find is anger, resentments, and grievances over previous injustice and/or abuse.


Kids often complain that “It’s not fair!” Sometimes the person that is being appealed to dismisses or disqualifies the complaint saying things like, “Well suck it up,” or “Life isn’t fair, get used to it.”


Human beings want, at the most fundamental level, fairness, justice, and reciprocity. In the Millennial generation, and gen Z the sense of victimhood and grievance is especially prevalent because they have been raised in an atmosphere of entitlement. “He looked at me funny!” “What she said hurt my feelings.” People insist that they be given “trigger warnings” before the other person says things that the victim claims were unfair to their dignity and self worth.


There has been a regression to egocentric world views which contributes to the polarization we see in our current societal discourse. Social institutions are losing their credibility and public support because of the “noise” in their systems when judgments are made that have a negative impact on the people those institutions are intended to serve. It has come to the point that the very foundations of our democracy are being threatened.


When have you been on the receiving end of a system's judgment that you thought was unfair? Could you, did you, appeal the decision? What happened?


David Markham


image.gif


“It’s not fair!”

David Markham
 


Even when unfairness is only a minor concern, system noise poses another problem. People who are affected by evaluative judgments expect the values these judgments reflect to be those of the system, not of the individual judges. Something must have gone badly wrong if one customer, complaining of a defective laptop, gets fully reimbursed, and another gets a mere apology; or if one employee who has been with a firm for five years asks for a promotion and gets exactly that, while another employee, whose performance is otherwise identical, is politely turned down. System noise is inconsistency, and inconsistency damages the credibility of the system.


Kahneman, Daniel; Sibony, Olivier; Sunstein, Cass R.. Noise . Little, Brown and Company. p.53 


What people want, usually, is systems to provide consistent judgments rather than a particular outcome. It is much easier to lose if you lose fair. It hurts much more to lose and to lose because of an unfair judgment.


I don’t mind losing an argument if my partner(s) are arguing in good faith. But if they are lying or cheating or just incompetent, it is much more hurtful.


It is this unfairness in system judgments that precipitate and stoke revenge fantasies. I work with many clients in psychotherapy who harbor depression and anxiety and as we uncover their defenses what often we find is anger, resentments, and grievances over previous injustice and/or abuse.


Kids often complain that “It’s not fair!” Sometimes the person that is being appealed to dismisses or disqualifies the complaint saying things like, “Well suck it up,” or “Life isn’t fair, get used to it.”


Human beings want, at the most fundamental level, fairness, justice, and reciprocity. In the Millennial generation, and gen Z the sense of victimhood and grievance is especially prevalent because they have been raised in an atmosphere of entitlement. “He looked at me funny!” “What she said hurt my feelings.” People insist that they be given “trigger warnings” before the other person says things that the victim claims were unfair to their dignity and self worth.


There has been a regression to egocentric world views which contributes to the polarization we see in our current societal discourse. Social institutions are losing their credibility and public support because of the “noise” in their systems when judgments are made that have a negative impact on the people those institutions are intended to serve. It has come to the point that the very foundations of our democracy are being threatened.


When have you been on the receiving end of a system's judgment that you thought was unfair? Could you, did you, appeal the decision? What happened?


David Markham


image.gif


Re: Booker International Prize.

Magda
 

Ok, wrong group :)

Magda

On Sep 15, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Magda <fotka.kalinowska@...> wrote:

I’m happy reading the international shortlist, too.  Or, at least attempting it. 😆 
This year, I have abandoned a few.  

Magda

On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:09 PM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:


I’d vote for doing the same next year.   The Diop book won the International prize, methinks?

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 2:40 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Here is the Booker International Short List for 2021 which was released on June 2, 2021.
https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/prize-years/international/2021

At Night All Blood Is Black - David Diop
In Memory of Memory-Maria Stepanova
The Dangers of Smoking in Bed- Mariana Enriquez
The Employees - Andrzej Tichý
The War of the Poor - Eric Vuillard
When We Cease to Understand the World -Benjamin Labatut

Last year we used the 6 books on the Short List for the Booker and the 6 books on the Short List of the International to create a 12-book list of reads for the group for this year.  We’re now on the September selection. 

