Topics

Igates and their use of digi paths


Justin Cherington
 

I’m trying to wrap my head around two way igates and if they generally use digi paths to increase their IS to RF ranges. In the SW we generally have igates in the cities/towns and wide area digi’s in the mountains. 


As a two way igate, if a station 80 miles away (easily just one hop) transmits a message and I gate it, how do I get the response back to that station when the recipient replies? In APRSIS32, I set the filter to let’s say 20 miles because that’s my direct range.  But that seems to be a disservice to the stations 80 miles away using digi’s, and I’m the closest igate to them. 


Am I missing something? I don’t want to increase qrm needlessly, but the hikers, hunters, and off roaders need love too. Thanks! 


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

Reply and questions interspersed below...

On 6/16/2020 3:05 PM, Justin Cherington wrote:

I’m trying to wrap my head around two way igates and if they generally use digi paths to increase their IS to RF ranges. In the SW we generally have igates in the cities/towns and wide area digi’s in the mountains.

This is true 'nuff.

As a two way igate, if a station 80 miles away (easily just one hop) transmits a message and I gate it, how do I get the response back to that station when the recipient replies?

IS to RF gated packets use the same path that you have configured for the IGate's beacons.  So, whatever you have in Configure / Beacon / Path... is the path that will be used on the 3rd party packet gated from IS to RF.  The theory is that the path will be set to something reasonable for your RF environment and that same environment is where you're injecting the gated packets.

In APRSIS32, I set the filter to let’s say 20 miles because that’s my direct range.  But that seems to be a disservice to the stations 80 miles away using digi’s, and I’m the closest igate to them.

What "filter" are you setting to 20 miles?  There is no distance filter that affects IS to RF gating.  It is strictly based on "recently" heard "local" where recent defaults to heard in the past 30 minutes and local means no more than 2 used hops in the "closest" received path from a station.  And these are hard-coded and not (yet) user-settable.

That said, you can affect the definition of "used" hops by setting appropriate aliases in Configure / Aliases / Known.  If SSn-N aliases are in use in your area, or any other aliases for that matter, you should have them listed in there so they are not counted as "used", but only the true digipeaters inserting used in the path are counted. 

Am I missing something? I don’t want to increase qrm needlessly, but the hikers, hunters, and off roaders need love too. Thanks!

Set an appropriate path for your IGate based on your local RF environment and you shouldn't be generating QRM.  Unless, of course, you're messing around with the Control-G / Control-I filtered gating of all matching APRS-IS packets to the local RF.  Someone was doing that in New Jersey and I got called out for "pushing" my lightning packets from firenet to their RF!

Note that you do not need any special filter to gate messages from APRS-IS to RF for recently heard local stations.  That is automatically an IGate function in APRSIS32 with the default Port settings for any instance with an RF and -IS port active.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32





Arnold Harding - KQ6DI
 

Justin,
Out of curiosity, what is your call sign?  what is the call sign of the station you’re using, and how do you have it hooked to a radio? These don’t exactly answer your questions but it gives all of us an idea where to start answering?


Arnold. KQ6DI 

On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Justin Cherington <huntjlc@...> wrote:



I’m trying to wrap my head around two way igates and if they generally use digi paths to increase their IS to RF ranges. In the SW we generally have igates in the cities/towns and wide area digi’s in the mountains. 


As a two way igate, if a station 80 miles away (easily just one hop) transmits a message and I gate it, how do I get the response back to that station when the recipient replies? In APRSIS32, I set the filter to let’s say 20 miles because that’s my direct range.  But that seems to be a disservice to the stations 80 miles away using digi’s, and I’m the closest igate to them. 


Am I missing something? I don’t want to increase qrm needlessly, but the hikers, hunters, and off roaders need love too. Thanks! 


Justin Cherington
 

Thanks Lynn! I had a hunch that it probably used the beacon path settings, but then sat here overthinking it. 

 


Justin Cherington
 

hi Arnold, Lynn got me all set with his reply. 


Greg Depew
 

Is there a way for APRSIS32 to respond to messages through the same path as received? What I'm trying to do is get a message back from the internet through my fill in digi. 

I send a message to Wxbot from KB3KBR-11 and -4 digipeats it and then -1 digipeats it too. If I'm outside of the building I'm in i can hear -1 direct and get the message, if I'm inside I can't hear anything except -4. 

What I'm looking for is a way for -1 you send the message back through -4 so -11 can hear it. 
-4 is a fill in only responding to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Justin Cherington <huntjlc@...>
Date: 6/17/20 09:22 (GMT-05:00)
To: APRSISCE@groups.io
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

hi Arnold, Lynn got me all set with his reply. 


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi)

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

First, you don't really want to respond with the "same path as received".  You'll need at least to reverse the path and remove the used bits.  (Yes, programmers tend to be as literal as the computers that we work with all day).

And then you have to decide whether you want to use the reversed aliases from the incoming path or the explicit digipeaters.

Then you realize that aliases mean more than just WIDE1 and WIDE2 in some areas.  So, what's an alias?  (see PS below).

And finally you realize that some digipeaters don't insert there callsign into the path, and others might remove the alias that they consumed, and yet other digipeaters completely replace the original path with their own callsign and what's left of the alias.

So it really is unfeasible if not impossible to generically determine the "reverse" path to use for a message response.  And I didn't even mention the issues that come up with "Proportional Pathing" where a station rotates through different paths for different packets, so which one do you use?  And don't say "the one that brought the inbound message", because the first message gated to a station may be an unsolicited one from some -IS-remote station.  It might not be a reply that we're gating.

But if you provide the information requested above, we might be able to assist in setting a good path for your IGate to use, or provide an explanation as to your issue of receiving packets while indoors.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  See the Configure / Aliases menu on your IGate (presuming that you actually run APRSIS32 on the IGate) and check Configure / Aliases / Accumulate if it isn't already checked.  That will cause it to start populating the Configure / Aliases / Possible over time.  If you have Accumulate checked, you should also get a bunch of new Alias* trace logs that, if enabled, can provide an insight into what APRSIS32 is doing with Alias detection.

