PinPoint APRS support?
Lynn Deffenbaugh
Does anyone know where the PinPoint APRS author can be reached? I suspect that package doesn't properly support Reply-Acks in APRS messages. http://www.aprs.org/aprs11/replyacks.txt Consider the following message interchange that I just had
between APRSIS32 and PinPoint APRS via RobustPacket on 30m: 2021-01-20 16:22:38 EST: WB8SKP-13>APIN20,WIDE1-1,qAR,VE4KLM::KJ4ERJ :Hello test.{1 2021-01-20 16:22:38 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,NINTH::WB8SKP-13:ack1 2021-01-20 16:23:08 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Greetings{HR} 2021-01-20 16:23:08 EST: WB8SKP-13>APIN20,TCPIP*,qAC,T2CAWEST::KJ4ERJ :ack 2021-01-20 16:23:40 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Greetings{HR} 2021-01-20 16:24:13 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Greetings{HR} 2021-01-20 16:25:17 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Greetings{HR} 2021-01-20 16:25:59 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Pinpoint acks are broken{HS} 2021-01-20 16:25:59 EST: WB8SKP-13>APIN20,TCPIP*,qAC,T2CAWEST::KJ4ERJ :ack [Duplicate message content] 2021-01-20 16:26:31 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Pinpoint acks are broken{HS} 2021-01-20 16:27:03 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Pinpoint acks are broken{HS} 2021-01-20 16:27:07 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:They don't support Reply-Acks{HT} 2021-01-20 16:27:07 EST: WB8SKP-13>APIN20,TCPIP*,qAC,T2CAWEST::KJ4ERJ :ack [Duplicate message content] 2021-01-20 16:27:40 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:They don't support Reply-Acks{HT} 2021-01-20 16:28:12 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:They don't support Reply-Acks{HT} 2021-01-20 16:28:40 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} 2021-01-20 16:29:14 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} 2021-01-20 16:29:47 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} 2021-01-20 16:30:52 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} PinPoint is apparently only acking the first reception of a message where the base APRS spec says that ALL receptions should be ack'd. The reason for this is, even though the destination received the message and issued the ack, the ack may not get back to the source which will then retry the original message resulting in a duplicate message at the destination. This duplicate MUST be acked in the hopes that eventually the ack gets through to the source which will then quit retrying the message. In my case, I manually aborted the retries on each message once I was certain it was received on the destination. Also, notice that PinPoint's acks are missing the sequence
"number". Well, it was called a "number" in the original spec,
but was not constrained to be "numeric". The subsequent Reply-Ack
extension took advantage of that by using alpha-numeric and } in
the (up to) 5 characters of the ack "sequence". Because the ack
wasn't complete, my station continued to retry the message which,
as mentioned above SHOULD have triggered additional acks, even
though they would have been incorrect. WB8SKP-13 then switched to YAAC which gave the following, correct, trace. 2021-01-20 16:32:29 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} 2021-01-20 16:32:37 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,qAR,KB1EJH::KJ4ERJ :ackHU} 2021-01-20 16:34:21 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,TEMP1-1,qAR,WA7GMX-1::KJ4ERJ :OK. Now using YAAC.{M0001 2021-01-20 16:34:21 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,NINTH::WB8SKP-13:ackM0001 2021-01-20 16:35:00 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:This should work better.{HV} 2021-01-20 16:35:08 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,qAR,KB1EJH::KJ4ERJ :ackHV} 2021-01-20 16:35:17 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Yep, I got a valid ack for that one!{HW} 2021-01-20 16:35:19 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,TEMP1-1,qAR,WA7GMX-1::KJ4ERJ :OK. Now using YAAC.{M0001 2021-01-20 16:35:19 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,NINTH::WB8SKP-13:ackM0001 2021-01-20 16:35:52 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Yep, I got a valid ack for that one!{HW} 2021-01-20 16:36:00 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,qAR,WA7GMX-1::KJ4ERJ :ackHW} 2021-01-20 16:37:13 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,TEMP1-1,qAR,KJ4ERJ::KJ4ERJ :TNX for the help.{M0002 2021-01-20 16:37:13 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:ackM0002 2021-01-20 16:37:17 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,TEMP1-1,qAR,KB1EJH::KJ4ERJ :OK. Now using YAAC.{M0001 2021-01-20 16:37:17 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,NINTH::WB8SKP-13:ackM0001 2021-01-20 16:37:28 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:I'm writing up the PinPoint issue for aprssig{HX} 2021-01-20 16:38:03 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:I'm writing up the PinPoint issue for aprssig{HX} 2021-01-20 16:38:12 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,qAR,VE4KLM::KJ4ERJ :ackHX} You'll notice that the acks from YAAC correctly include the alphanumeric and } sequence from the message resulting in a much faster exchange without retries. And YAAC's traditional, although also alphanumeric, sequences (like M0001 and M0002) were properly issued in the return acks. And even though some messages were duplicated in a retry, acks were correctly issued for the duplicate receptions. So, if the PinPoint author is not on any of the three addressed
groups, please pass this message along to their support channel so
that hopefully it's messaging can be fixed. Reply-Acks don't need
to be fully implemented, but whatever "sequence" follows the { in
an incoming message, should be copied into the subsequent ack...