Should we do the same thing for the upcoming year?  It’s a matter sorting the books for availability, length and type of award.  I can do that again,  run the results by the group for changes and then post the final results.   

I’ve read At Night All Blood Is Black by David Diop. 

Becky











Re: Booker International Prize.

Magda
 

I’m happy reading the international shortlist, too.  Or, at least attempting it. 😆 
This year, I have abandoned a few.  

Magda

On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:09 PM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:


I’d vote for doing the same next year.   The Diop book won the International prize, methinks?

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 2:40 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Here is the Booker International Short List for 2021 which was released on June 2, 2021.
https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/prize-years/international/2021

At Night All Blood Is Black - David Diop
In Memory of Memory-Maria Stepanova
The Dangers of Smoking in Bed- Mariana Enriquez
The Employees - Andrzej Tichý
The War of the Poor - Eric Vuillard
When We Cease to Understand the World -Benjamin Labatut

Last year we used the 6 books on the Short List for the Booker and the 6 books on the Short List of the International to create a 12-book list of reads for the group for this year.  We’re now on the September selection. 

Should we do the same thing for the upcoming year?  It’s a matter sorting the books for availability, length and type of award.  I can do that again,  run the results by the group for changes and then post the final results.   

I’ve read At Night All Blood Is Black by David Diop. 

Becky











Re: Oops

Merilee Olson
 

S**t happens…

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 4:52 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
I don’t know how this ended up here in All-non AND in the Booker group. It looks like I mailed it twice.  Sorry.

Becky

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:39 PM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
>
> Here is the Booker International Short List for 2021 which was released on June 2, 2021.
> https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/prize-years/international/2021
>
> At Night All Blood Is Black - David Diop
> In Memory of Memory-Maria Stepanova
> The Dangers of Smoking in Bed- Mariana Enriquez
> The Employees - Andrzej Tichý
> The War of the Poor - Eric Vuillard
> When We Cease to Understand the World -Benjamin Labatut
>
> Last year we used the 6 books on the Short List for the Booker and the 6 books on the Short List of the International to create a 12-book list of reads for the group for this year.  We’re now on the September selection. 
>
> Should we do the same thing for the upcoming year?  It’s a matter sorting the books for availability, length and type of award.  I can do that again,  run the results by the group for changes and then post the final results.   
>
> I’ve read At Night All Blood Is Black by David Diop. 
>
> Becky
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Oops

Becky Lindroos
 

I don’t know how this ended up here in All-non AND in the Booker group. It looks like I mailed it twice. Sorry.

Becky

On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:39 PM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Here is the Booker International Short List for 2021 which was released on June 2, 2021.
https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/prize-years/international/2021

At Night All Blood Is Black - David Diop
In Memory of Memory-Maria Stepanova
The Dangers of Smoking in Bed- Mariana Enriquez
The Employees - Andrzej Tichý
The War of the Poor - Eric Vuillard
When We Cease to Understand the World -Benjamin Labatut

Last year we used the 6 books on the Short List for the Booker and the 6 books on the Short List of the International to create a 12-book list of reads for the group for this year. We’re now on the September selection.

Should we do the same thing for the upcoming year? It’s a matter sorting the books for availability, length and type of award. I can do that again, run the results by the group for changes and then post the final results.

I’ve read At Night All Blood Is Black by David Diop.

Becky










Re: Booker International Prize.

Merilee Olson
 

I’d vote for doing the same next year.   The Diop book won the International prize, methinks?

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 2:40 PM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Here is the Booker International Short List for 2021 which was released on June 2, 2021.
https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/prize-years/international/2021

At Night All Blood Is Black - David Diop
In Memory of Memory-Maria Stepanova
The Dangers of Smoking in Bed- Mariana Enriquez
The Employees - Andrzej Tichý
The War of the Poor - Eric Vuillard
When We Cease to Understand the World -Benjamin Labatut

Last year we used the 6 books on the Short List for the Booker and the 6 books on the Short List of the International to create a 12-book list of reads for the group for this year.  We’re now on the September selection. 