Aliases listed in Configure / Aliases / Known are not counted against the "used hop count" for determining "local" as well as putting the used hop count in the packet scroller.  They also won't show up as the digipeater or IGate which delivered the packet to the IGate or instance.

So, if you're using Configure / Scroller / IGate/Digi to see the station that you copied a packet from and are seeing some local alias (WIDE is pre-defined in Known, IIRC), then add that alias via Configure / Aliases / Known / New (or select it in Possible if it is there), and make it a known alias so that APRSIS32 will see the digipeater before the alias to put into the first column of the packet scroller.

Oh, and the timestamp beside the aliases in both Known and Possible are the time since that alias was detected in any processed packet.

Finally, the Configure / Aliases / Unused-0 shows those detected aliases that were seen without a used bit and without a -SSID meaning the remaining hop count was zero but yet the alias was not marked used.  The source callsign-SSD of the packet containing such an alias as well as the detected station type of that callsign-SSID are included so that you can go back to the raw packets and see what is going on. 

Consider the following packets with trailing unused -0 aliases:

MDAAOC-1>SYPY8R,N3KTX-2*,MD2,qAR,W3KIT-10:'hAJl o/]147.075MHz T107 +060de W3AAC=
KB6YTD-3>APN391,K6CDF-3*,NCA1,qAR,K6CDF-5:!4039.53N112313.17W#PHG4810/ Fill-in
K7D3>APTW14,K8COP-3*,MI3,qAR,DANSVL:!4352.60N/08550.95W_ KD8EHO Baldwin Airport, Lake Co., MI. Weather
UNION>APN391,W7MOT-3*,AZ2,qAR,N7SU-10:!3424.86NS11224.25W#PHG7830/SAR DIGI  JEEP POSSEPRESCOTT  KB6TWC    7900FT
OH64K-4>APRX29,OH9RDB*,TRACE2,qAR,SK2DR-10:)Ahma!/-#xQTOEe-{3CQRP station 129 17241 51.2C 11.85W 11.96V 50%|!/.(.]!Q!!!!"1|
KI7YEY-9>SR1VYR,N7HND*,WIDE2,qAO,WB7QMR-10:`'Xbn7Wj/]";N}=
K3MLS-9>S9TX7Q,W3UD-3*,WIDE1,WIDE2-1,qAR,W2MMD-13:`gV' Sak/]"5f}146.985MHz T100 -060Monitoring 146.520=
IW9GDC-6>APNBCN,IR8DA*,WIDE1,WIDE2-2,qAO,IW9GDC-10:!3808.50N/01530.31Er/A=001400Next Generation Beacon 50.006 MHz JM78SD
F5VO>APRS,F8KSM-3*,WIDE2,qAR,F1EFQ-10:Software: UISS 5.4.2
ERINB>APN383,N7ER-10*,WIDE3,qAR,KB7WSD:$ULTW00000000021F01D527B1FFF4901F0001----00AA015900000000
CDS>APN391,WALSH*,BORGER*,WIDE4,qAR,KD5ROK:!3426.19nN10013.37w#PHG7430/W3,WTX DE NL7C nl7c@...

The real question is did the originating station do it or did the digipeater not put the used bit (*) on the used up path component?  Only people local to those stations and/or digipeaters will ever know for sure...


On 6/18/2020 11:06 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Is there a way for APRSIS32 to respond to messages through the same path as received? What I'm trying to do is get a message back from the internet through my fill in digi. 

I send a message to Wxbot from KB3KBR-11 and -4 digipeats it and then -1 digipeats it too. If I'm outside of the building I'm in i can hear -1 direct and get the message, if I'm inside I can't hear anything except -4. 

What I'm looking for is a way for -1 you send the message back through -4 so -11 can hear it. 
-4 is a fill in only responding to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Justin Cherington <huntjlc@...>
Date: 6/17/20 09:22 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

hi Arnold, Lynn got me all set with his reply. 


Max
 

That is a setting at the igate that is doing the reverse gating. I run APRX and it definitely has a setting for the # of hops for messages had such. You are at the mercy of the infrastructure around you. You would need to talk to the owner of the digi-1 and have them increase the number of hops on reverse igated messages.

Max KG4PID

On Thursday, June 18, 2020, 10:06:37 PM CDT, Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:


Is there a way for APRSIS32 to respond to messages through the same path as received? What I'm trying to do is get a message back from the internet through my fill in digi. 

I send a message to Wxbot from KB3KBR-11 and -4 digipeats it and then -1 digipeats it too. If I'm outside of the building I'm in i can hear -1 direct and get the message, if I'm inside I can't hear anything except -4. 

What I'm looking for is a way for -1 you send the message back through -4 so -11 can hear it. 
-4 is a fill in only responding to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Justin Cherington <huntjlc@...>
Date: 6/17/20 09:22 (GMT-05:00)
To: APRSISCE@groups.io
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

hi Arnold, Lynn got me all set with his reply. 


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

You are correct that it is a setting on the igate doing the reverse gating, but talking to the owner of digi-1 won't do you any good because digipeaters can't (or shouldn't) increase the number of hops on any packet.

You need to talk to the IGate operator and have them set the path for -IS to RF gated (hopefully) 3rd party packets to get good coverage in the local RF environment.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

On 6/19/2020 10:51 AM, Max via groups.io wrote:
That is a setting at the igate that is doing the reverse gating. I run APRX and it definitely has a setting for the # of hops for messages had such. You are at the mercy of the infrastructure around you. You would need to talk to the owner of the digi-1 and have them increase the number of hops on reverse igated messages.