without modification and such acks should be issued for ALL
message receptions, not just the first copy. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE
for Windows Mobile and Win32
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Rob Giuliano
I remember seeing a post somewhere on PinPoint APRS and it said PinPoint is a labor of love by Frank Watervoort AB0WV. Feel free to send email to ab0wv@.... Did you try that email? Robert Giuliano
On Wednesday, January 20, 2021, 4:54:07 PM EST, Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...> wrote:
Does anyone know where the PinPoint APRS author can be reached? I suspect that package doesn't properly support Reply-Acks in APRS messages. http://www.aprs.org/aprs11/replyacks.txt Consider the following message interchange that I just had
between APRSIS32 and PinPoint APRS via RobustPacket on 30m: 2021-01-20 16:22:38 EST: WB8SKP-13>APIN20,WIDE1-1,qAR,VE4KLM::KJ4ERJ :Hello test.{1 2021-01-20 16:22:38 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,NINTH::WB8SKP-13:ack1 2021-01-20 16:23:08 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Greetings{HR} 2021-01-20 16:23:08 EST: WB8SKP-13>APIN20,TCPIP*,qAC,T2CAWEST::KJ4ERJ :ack 2021-01-20 16:23:40 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Greetings{HR} 2021-01-20 16:24:13 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Greetings{HR} 2021-01-20 16:25:17 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Greetings{HR} 2021-01-20 16:25:59 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Pinpoint acks are broken{HS} 2021-01-20 16:25:59 EST: WB8SKP-13>APIN20,TCPIP*,qAC,T2CAWEST::KJ4ERJ :ack [Duplicate message content] 2021-01-20 16:26:31 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Pinpoint acks are broken{HS} 2021-01-20 16:27:03 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Pinpoint acks are broken{HS} 2021-01-20 16:27:07 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:They don't support Reply-Acks{HT} 2021-01-20 16:27:07 EST: WB8SKP-13>APIN20,TCPIP*,qAC,T2CAWEST::KJ4ERJ :ack [Duplicate message content] 2021-01-20 16:27:40 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:They don't support Reply-Acks{HT} 2021-01-20 16:28:12 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:They don't support Reply-Acks{HT} 2021-01-20 16:28:40 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} 2021-01-20 16:29:14 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} 2021-01-20 16:29:47 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} 2021-01-20 16:30:52 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} PinPoint is apparently only acking the first reception of a message where the base APRS spec says that ALL receptions should be ack'd. The reason for this is, even though the destination received the message and issued the ack, the ack may not get back to the source which will then retry the original message resulting in a duplicate message at the destination. This duplicate MUST be acked in the hopes that eventually the ack gets through to the source which will then quit retrying the message. In my case, I manually aborted the retries on each message once I was certain it was received on the destination. Also, notice that PinPoint's acks are missing the sequence
"number". Well, it was called a "number" in the original spec,
but was not constrained to be "numeric". The subsequent Reply-Ack
extension took advantage of that by using alpha-numeric and } in
the (up to) 5 characters of the ack "sequence". Because the ack
wasn't complete, my station continued to retry the message which,
as mentioned above SHOULD have triggered additional acks, even
though they would have been incorrect. WB8SKP-13 then switched to YAAC which gave the following, correct, trace. 2021-01-20 16:32:29 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:which are non-numeric{HU} 2021-01-20 16:32:37 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,qAR,KB1EJH::KJ4ERJ :ackHU} 2021-01-20 16:34:21 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,TEMP1-1,qAR,WA7GMX-1::KJ4ERJ :OK. Now using YAAC.{M0001 2021-01-20 16:34:21 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,NINTH::WB8SKP-13:ackM0001 2021-01-20 16:35:00 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:This should work better.{HV} 2021-01-20 16:35:08 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,qAR,KB1EJH::KJ4ERJ :ackHV} 2021-01-20 16:35:17 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Yep, I got a valid ack for that one!{HW} 2021-01-20 16:35:19 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,TEMP1-1,qAR,WA7GMX-1::KJ4ERJ :OK. Now using YAAC.{M0001 2021-01-20 16:35:19 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,NINTH::WB8SKP-13:ackM0001 2021-01-20 16:35:52 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:Yep, I got a valid ack for that one!{HW} 2021-01-20 16:36:00 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,qAR,WA7GMX-1::KJ4ERJ :ackHW} 2021-01-20 16:37:13 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,TEMP1-1,qAR,KJ4ERJ::KJ4ERJ :TNX for the help.{M0002 2021-01-20 16:37:13 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:ackM0002 2021-01-20 16:37:17 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,TEMP1-1,qAR,KB1EJH::KJ4ERJ :OK. Now using YAAC.{M0001 2021-01-20 16:37:17 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,NINTH::WB8SKP-13:ackM0001 2021-01-20 16:37:28 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:I'm writing up the PinPoint issue for aprssig{HX} 2021-01-20 16:38:03 EST: KJ4ERJ>APWW11,TCPIP*,qAC,T2NANJING::WB8SKP-13:I'm writing up the PinPoint issue for aprssig{HX} 2021-01-20 16:38:12 EST: WB8SKP-13>APJYC1,qAR,VE4KLM::KJ4ERJ :ackHX} You'll notice that the acks from YAAC correctly include the alphanumeric and } sequence from the message resulting in a much faster exchange without retries. And YAAC's traditional, although also alphanumeric, sequences (like M0001 and M0002) were properly issued in the return acks. And even though some messages were duplicated in a retry, acks were correctly issued for the duplicate receptions. So, if the PinPoint author is not on any of the three addressed
groups, please pass this message along to their support channel so
that hopefully it's messaging can be fixed. Reply-Acks don't need
to be fully implemented, but whatever "sequence" follows the { in
an incoming message, should be copied into the subsequent ack...
without modification and such acks should be issued for ALL
message receptions, not just the first copy. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE
for Windows Mobile and Win32
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Doug Ferrell
Never heard of that client before…
…DOUG KD4MOJ
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Glenn O'Connor
Examine this download page for PP and note the dates for bug fixes, last one done this past December.
https://pinpointaprs.com/download.html 73, Glenn-KF0ED
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