Should we do the same thing for the upcoming year?  It’s a matter sorting the books for availability, length and type of award.  I can do that again,  run the results by the group for changes and then post the final results.   

I’ve read At Night All Blood Is Black by David Diop. 

Becky











Booker International Prize.

Becky Lindroos
 

Here is the Booker International Short List for 2021 which was released on June 2, 2021.
https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/prize-years/international/2021

At Night All Blood Is Black - David Diop
In Memory of Memory-Maria Stepanova
The Dangers of Smoking in Bed- Mariana Enriquez
The Employees - Andrzej Tichý
The War of the Poor - Eric Vuillard
When We Cease to Understand the World -Benjamin Labatut

Last year we used the 6 books on the Short List for the Booker and the 6 books on the Short List of the International to create a 12-book list of reads for the group for this year. We’re now on the September selection.

Should we do the same thing for the upcoming year? It’s a matter sorting the books for availability, length and type of award. I can do that again, run the results by the group for changes and then post the final results.

I’ve read At Night All Blood Is Black by David Diop.

Becky


Noise - Q8?

Becky Lindroos
 

What are some of the more important areas in which we need to remove judgement error whether it's bias or noise? Legal decisions? Medical decisions? Business school admissions?

Do you think that in the same way kids know how their parents lean in certain situations, so do co-workers, fellow doctors, parole boards?

In New Zealand many medical decisions are made by panel thanks to limited resources and all sorts of people vying for them. (In the US the determination is made by access to money but also in the US insurance companies often make their decisions by internal processes.

Becky


Re: Noise - Q7

johannakurz
 

Today I received NMarc Ribot's New book UNSTRUNG. Rants and Stories of a Noise Guitarist.
Well  this is the kind of noise I like. I think I switch books now.

Johanna 



Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet


-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...>
Datum: 13.09.21 20:49 (GMT+01:00)
An: AllNonfiction@groups.io
Betreff: Re: [AllNonfiction] Noise - Q7

Well, no,  Merilee. LOL -   There’d be one or two books for each class I suppose.  One for overall “What is Public Administration?”  and one book for policy analysis and one for some “interesting” biography (like The Nixon Papers - Whitaker Chambers stuff) and one for history and philosophy of administration - one for personnel if they can find it by now - the most recent was probably outdated the week after printing but in my day we had handouts for that.  No books for the internship at the hospital.  (My supervisor told me that being a personnel manager was like writing a thesis every month.)

All the books were fairly light and very dry - like sawdust. I barely remember what courses I took that year but I know I have 30 grad units - musta been something.  I got paid for those units when I became a teacher and then I took grad courses in education.  (I was a mess of education without experience.)

It’s history which had 7 books for each class.  When paperback textbooks became common, the history professors knew no bounds (pricey or not).  I usually waited to buy until the professor actually made an assignment from one of the books he listed in his syllabus.  (They sometimes didn’t - the books were listed so the professor could look good.)

Becky

> On Sep 13, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:
>
> AAAAARRRGGGHHH - 7 books like that🙀
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:29 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> I suppose the ideal reader of Noise might be a grad student in business or public administration, probably for a personnel class.  In that element it should be read as one of 7 books or so plus articles from various journals because what was covered in the book is a very narrow slice of what is by now a very large and deep piece of work - lol. 
>
> Similarly, another good candidate would be someone who has just been promoted to front-line supervisor - those guys usually do the evaluations and most of them got promoted from within so they know very little about “how” to make the judgement calls they’re now going to be making.  
>
> And of course there’s the dept head or project manager - the one who oversees the front line supervisor folks.  She’s started to get a really big head about how good her “instincts," are although her college days are probably to a decade or more behind her.  She’s probably on hiring and other decision-making panels. This woman could stand a refresher. 
>
> I personally can’t think of a soul I’d recommend it to - back in the days I likely would have showed it to a professor. ( I was in grad school in 1975-76 - that’s almost half a century ago!)
>
> Becky
>
> > On Sep 12, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> >
> > Q7  Who is the ideal reader of “Noise?” At what readership were Kahneman and company directing the book? What would his background be, relevant education, employment and interests?  Is the style and organization appropriate to this reader?  Is there anyone you’d recommend the book to or actually give it to as a gift? 
> >
> > Becky
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Re: Noise - Q7

Jeffrey Taylor
 

Yup.  History as reading stress.  Death by reading.  You would go look for the most remote corner of the library and stake it out for the day.  Read, get up and walk, come back and repeat.  Faculty would say, "That's what historians do."