Max KG4PID

On Thursday, June 18, 2020, 10:06:37 PM CDT, Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:


Is there a way for APRSIS32 to respond to messages through the same path as received? What I'm trying to do is get a message back from the internet through my fill in digi. 

I send a message to Wxbot from KB3KBR-11 and -4 digipeats it and then -1 digipeats it too. If I'm outside of the building I'm in i can hear -1 direct and get the message, if I'm inside I can't hear anything except -4. 

What I'm looking for is a way for -1 you send the message back through -4 so -11 can hear it. 
-4 is a fill in only responding to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Justin Cherington <huntjlc@...>
Date: 6/17/20 09:22 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

hi Arnold, Lynn got me all set with his reply. 


Greg Depew
 

See below



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>
Date: 6/19/20 09:31 (GMT-05:00)
To: APRSISCE@groups.io
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

First, you don't really want to respond with the "same path as received".  You'll need at least to reverse the path and remove the used bits.  (Yes, programmers tend to be as literal as the computers that we work with all day).

And then you have to decide whether you want to use the reversed aliases from the incoming path or the explicit digipeaters.

Then you realize that aliases mean more than just WIDE1 and WIDE2 in some areas.  So, what's an alias?  (see PS below).

And finally you realize that some digipeaters don't insert there callsign into the path, and others might remove the alias that they consumed, and yet other digipeaters completely replace the original path with their own callsign and what's left of the alias.

So it really is unfeasible if not impossible to generically determine the "reverse" path to use for a message response.  And I didn't even mention the issues that come up with "Proportional Pathing" where a station rotates through different paths for different packets, so which one do you use?  And don't say "the one that brought the inbound message", because the first message gated to a station may be an unsolicited one from some -IS-remote station.  It might not be a reply that we're gating.

But if you provide the information requested above, we might be able to assist in setting a good path for your IGate to use, or provide an explanation as to your issue of receiving packets while indoors.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  See the Configure / Aliases menu on your IGate (presuming that you actually run APRSIS32 on the IGate) and check Configure / Aliases / Accumulate if it isn't already checked.  That will cause it to start populating the Configure / Aliases / Possible over time.  If you have Accumulate checked, you should also get a bunch of new Alias* trace logs that, if enabled, can provide an insight into what APRSIS32 is doing with Alias detection.

Aliases listed in Configure / Aliases / Known are not counted against the "used hop count" for determining "local" as well as putting the used hop count in the packet scroller.  They also won't show up as the digipeater or IGate which delivered the packet to the IGate or instance.

So, if you're using Configure / Scroller / IGate/Digi to see the station that you copied a packet from and are seeing some local alias (WIDE is pre-defined in Known, IIRC), then add that alias via Configure / Aliases / Known / New (or select it in Possible if it is there), and make it a known alias so that APRSIS32 will see the digipeater before the alias to put into the first column of the packet scroller.

Oh, and the timestamp beside the aliases in both Known and Possible are the time since that alias was detected in any processed packet.

Finally, the Configure / Aliases / Unused-0 shows those detected aliases that were seen without a used bit and without a -SSID meaning the remaining hop count was zero but yet the alias was not marked used.  The source callsign-SSD of the packet containing such an alias as well as the detected station type of that callsign-SSID are included so that you can go back to the raw packets and see what is going on. 

Consider the following packets with trailing unused -0 aliases:

MDAAOC-1>SYPY8R,N3KTX-2*,MD2,qAR,W3KIT-10:'hAJl o/]147.075MHz T107 +060de W3AAC=
KB6YTD-3>APN391,K6CDF-3*,NCA1,qAR,K6CDF-5:!4039.53N112313.17W#PHG4810/ Fill-in
K7D3>APTW14,K8COP-3*,MI3,qAR,DANSVL:!4352.60N/08550.95W_ KD8EHO Baldwin Airport, Lake Co., MI. Weather
UNION>APN391,W7MOT-3*,AZ2,qAR,N7SU-10:!3424.86NS11224.25W#PHG7830/SAR DIGI  JEEP POSSEPRESCOTT  KB6TWC    7900FT
OH64K-4>APRX29,OH9RDB*,TRACE2,qAR,SK2DR-10:)Ahma!/-#xQTOEe-{3CQRP station 129 17241 51.2C 11.85W 11.96V 50%|!/.(.]!Q!!!!"1|
KI7YEY-9>SR1VYR,N7HND*,WIDE2,qAO,WB7QMR-10:`'Xbn7Wj/]";N}=
K3MLS-9>S9TX7Q,W3UD-3*,WIDE1,WIDE2-1,qAR,W2MMD-13:`gV' Sak/]"5f}146.985MHz T100 -060Monitoring 146.520=
IW9GDC-6>APNBCN,IR8DA*,WIDE1,WIDE2-2,qAO,IW9GDC-10:!3808.50N/01530.31Er/A=001400Next Generation Beacon 50.006 MHz JM78SD
F5VO>APRS,F8KSM-3*,WIDE2,qAR,F1EFQ-10:Software: UISS 5.4.2
ERINB>APN383,N7ER-10*,WIDE3,qAR,KB7WSD:$ULTW00000000021F01D527B1FFF4901F0001----00AA015900000000
CDS>APN391,WALSH*,BORGER*,WIDE4,qAR,KD5ROK:!3426.19nN10013.37w#PHG7430/W3,WTX DE NL7C nl7c@...

The real question is did the originating station do it or did the digipeater not put the used bit (*) on the used up path component?  Only people local to those stations and/or digipeaters will ever know for sure...


On 6/18/2020 11:06 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Is there a way for APRSIS32 to respond to messages through the same path as received? What I'm trying to do is get a message back from the internet through my fill in digi. 

I send a message to Wxbot from KB3KBR-11 and -4 digipeats it and then -1 digipeats it too. If I'm outside of the building I'm in i can hear -1 direct and get the message, if I'm inside I can't hear anything except -4. 