On Monday, September 13, 2021, 02:49:06 PM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:


Well, no,  Merilee. LOL -  There’d be one or two books for each class I suppose.  One for overall “What is Public Administration?”  and one book for policy analysis and one for some “interesting” biography (like The Nixon Papers - Whitaker Chambers stuff) and one for history and philosophy of administration - one for personnel if they can find it by now - the most recent was probably outdated the week after printing but in my day we had handouts for that.  No books for the internship at the hospital.  (My supervisor told me that being a personnel manager was like writing a thesis every month.)

All the books were fairly light and very dry - like sawdust. I barely remember what courses I took that year but I know I have 30 grad units - musta been something.  I got paid for those units when I became a teacher and then I took grad courses in education.  (I was a mess of education without experience.)

It’s history which had 7 books for each class.  When paperback textbooks became common, the history professors knew no bounds (pricey or not).  I usually waited to buy until the professor actually made an assignment from one of the books he listed in his syllabus.  (They sometimes didn’t - the books were listed so the professor could look good.)

Becky

> On Sep 13, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@...> wrote:
>
> AAAAARRRGGGHHH - 7 books like that🙀
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:29 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> I suppose the ideal reader of Noise might be a grad student in business or public administration, probably for a personnel class.  In that element it should be read as one of 7 books or so plus articles from various journals because what was covered in the book is a very narrow slice of what is by now a very large and deep piece of work - lol. 
>
> Similarly, another good candidate would be someone who has just been promoted to front-line supervisor - those guys usually do the evaluations and most of them got promoted from within so they know very little about “how” to make the judgement calls they’re now going to be making. 
>
> And of course there’s the dept head or project manager - the one who oversees the front line supervisor folks.  She’s started to get a really big head about how good her “instincts," are although her college days are probably to a decade or more behind her.  She’s probably on hiring and other decision-making panels. This woman could stand a refresher. 
>
> I personally can’t think of a soul I’d recommend it to - back in the days I likely would have showed it to a professor. ( I was in grad school in 1975-76 - that’s almost half a century ago!)
>
> Becky
>
> > On Sep 12, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
> >
> > Q7  Who is the ideal reader of “Noise?” At what readership were Kahneman and company directing the book? What would his background be, relevant education, employment and interests?  Is the style and organization appropriate to this reader?  Is there anyone you’d recommend the book to or actually give it to as a gift? 
> >
> > Becky
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Re: Noise - Q7

Becky Lindroos
 

Well, no, Merilee. LOL - There’d be one or two books for each class I suppose. One for overall “What is Public Administration?” and one book for policy analysis and one for some “interesting” biography (like The Nixon Papers - Whitaker Chambers stuff) and one for history and philosophy of administration - one for personnel if they can find it by now - the most recent was probably outdated the week after printing but in my day we had handouts for that. No books for the internship at the hospital. (My supervisor told me that being a personnel manager was like writing a thesis every month.)

All the books were fairly light and very dry - like sawdust. I barely remember what courses I took that year but I know I have 30 grad units - musta been something. I got paid for those units when I became a teacher and then I took grad courses in education. (I was a mess of education without experience.)

It’s history which had 7 books for each class. When paperback textbooks became common, the history professors knew no bounds (pricey or not). I usually waited to buy until the professor actually made an assignment from one of the books he listed in his syllabus. (They sometimes didn’t - the books were listed so the professor could look good.)