What I'm looking for is a way for -1 you send the message back through -4 so -11 can hear it. 
-4 is a fill in only responding to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Justin Cherington <huntjlc@...>
Date: 6/17/20 09:22 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

hi Arnold, Lynn got me all set with his reply. 


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.


Greg Depew
 

Would it be better for me to change 4 to respond to Wide2-2 or have the 1 the igate put out Wide1-1 and maybe light up digis that are very far away? 

Sometimes I can get into a big digi in Ohio but I can't hear it back on anything but the -1, and I've seen my packets be delayed while they hop through the system on open days then get regated about a min later sometimes in Canada or a different place in Ohio. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>
Date: 6/19/20 19:48 (GMT-05:00)
To: APRSISCE@groups.io
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.


James Ewen
 

A WIDE1-1 digipeater should be a located in an area where the main digipeaters can be heard and copied, but low powered handheld stations can’t get the attention of the main digipeater. A WIDE1-1 digipeater fills in and helps the low powered handheld stations get that first hop into the digipeater network. 

High powered (5 watts or more) mobile stations and fixed stations should never use an outgoing path of WIDE1-1. Digipeaters should be located at sites that provide advantageous coverage of the local area. A digipeater should NEVER EVER use WIDE1-1 as an outgoing path. If a digipeater is located such that it requires help from a home fill-in digipeater to be heard by the main digipeaters, it should shut down and removed from service. It is causing more congestion of the local network than it is helping. 



On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
Would it be better for me to change 4 to respond to Wide2-2 or have the 1 the igate put out Wide1-1 and maybe light up digis that are very far away? 

Sometimes I can get into a big digi in Ohio but I can't hear it back on anything but the -1, and I've seen my packets be delayed while they hop through the system on open days then get regated about a min later sometimes in Canada or a different place in Ohio. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>
Date: 6/19/20 19:48 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.

--
James
VE6SRV


Greg Depew
 

See below



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Date: 6/20/20 20:06 (GMT-05:00)
To: APRSISCE@groups.io
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

A WIDE1-1 digipeater should be a located in an area where the main digipeaters can be heard and copied, but low powered handheld stations can’t get the attention of the main digipeater. A WIDE1-1 digipeater fills in and helps the low powered handheld stations get that first hop into the digipeater network. 

Agree wholeheartedly.

High powered (5 watts or more) mobile stations and fixed stations should never use an outgoing path of WIDE1-1. Digipeaters should be located at sites that provide advantageous coverage of the local area. A digipeater should NEVER EVER use WIDE1-1 as an outgoing path. If a digipeater is located such that it requires help from a home fill-in digipeater to be heard by the main digipeaters, it should shut down and removed from service. It is causing more congestion of the local network than it is helping. 

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. The network around here is almost non existent. My goal (which was solved with Lynn's advice of setting the gate to Wide1-1 to make the fill in pass the traffic back) was to use the fill in mobile in areas where I know the handheld can't get out. I used it in such a way tonight on our local lake using the handheld on the kayak to go back to mobile fill in and get back to the main digigate at my house. Successfully was able to send and receive messages to Wxbot and SMSGATE. 

If there are any other fill ins that my main digigate lights up I don't know where they are. Other than myself, theres only 2 other people running APRS in my county. One is using a deaf tracker and the other is in the process of getting a solar digi setup on his towns water tower which should increase the coverage to most of the southern part of the county. 

Unfortunately my local club has zero interest in APRS and when I approached our repeater guru about getting stuff on our main tower he shot me down with concerns of it desensing the repeater.  I would love to get high sites but not enough intrest has taken hold even after I held a presentation on it a couple years back. 




On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
Would it be better for me to change 4 to respond to Wide2-2 or have the 1 the igate put out Wide1-1 and maybe light up digis that are very far away? 

Sometimes I can get into a big digi in Ohio but I can't hear it back on anything but the -1, and I've seen my packets be delayed while they hop through the system on open days then get regated about a min later sometimes in Canada or a different place in Ohio. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>
Date: 6/19/20 19:48 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.

--
James
VE6SRV


James Ewen
 

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. 

So what you are describing is an area with no digipeater coverage. This is not a location for a fill-in digipeater, this area needs a full digipeater. 

A station operating in this area will not be able to participate in APRS operations on the digipeater network as there is no digipeater network in the area. A fill-in digipeater acts as a one way booster in the digipeater network. It will only ever act upon the first path element of a packet. If you put a fill-in digipeater into an area that is not covered by a main digipeater, then there is no way for any traffic (position reports, or more importantly messages) to get back into the area. 

Stations should never use WIDE1-1 anywhere other than as the first element in their outgoing path. Anyone wanting to get information back to station that only has a fill-in digipeater within range from an area 2 digits away would be forced to use WIDE1–1 As a second path element, which we all know is a very bad thing to do. 

Build the network properly and APRS works great. Build it incorrectly and you can have something that is a waste of time, effort, money, and just generally makes people resort to trying stupid things that cause more problems for everyone. 

James 
VE6SRV


On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:12 PM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
See below



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Date: 6/20/20 20:06 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

A WIDE1-1 digipeater should be a located in an area where the main digipeaters can be heard and copied, but low powered handheld stations can’t get the attention of the main digipeater. A WIDE1-1 digipeater fills in and helps the low powered handheld stations get that first hop into the digipeater network. 

Agree wholeheartedly.

High powered (5 watts or more) mobile stations and fixed stations should never use an outgoing path of WIDE1-1. Digipeaters should be located at sites that provide advantageous coverage of the local area. A digipeater should NEVER EVER use WIDE1-1 as an outgoing path. If a digipeater is located such that it requires help from a home fill-in digipeater to be heard by the main digipeaters, it should shut down and removed from service. It is causing more congestion of the local network than it is helping. 

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. The network around here is almost non existent. My goal (which was solved with Lynn's advice of setting the gate to Wide1-1 to make the fill in pass the traffic back) was to use the fill in mobile in areas where I know the handheld can't get out. I used it in such a way tonight on our local lake using the handheld on the kayak to go back to mobile fill in and get back to the main digigate at my house. Successfully was able to send and receive messages to Wxbot and SMSGATE. 

If there are any other fill ins that my main digigate lights up I don't know where they are. Other than myself, theres only 2 other people running APRS in my county. One is using a deaf tracker and the other is in the process of getting a solar digi setup on his towns water tower which should increase the coverage to most of the southern part of the county. 

Unfortunately my local club has zero interest in APRS and when I approached our repeater guru about getting stuff on our main tower he shot me down with concerns of it desensing the repeater.  I would love to get high sites but not enough intrest has taken hold even after I held a presentation on it a couple years back. 




On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
Would it be better for me to change 4 to respond to Wide2-2 or have the 1 the igate put out Wide1-1 and maybe light up digis that are very far away? 

Sometimes I can get into a big digi in Ohio but I can't hear it back on anything but the -1, and I've seen my packets be delayed while they hop through the system on open days then get regated about a min later sometimes in Canada or a different place in Ohio. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>
Date: 6/19/20 19:48 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.

--
James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV


Greg Depew
 

What I'm saying is there is no network around me except me! That digi 30 miles away sometimes can't get into the network either and may disappear for hours or sometimes days from being on the maps. Unfortunately I don't have the money nor the locations to be able to put up a high level digi like needs to be. For now I'm it. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Date: 6/21/20 02:40 (GMT-05:00)
To: APRSISCE@groups.io
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. 

So what you are describing is an area with no digipeater coverage. This is not a location for a fill-in digipeater, this area needs a full digipeater. 

A station operating in this area will not be able to participate in APRS operations on the digipeater network as there is no digipeater network in the area. A fill-in digipeater acts as a one way booster in the digipeater network. It will only ever act upon the first path element of a packet. If you put a fill-in digipeater into an area that is not covered by a main digipeater, then there is no way for any traffic (position reports, or more importantly messages) to get back into the area. 

Stations should never use WIDE1-1 anywhere other than as the first element in their outgoing path. Anyone wanting to get information back to station that only has a fill-in digipeater within range from an area 2 digits away would be forced to use WIDE1–1 As a second path element, which we all know is a very bad thing to do. 

Build the network properly and APRS works great. Build it incorrectly and you can have something that is a waste of time, effort, money, and just generally makes people resort to trying stupid things that cause more problems for everyone. 

James 
VE6SRV


On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:12 PM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
See below



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Date: 6/20/20 20:06 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

A WIDE1-1 digipeater should be a located in an area where the main digipeaters can be heard and copied, but low powered handheld stations can’t get the attention of the main digipeater. A WIDE1-1 digipeater fills in and helps the low powered handheld stations get that first hop into the digipeater network. 

Agree wholeheartedly.

High powered (5 watts or more) mobile stations and fixed stations should never use an outgoing path of WIDE1-1. Digipeaters should be located at sites that provide advantageous coverage of the local area. A digipeater should NEVER EVER use WIDE1-1 as an outgoing path. If a digipeater is located such that it requires help from a home fill-in digipeater to be heard by the main digipeaters, it should shut down and removed from service. It is causing more congestion of the local network than it is helping. 

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. The network around here is almost non existent. My goal (which was solved with Lynn's advice of setting the gate to Wide1-1 to make the fill in pass the traffic back) was to use the fill in mobile in areas where I know the handheld can't get out. I used it in such a way tonight on our local lake using the handheld on the kayak to go back to mobile fill in and get back to the main digigate at my house. Successfully was able to send and receive messages to Wxbot and SMSGATE. 

If there are any other fill ins that my main digigate lights up I don't know where they are. Other than myself, theres only 2 other people running APRS in my county. One is using a deaf tracker and the other is in the process of getting a solar digi setup on his towns water tower which should increase the coverage to most of the southern part of the county. 

Unfortunately my local club has zero interest in APRS and when I approached our repeater guru about getting stuff on our main tower he shot me down with concerns of it desensing the repeater.  I would love to get high sites but not enough intrest has taken hold even after I held a presentation on it a couple years back. 




On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
Would it be better for me to change 4 to respond to Wide2-2 or have the 1 the igate put out Wide1-1 and maybe light up digis that are very far away? 

Sometimes I can get into a big digi in Ohio but I can't hear it back on anything but the -1, and I've seen my packets be delayed while they hop through the system on open days then get regated about a min later sometimes in Canada or a different place in Ohio. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>
Date: 6/19/20 19:48 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.

--
James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV


Glenn O'Connor
 

Use APRSDroid, to self-report.

 

From: APRSISCE@groups.io <APRSISCE@groups.io> On Behalf Of Greg Depew
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 11:56 AM
To: APRSISCE@groups.io
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

 

What I'm saying is there is no network around me except me! That digi 30 miles away sometimes can't get into the network either and may disappear for hours or sometimes days from being on the maps. Unfortunately I don't have the money nor the locations to be able to put up a high level digi like needs to be. For now I'm it. 

 

 

 

Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>

Date: 6/21/20 02:40 (GMT-05:00)

Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

 

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. 

 

So what you are describing is an area with no digipeater coverage. This is not a location for a fill-in digipeater, this area needs a full digipeater. 

 

A station operating in this area will not be able to participate in APRS operations on the digipeater network as there is no digipeater network in the area. A fill-in digipeater acts as a one way booster in the digipeater network. It will only ever act upon the first path element of a packet. If you put a fill-in digipeater into an area that is not covered by a main digipeater, then there is no way for any traffic (position reports, or more importantly messages) to get back into the area. 