Becky

On Sep 13, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Merilee Olson <merilee.olson@gmail.com> wrote:

AAAAARRRGGGHHH - 7 books like that🙀

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:29 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I suppose the ideal reader of Noise might be a grad student in business or public administration, probably for a personnel class. In that element it should be read as one of 7 books or so plus articles from various journals because what was covered in the book is a very narrow slice of what is by now a very large and deep piece of work - lol.

Similarly, another good candidate would be someone who has just been promoted to front-line supervisor - those guys usually do the evaluations and most of them got promoted from within so they know very little about “how” to make the judgement calls they’re now going to be making.

And of course there’s the dept head or project manager - the one who oversees the front line supervisor folks. She’s started to get a really big head about how good her “instincts," are although her college days are probably to a decade or more behind her. She’s probably on hiring and other decision-making panels. This woman could stand a refresher.

I personally can’t think of a soul I’d recommend it to - back in the days I likely would have showed it to a professor. ( I was in grad school in 1975-76 - that’s almost half a century ago!)

Becky

On Sep 12, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Q7 Who is the ideal reader of “Noise?” At what readership were Kahneman and company directing the book? What would his background be, relevant education, employment and interests? Is the style and organization appropriate to this reader? Is there anyone you’d recommend the book to or actually give it to as a gift?

Becky









Re: Noise - Q7

Merilee Olson
 

AAAAARRRGGGHHH - 7 books like that🙀

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 11:29 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
I suppose the ideal reader of Noise might be a grad student in business or public administration, probably for a personnel class.  In that element it should be read as one of 7 books or so plus articles from various journals because what was covered in the book is a very narrow slice of what is by now a very large and deep piece of work - lol. 

Similarly, another good candidate would be someone who has just been promoted to front-line supervisor - those guys usually do the evaluations and most of them got promoted from within so they know very little about “how” to make the judgement calls they’re now going to be making.   

And of course there’s the dept head or project manager - the one who oversees the front line supervisor folks.  She’s started to get a really big head about how good her “instincts," are although her college days are probably to a decade or more behind her.  She’s probably on hiring and other decision-making panels. This woman could stand a refresher. 

I personally can’t think of a soul I’d recommend it to - back in the days I likely would have showed it to a professor. ( I was in grad school in 1975-76 - that’s almost half a century ago!)

Becky

> On Sep 12, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
>
> Q7  Who is the ideal reader of “Noise?” At what readership were Kahneman and company directing the book? What would his background be, relevant education, employment and interests?  Is the style and organization appropriate to this reader?  Is there anyone you’d recommend the book to or actually give it to as a gift? 
>
> Becky
>
>
>
>







Re: Noise - Q7

Becky Lindroos
 

I suppose the ideal reader of Noise might be a grad student in business or public administration, probably for a personnel class. In that element it should be read as one of 7 books or so plus articles from various journals because what was covered in the book is a very narrow slice of what is by now a very large and deep piece of work - lol.

Similarly, another good candidate would be someone who has just been promoted to front-line supervisor - those guys usually do the evaluations and most of them got promoted from within so they know very little about “how” to make the judgement calls they’re now going to be making.

And of course there’s the dept head or project manager - the one who oversees the front line supervisor folks. She’s started to get a really big head about how good her “instincts," are although her college days are probably to a decade or more behind her. She’s probably on hiring and other decision-making panels. This woman could stand a refresher.

I personally can’t think of a soul I’d recommend it to - back in the days I likely would have showed it to a professor. ( I was in grad school in 1975-76 - that’s almost half a century ago!)

Becky

On Sep 12, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Q7 Who is the ideal reader of “Noise?” At what readership were Kahneman and company directing the book? What would his background be, relevant education, employment and interests? Is the style and organization appropriate to this reader? Is there anyone you’d recommend the book to or actually give it to as a gift?

Becky




Re: Intra-person reliability

Merilee Olson
 

I’m not sure punctuation and spelling and grammar is EVER taught around here these days🙀

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:50 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
Oh I know I wasn’t totally objective either, Magda.  What I liked about our system was that there was a rubric - and I went by it as much as possible AND THEN there was a back-up rater who also went by the same rubric.  I’d say 75% of our scores matched - both teachers gave the same paper a 2 or whatever.  So that meant 25% had to go to a third person. 

The problem we ran into was that the rubric was interpreted wrongly and grading on things which weren’t in our standards.  (What is a "full sentence”? - Does it have to have a period? Or just a noun and verb? - Punctuation wasn’t even taught until 3rd grade. - Aaaaarrrrrggggghhh!!!!)

Becky

> On Sep 12, 2021, at 9:18 PM, Magda <fotka.kalinowska@...> wrote:
>
> Rubrics or no rubrics, I know that I have not been 100% objective. I know that I might have graded somebody’s essay too high just because after a whole lot of mediocre ones, it felt  like a breath of fresh air.
> I found marking/grading in groups - we did that when we were training new teachers or coming up with standards for the Board- a
> very valuable exercise.  I think that was the  closest to objectivity that we got. 
> Testing and tests, and if they are an objective way of measuring real subject knowledge ( or problem solving, or intelligence, etc.) is still another can of worms. 
> Magda
>
>> On Sep 12, 2021, at 7:51 PM, Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@...> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> When I was in the classroom, I made a real attempt to have 100% reliability with all testing and grading rubrics set out in my syllabus and having the tests question objective facts not subjective opinions.  This might have been easier in IT where the systems themselves are pretty objective; a program either works or doesn’t and a computer is about a true/false decider as is possible.  After I switched to management, I’d say in hiring my numbers would be less as it was much harder to devise a way to objectively test skills.  If you ask someone if they can install 600 wifi repeaters and meet a set deadline, it is easy for them to give examples of what they would do or a project that was similar in their past.  Whether those projects then scaled up or whether they were totally responsible for the project’s success or merely on a team where someone else did the majority of the work was harder to ascertain.
>>
>> 
>>
>> These days, if you call for references, most HR departments will only validate dates of employment.  It is difficult to get supervisors to say much about prospective hires either as they are leary of anything they say coming back on them in the future.
>>
>> 
>>
>> Sandie
>>
>> 
>>
>> From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of David Markham
>> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 2:29 PM
>> To: All nonfiction <AllNonfiction@groups.io>
>> Subject: [AllNonfiction] Intra-person reliability
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>> “In measurement teams, the first problem illustrates within-person reliability, and the second illustrates between-person reliability.”  Noise, p, 46
>> 
>>
>> What kid hasn’t learned to not ask mom or dad for something they might say “no” to when they are in a bad mood?
>> 
>>
>> What kid hasn’t learned to ask mom or dad for something they might say “no” to when they are in the presence of other people who would approve and put mom and dad on the spot?
>> 
>> Is there any one of us who hasn’t been inconsistent in giving approval or rejecting it because we were in a negative mood or there was some other circumstance influencing our decision making?
>> 
>>
>> Have you ever been accused of playing favorites?
>> 
>>
>> Have you ever been accused of being “wishy washy” or “suggestable” or having an “off day?”
>> 
>>
>> It’s easy to get arrogant or domineering and say like a baseball umpire, “If you want to know what a ball or strike is, I’ll tell you.”
>> 
>>
>> Kellyann Conway insisted that there are “alternative facts,” and Dick Cheney said that “truth is what people in power say it is.”
>> 
>>
>> People who are consistent in their beliefs and actions are said to have “integrity.” Yet, actions speak louder than words, and you should pay attention to what people do not what they say.
>> 
>>
>> The point here about “intrarater reliability” is that one person can make different judgments at different times attempting to arrive at an accurate judgment with a known situation.
>> 
>>
>> On a scale of 0 -10 how consistent are your judgments about the same situation over the course of time? 10 = 100% consistent, 5 = 50% consistent, 2 = 20% consistent, etc.
>> 
>>
>> If you have been a teacher, how accurate are your grades of student’s performance? If you are a supervisor in a work situation, how accurate are your performance appraisals?
>> 
>>
>> David Markham
>>
>> <image001.gif>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>







Truth = correspondence, coherence, of both?