 

Stations should never use WIDE1-1 anywhere other than as the first element in their outgoing path. Anyone wanting to get information back to station that only has a fill-in digipeater within range from an area 2 digits away would be forced to use WIDE1–1 As a second path element, which we all know is a very bad thing to do. 

 

Build the network properly and APRS works great. Build it incorrectly and you can have something that is a waste of time, effort, money, and just generally makes people resort to trying stupid things that cause more problems for everyone. 

 

James 

VE6SRV

 

 

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:12 PM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:

See below

 

 

 

Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>

Date: 6/20/20 20:06 (GMT-05:00)

Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

 

A WIDE1-1 digipeater should be a located in an area where the main digipeaters can be heard and copied, but low powered handheld stations can’t get the attention of the main digipeater. A WIDE1-1 digipeater fills in and helps the low powered handheld stations get that first hop into the digipeater network. 

 

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

High powered (5 watts or more) mobile stations and fixed stations should never use an outgoing path of WIDE1-1. Digipeaters should be located at sites that provide advantageous coverage of the local area. A digipeater should NEVER EVER use WIDE1-1 as an outgoing path. If a digipeater is located such that it requires help from a home fill-in digipeater to be heard by the main digipeaters, it should shut down and removed from service. It is causing more congestion of the local network than it is helping. 

 

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. The network around here is almost non existent. My goal (which was solved with Lynn's advice of setting the gate to Wide1-1 to make the fill in pass the traffic back) was to use the fill in mobile in areas where I know the handheld can't get out. I used it in such a way tonight on our local lake using the handheld on the kayak to go back to mobile fill in and get back to the main digigate at my house. Successfully was able to send and receive messages to Wxbot and SMSGATE. 

 

If there are any other fill ins that my main digigate lights up I don't know where they are. Other than myself, theres only 2 other people running APRS in my county. One is using a deaf tracker and the other is in the process of getting a solar digi setup on his towns water tower which should increase the coverage to most of the southern part of the county. 

 

Unfortunately my local club has zero interest in APRS and when I approached our repeater guru about getting stuff on our main tower he shot me down with concerns of it desensing the repeater.  I would love to get high sites but not enough intrest has taken hold even after I held a presentation on it a couple years back. 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:

Would it be better for me to change 4 to respond to Wide2-2 or have the 1 the igate put out Wide1-1 and maybe light up digis that are very far away? 

 

Sometimes I can get into a big digi in Ohio but I can't hear it back on anything but the -1, and I've seen my packets be delayed while they hop through the system on open days then get regated about a min later sometimes in Canada or a different place in Ohio. 

 

 

 

Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>

Date: 6/19/20 19:48 (GMT-05:00)

Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

 

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:

Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.

--

James
VE6SRV

--

James
VE6SRV


James Ewen
 

Greg,

There’s a way to make things happen. You just go out and do it. 

Back in the late 90’s I wanted to get into APRS. I talked to a few buddies about it, and we all thought it would be interesting. But there was no APRS digipeaters around. The closest digi was 200 miles to the south. 

So I grabbed my old Kantronics KAM, figured out how to format a position packet (with much assistance from VE6SZR) and programmed that position packet into my beacon slot, and set the KAM to beacon every three minutes. Boom! First APRS station on the air in the Edmonton area. 

A couple days later VE6BCA configured his KPC-3 to act as a digi. Boom! First digi in Edmonton. It was just at a house on a 30 foot mast, but it was on the air, and my packets were being digipeated. 

Sometimes you just have to do it yourself. All of the digipeaters in Northern Alberta have been put in place by individuals. No club affiliation or support for just about all of them. Sometimes it is just easier to stay away from the politics that clubs can create and just get after it.  

So, if you have a station at your house, you could set it up as a digipeater. If it’s the only digipeater in the area, set it up as a full digi. If you have internet access and can do so, tie it into your digi and make it an I-gate as well. 

If at some point you can get a better spot and equipment, install a digi where it has advantageous coverage of your area. 

If people complain that “Nobody is doing anything around here.”, that means they are also part of the nobody. 

This really isn’t directly aimed at you Greg, but more of a generic discussion for anyone in a similar situation. You’ve just spurred me into responding. I’m not trying to call you out or anything. 

At some point if you realize you need to take the initiative, that group of “nobody”s looses a member, and things start to happen in your area. 

It can be a fair bit of work to start making things happen. It helps if you can find a couple people with a similar mindset. 

I was lucky to have a couple buddies that I could convince to join me on my projects. 

We started and built out the local APRS network. We built half a dozen HamHUDs so we could have mobile stations before Kenwood even thought of making the D700. We built payloads and launched dozens of high altitude balloons. 

I also agitate and get people working on other projects in other hobbies that I participate in. I do all of that because I’m selfish. I want to be able to play with stuff and have things that weren't here before. 

It can be difficult, if not impossible to do it alone, so find at least one other person that shares your interest, cultivate a friendship, and get after it. 

Nobody is going to do it unless somebody takes the initiative. 

Be a somebody, not a nobody. 

This now concludes my motivational speech for today! 😀

James 
VE6SRV

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 10:56 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
What I'm saying is there is no network around me except me! That digi 30 miles away sometimes can't get into the network either and may disappear for hours or sometimes days from being on the maps. Unfortunately I don't have the money nor the locations to be able to put up a high level digi like needs to be. For now I'm it. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Date: 6/21/20 02:40 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. 

So what you are describing is an area with no digipeater coverage. This is not a location for a fill-in digipeater, this area needs a full digipeater. 

A station operating in this area will not be able to participate in APRS operations on the digipeater network as there is no digipeater network in the area. A fill-in digipeater acts as a one way booster in the digipeater network. It will only ever act upon the first path element of a packet. If you put a fill-in digipeater into an area that is not covered by a main digipeater, then there is no way for any traffic (position reports, or more importantly messages) to get back into the area. 