David Markham
 

image.gif


What made you feel you got the judgment right, or at least right enough to be your answer? We suggest this feeling is an internal signal of judgment completion, unrelated to any outside information. Your answer felt right if it seemed to fit comfortably enough with the evidence.


Kahneman, Daniel; Sibony, Olivier; Sunstein, Cass R.. Noise . Little, Brown and Company. P.48-49


The essential feature of this internal signal is that the sense of coherence is part of the experience of judgment. It is not contingent on a real outcome. As a result, the internal signal is just as available for nonverifiable judgments as it is for real, verifiable ones.


Kahneman, Daniel; Sibony, Olivier; Sunstein, Cass R.. Noise . Little, Brown and Company. P.49


Truth has been defined in at least two ways, a statement corresponds to external reality, and a statement is logical, rational, it is coherent.


The authors of Noise suggest that judgment occurs when the judge senses an “internal signal” of coherence. Things “seem right.” Sometimes we call this “common sense.”


But sometimes things that “seem right” are wrong, and things one might call “common sense” aren’t all that common.


Have there been times when you “felt” that a judgment was correct only to find out it was wrong?


How often do you find that coherence, indeed, corresponds with reality in you judgments? 50% of the time? 75% of the time? 100% of the time?


I tend to be skeptical and frame judgments as hypotheses. I think my hypotheses tend to be confirmed about 90% of the time when I am 90% confident that my judgement is correct. The lower my confidence the lower the percentage of hypotheses confirmation


David Markham



Re: Intra-person reliability

David Markham
 

Hi Becky et al.

There is the WHAT and the HOW. They often get confused.

The WHAT is the goal often set by the authorities.

Sometimes the HOW is set by authorities as well but as you say there are many roads to Rome and usually better outcomes are achieved when the HOW is left to individual discretion assuming the HOW is legal, moral, and ethical.

David Markham

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 3:13 AM Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
There are lots of roads to Rome.  I had to teach writing sentences but I could use Dick and Jane books or I could use Leo Leoni books.  So long as the kids could create and write very simple sentences about an animal of their choice by the end of the year I was fine. 

I really enjoyed doing it this way - I was told what my end result ought to look like but I was not told how to get there - at least if I was it was very loosely.  That was a wonderful thing when I started - By the end of the year the kids are supposed to know their letters and sounds.  Okay fine. Out of the myriad of methods, I got to choose my own way of teaching that - I used what worked best for me and for them.  Yay!   

Was I a dictator?  I didn’t think so.  Was the district dictating anything to me? Not much. Of course there were other teachers who had issues with the goals themselves: why should 5-year olds have to learn the letters and sounds?  It got different when they added 30 sight words and writing sentences - No Child Left Behind and State Standards. 

Becky

> On Sep 13, 2021, at 12:32 AM, Jeffrey Taylor via groups.io <jatta97=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> The idea of creating and requiring audit trails redefines the idea of objectivity into a narrow strait jacket that actually works.  Objective evidence is a presentation of data elements which an auditor can independently research and verify. 
>
> Using this standard objectivity is defined by the list of assigned measurements, the rubrics.  There can be a State of California standard, a state of Georgia test, a Marxist test, a Nazi test.  Each social construct defines its own standards of objectivity.
>
> Consistency is a criterion of objectivity.  If I sometimes follow the standards of the state of California and sometimes don't then I am a bad teacher according to the State of California.  If I set up my own standards then I am telling my students this is now what you must learn.  Am I not setting myself up as a dictator, establishing on my own authority what a student must remember and think? 
>
> I'm not accusing anyone here, just thinking and typing and hitting send.  Send in the thought police before I corrupt society. 
>
>
> On Monday, September 13, 2021, 12:50:35 AM EDT, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176@...> wrote:
>
>
> Oh I know I wasn’t totally objective either, Magda.  What I liked about our system was that there was a rubric - and I went by it as much as possible AND THEN there was a back-up rater who also went by the same rubric.  I’d say 75% of our scores matched - both teachers gave the same paper a 2 or whatever.  So that meant 25% had to go to a third person. 
>
> The problem we ran into was that the rubric was interpreted wrongly and grading on things which weren’t in our standards.  (What is a "full sentence”? - Does it have to have a period? Or just a noun and verb? - Punctuation wasn’t even taught until 3rd grade. - Aaaaarrrrrggggghhh!!!!)
>
> Becky
>
> > On Sep 12, 2021, at 9:18 PM, Magda <fotka.kalinowska@...> wrote:
> >
> > Rubrics or no rubrics, I know that I have not been 100% objective. I know that I might have graded somebody’s essay too high just because after a whole lot of mediocre ones, it felt  like a breath of fresh air.
> > I found marking/grading in groups - we did that when we were training new teachers or coming up with standards for the Board- a
> > very valuable exercise.  I think that was the  closest to objectivity that we got. 
> > Testing and tests, and if they are an objective way of measuring real subject knowledge ( or problem solving, or intelligence, etc.) is still another can of worms. 
> > Magda
> >
> >> On Sep 12, 2021, at 7:51 PM, Sandie Kirkland <skirkland@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> When I was in the classroom, I made a real attempt to have 100% reliability with all testing and grading rubrics set out in my syllabus and having the tests question objective facts not subjective opinions.  This might have been easier in IT where the systems themselves are pretty objective; a program either works or doesn’t and a computer is about a true/false decider as is possible.  After I switched to management, I’d say in hiring my numbers would be less as it was much harder to devise a way to objectively test skills.  If you ask someone if they can install 600 wifi repeaters and meet a set deadline, it is easy for them to give examples of what they would do or a project that was similar in their past.  Whether those projects then scaled up or whether they were totally responsible for the project’s success or merely on a team where someone else did the majority of the work was harder to ascertain.
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> These days, if you call for references, most HR departments will only validate dates of employment.  It is difficult to get supervisors to say much about prospective hires either as they are leary of anything they say coming back on them in the future.
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> Sandie
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> From: AllNonfiction@groups.io <AllNonfiction@groups.io> On Behalf Of David Markham
> >> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 2:29 PM
> >> To: All nonfiction <AllNonfiction@groups.io>
> >> Subject: [AllNonfiction] Intra-person reliability
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> 
> >> “In measurement teams, the first problem illustrates within-person reliability, and the second illustrates between-person reliability.”  Noise, p, 46
> >> 
> >>
> >> What kid hasn’t learned to not ask mom or dad for something they might say “no” to when they are in a bad mood?
> >> 
> >>
> >> What kid hasn’t learned to ask mom or dad for something they might say “no” to when they are in the presence of other people who would approve and put mom and dad on the spot?
> >> 
> >> Is there any one of us who hasn’t been inconsistent in giving approval or rejecting it because we were in a negative mood or there was some other circumstance influencing our decision making?
> >> 
> >>
> >> Have you ever been accused of playing favorites?
> >> 
> >>
> >> Have you ever been accused of being “wishy washy” or “suggestable” or having an “off day?”
> >> 
> >>
> >> It’s easy to get arrogant or domineering and say like a baseball umpire, “If you want to know what a ball or strike is, I’ll tell you.”
> >> 
> >>
> >> Kellyann Conway insisted that there are “alternative facts,” and Dick Cheney said that “truth is what people in power say it is.”
> >> 
> >>
> >> People who are consistent in their beliefs and actions are said to have “integrity.” Yet, actions speak louder than words, and you should pay attention to what people do not what they say.
> >> 
> >>
> >> The point here about “intrarater reliability” is that one person can make different judgments at different times attempting to arrive at an accurate judgment with a known situation.
> >> 
> >>
> >> On a scale of 0 -10 how consistent are your judgments about the same situation over the course of time? 10 = 100% consistent, 5 = 50% consistent, 2 = 20% consistent, etc.
> >> 
> >>
> >> If you have been a teacher, how accurate are your grades of student’s performance? If you are a supervisor in a work situation, how accurate are your performance appraisals?
> >> 
> >>
> >> David Markham
> >>
> >> <image001.gif>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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>






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