Stations should never use WIDE1-1 anywhere other than as the first element in their outgoing path. Anyone wanting to get information back to station that only has a fill-in digipeater within range from an area 2 digits away would be forced to use WIDE1–1 As a second path element, which we all know is a very bad thing to do. 

Build the network properly and APRS works great. Build it incorrectly and you can have something that is a waste of time, effort, money, and just generally makes people resort to trying stupid things that cause more problems for everyone. 

James 
VE6SRV


On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:12 PM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
See below



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Date: 6/20/20 20:06 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

A WIDE1-1 digipeater should be a located in an area where the main digipeaters can be heard and copied, but low powered handheld stations can’t get the attention of the main digipeater. A WIDE1-1 digipeater fills in and helps the low powered handheld stations get that first hop into the digipeater network. 

Agree wholeheartedly.

High powered (5 watts or more) mobile stations and fixed stations should never use an outgoing path of WIDE1-1. Digipeaters should be located at sites that provide advantageous coverage of the local area. A digipeater should NEVER EVER use WIDE1-1 as an outgoing path. If a digipeater is located such that it requires help from a home fill-in digipeater to be heard by the main digipeaters, it should shut down and removed from service. It is causing more congestion of the local network than it is helping. 

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. The network around here is almost non existent. My goal (which was solved with Lynn's advice of setting the gate to Wide1-1 to make the fill in pass the traffic back) was to use the fill in mobile in areas where I know the handheld can't get out. I used it in such a way tonight on our local lake using the handheld on the kayak to go back to mobile fill in and get back to the main digigate at my house. Successfully was able to send and receive messages to Wxbot and SMSGATE. 

If there are any other fill ins that my main digigate lights up I don't know where they are. Other than myself, theres only 2 other people running APRS in my county. One is using a deaf tracker and the other is in the process of getting a solar digi setup on his towns water tower which should increase the coverage to most of the southern part of the county. 

Unfortunately my local club has zero interest in APRS and when I approached our repeater guru about getting stuff on our main tower he shot me down with concerns of it desensing the repeater.  I would love to get high sites but not enough intrest has taken hold even after I held a presentation on it a couple years back. 




On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
Would it be better for me to change 4 to respond to Wide2-2 or have the 1 the igate put out Wide1-1 and maybe light up digis that are very far away? 

Sometimes I can get into a big digi in Ohio but I can't hear it back on anything but the -1, and I've seen my packets be delayed while they hop through the system on open days then get regated about a min later sometimes in Canada or a different place in Ohio. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>
Date: 6/19/20 19:48 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.

--
James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV


Greg Depew
 

See below, again


From: APRSISCE@groups.io <APRSISCE@groups.io> on behalf of James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 1:35 PM
To: APRSISCE@groups.io <APRSISCE@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths
 
Greg,

There’s a way to make things happen. You just go out and do it. 

Back in the late 90’s I wanted to get into APRS. I talked to a few buddies about it, and we all thought it would be interesting. But there was no APRS digipeaters around. The closest digi was 200 miles to the south. 

So I grabbed my old Kantronics KAM, figured out how to format a position packet (with much assistance from VE6SZR) and programmed that position packet into my beacon slot, and set the KAM to beacon every three minutes. Boom! First APRS station on the air in the Edmonton area. 

A couple days later VE6BCA configured his KPC-3 to act as a digi. Boom! First digi in Edmonton. It was just at a house on a 30 foot mast, but it was on the air, and my packets were being digipeated. 

Sometimes you just have to do it yourself. All of the digipeaters in Northern Alberta have been put in place by individuals. No club affiliation or support for just about all of them. Sometimes it is just easier to stay away from the politics that clubs can create and just get after it.  

So, if you have a station at your house, you could set it up as a digipeater. If it’s the only digipeater in the area, set it up as a full digi. If you have internet access and can do so, tie it into your digi and make it an I-gate as well. 

I do have a home station and its setup as a wide 2 digi and I-gate, and has been for about 10 years now. 

If at some point you can get a better spot and equipment, install a digi where it has advantageous coverage of your area. 

If people complain that “Nobody is doing anything around here.”, that means they are also part of the nobody. 

​Unfortunately there really is nobody to complain! Just me! 😄

This really isn’t directly aimed at you Greg, but more of a generic discussion for anyone in a similar situation. You’ve just spurred me into responding. I’m not trying to call you out or anything. 

​Not feeling called out, just pointing out in my previous messages that I am the only one with interest around here other than the other 2 one of which has no interest in building out the network, just using his deaf tracker for events outside of our area that actually has network coverage. Ironic right?

The other fellow I mentioned is working slowing at getting some network stuff going as I said before about getting it up on his local water tower. As long as his install meets his expectations, I believe he's going to invest more into getting more digis up in the area.  He's setting up one of the Tiny Trak Ready to Go boxes on the tower and its going to strictly solar powered. As long as everything goes right I may be able to convince him and our club to put one on our northern most repeater. 

At some point if you realize you need to take the initiative, that group of “nobody”s looses a member, and things start to happen in your area. 

​Hence why I was trying to get my mobile fill-in to send the messages back!

It can be a fair bit of work to start making things happen. It helps if you can find a couple people with a similar mindset. 

I was lucky to have a couple buddies that I could convince to join me on my projects. 

We started and built out the local APRS network. We built half a dozen HamHUDs so we could have mobile stations before Kenwood even thought of making the D700. We built payloads and launched dozens of high altitude balloons. 

I also agitate and get people working on other projects in other hobbies that I participate in. I do all of that because I’m selfish. I want to be able to play with stuff and have things that weren't here before. 

It can be difficult, if not impossible to do it alone, so find at least one other person that shares your interest, cultivate a friendship, and get after it. 

Nobody is going to do it unless somebody takes the initiative. 

Be a somebody, not a nobody. 

This now concludes my motivational speech for today! 😀

James 
VE6SRV

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 10:56 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
What I'm saying is there is no network around me except me! That digi 30 miles away sometimes can't get into the network either and may disappear for hours or sometimes days from being on the maps. Unfortunately I don't have the money nor the locations to be able to put up a high level digi like needs to be. For now I'm it. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Date: 6/21/20 02:40 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. 

So what you are describing is an area with no digipeater coverage. This is not a location for a fill-in digipeater, this area needs a full digipeater. 

A station operating in this area will not be able to participate in APRS operations on the digipeater network as there is no digipeater network in the area. A fill-in digipeater acts as a one way booster in the digipeater network. It will only ever act upon the first path element of a packet. If you put a fill-in digipeater into an area that is not covered by a main digipeater, then there is no way for any traffic (position reports, or more importantly messages) to get back into the area. 

Stations should never use WIDE1-1 anywhere other than as the first element in their outgoing path. Anyone wanting to get information back to station that only has a fill-in digipeater within range from an area 2 digits away would be forced to use WIDE1–1 As a second path element, which we all know is a very bad thing to do. 

Build the network properly and APRS works great. Build it incorrectly and you can have something that is a waste of time, effort, money, and just generally makes people resort to trying stupid things that cause more problems for everyone. 

James 
VE6SRV


On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:12 PM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
See below



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
Date: 6/20/20 20:06 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

A WIDE1-1 digipeater should be a located in an area where the main digipeaters can be heard and copied, but low powered handheld stations can’t get the attention of the main digipeater. A WIDE1-1 digipeater fills in and helps the low powered handheld stations get that first hop into the digipeater network. 

Agree wholeheartedly.

High powered (5 watts or more) mobile stations and fixed stations should never use an outgoing path of WIDE1-1. Digipeaters should be located at sites that provide advantageous coverage of the local area. A digipeater should NEVER EVER use WIDE1-1 as an outgoing path. If a digipeater is located such that it requires help from a home fill-in digipeater to be heard by the main digipeaters, it should shut down and removed from service. It is causing more congestion of the local network than it is helping. 

While true the nearest permanent digi near me is 30 miles away and a mobile can't hit it unless it's about 15 miles away. I can't even reliably get into any of the digis in the area with the home station. The network around here is almost non existent. My goal (which was solved with Lynn's advice of setting the gate to Wide1-1 to make the fill in pass the traffic back) was to use the fill in mobile in areas where I know the handheld can't get out. I used it in such a way tonight on our local lake using the handheld on the kayak to go back to mobile fill in and get back to the main digigate at my house. Successfully was able to send and receive messages to Wxbot and SMSGATE. 

If there are any other fill ins that my main digigate lights up I don't know where they are. Other than myself, theres only 2 other people running APRS in my county. One is using a deaf tracker and the other is in the process of getting a solar digi setup on his towns water tower which should increase the coverage to most of the southern part of the county. 

Unfortunately my local club has zero interest in APRS and when I approached our repeater guru about getting stuff on our main tower he shot me down with concerns of it desensing the repeater.  I would love to get high sites but not enough intrest has taken hold even after I held a presentation on it a couple years back. 




On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:44 AM Greg Depew <goatherder_4891@...> wrote:
Would it be better for me to change 4 to respond to Wide2-2 or have the 1 the igate put out Wide1-1 and maybe light up digis that are very far away? 

Sometimes I can get into a big digi in Ohio but I can't hear it back on anything but the -1, and I've seen my packets be delayed while they hop through the system on open days then get regated about a min later sometimes in Canada or a different place in Ohio. 



Greg KB3KBR Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...>
Date: 6/19/20 19:48 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Igates and their use of digi paths

On 6/19/2020 6:38 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
Can you give a more complete description of what all is involved?

KB3KBR-11 is what station?  Software, TNC and radio please.

11 is a Yaesu Ft1d

Same for -4 (a WIDE1-1 digi) 

4 is a fill in digi , TinyTrak 4 with GPS and and FT 8800 in a go box programmed to only respond to Wide1-1 and it's own callsign 

Same for -1 (presumably a WIDE2 digi)

1 is APRSIS32 via sound card Signal link into an Ftm 350and is an igate and digi that responds to Wide1-1 and Wide2-2 

Same for the IGate and please include callsign-SSID with the other 3 pieces of the puzzle.

And some idea of who can copy who directly.  Can -1 copy the IGate directly or does the IGate need the boost from -4 to get to -1?  

1 is the igate, 4 is my mobile fill in that I'm using to get 11 back to the igate 

You've already mentioned that you can't hear -1 indoors, but only -4.  Can you copy the IGate indoors?  

When I'm at work inside our 911 center our grounding halo blocks just about everything. 4 is sitting in the truck in the parking lot and can hear 1 and 11. 11 can only hear 1 if it's out side and its iffy if 1 can hear 11 without either holding the antenna in the or more power.

If not, then can we assume the IGate is actually remote from your QTH, but -1 is local?

So, with that final line, it would seem that if you're IGate is using a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path, then -4 will copy it and repeat it locally so that -11 can copy the response at the 911 center.  Without the WIDE1-1, -4 won't digipeat and -11 won't copy it.

The big issue you have is that the -11 HT can't copy the IGate directly when at the 911 center, and apparently there's no bigger digipeater that will digipeat the IGate and be copied by the -11 HT.  No amount of pathing is going to solve an issue of a marginal receiver (the HT) at some distance from the IGate without strong coverage.

But a WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 path on the IGate should trigger the -4 digipeater to deliver a stronger packet to the HT.

Anyone have any better suggestion?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  An external antenna that you can connect to the HT inside the 911 center would likely also solve your issue.  Apparently the -4 has bigger ears than the HT or it wouldn't copy the IGate while sitting in the parking lot.

--
James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Michael Alirez
 

Awesome motivational speech. Have a great day all.
Michael (KN6EHB)

I’m also running an igate here in the city of Monrovia California. 73’s