[Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]


Rick
 

If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Rick
 

Hi Lynn
I use Byonics TT4 in kiss, and yes l am running aprsis32, doing the digi.
Rick

On October 26, 2021 09:13:11 "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Rob Giuliano
 

It appears to me that most of the packets that are marked with this message are being heard and "logged" more directly than the DIGI'ed.

2021-10-24 21:16:15 EDT: KD4KBO-9>APT314,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,qAO,KD4DRA-1:                                                                 /011613h3442.27N/08215.48Wk142/006/A=000889|!,&9|!w/A!

2021-10-24 21:16:50 EDT: KD4KBO-9>APT314,                                       KD4DRA-1,WIDE1,NC4HC-15,WIDE2*,qAR,KI4M-1:/011613h3442.27N/08215.48Wk142/006/A=000889|!,&9|!w/A! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]

KD4DRA-1 seems to gate the packet, and also DIGI it.  It then appears to arrive after a couple of DIGI hops: NC4HC-15 and KI4M-1 about 35 seconds later as a dupe.

Rob KB8RCO


James Ewen
 

The best way to track down delayed packets is to turn on the time stamps at the originating station so you get a clear picture of when the packets were sent from the origin station. You can then look at the time stamp on the packets as they are handled by various stations and can readily observe the delay. 

The KPC-3+ is known to have an issue with delaying packets. However this is only observable by looking at packets sent by others that are handled by the offending KPC-3+ from another receiving station. 

Observation of on air packets will make the issue much more readily observable as all packets in range will be seen, and not just the severely filtered subset found on the APRS-IS backbone. 

If you change the output on aprs.fi to decoded, you will be able to see the telemetry sequence number as a start with the existing packets, giving you a little more information. 

Once you identify the offending station, the hard part begins, trying to convince the operator that their station is causing the issue. They will argue that their packets from there station are perfectly fine, and they see no issue. It has to be the other station that has a problem. 

Good luck with your efforts. 



On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 07:18 Rick <kd4dra@...> wrote:
Hi Lynn
I use Byonics TT4 in kiss, and yes l am running aprsis32, doing the digi.
Rick

On October 26, 2021 09:13:11 "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra

--
James
VE6SRV


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

Looking at the decoded raw packets for KD4KBO-0 to see the telemetry sequence number, it certainly appears that NC4HC-15 is delaying the digipeat of packets.  All of the duplicate sequences that I saw involved NC4HC-15 as a digipeater and various IGates handling the packet after that, which would tend to eliminate the IGate as the issue and focus solely on NC4HC-15.

NC4HC-15 is using >APNX01 as the Tocall which translates to a TNC-X.  I'm not familiar with that particular TNC to know if it can do digipeating internally or if it relies on a connected PC to do digipeating, but that sure would be where I would look next.  Especially if you can get a look at the packets being received and when they are subsequently retransmitted by the digipeater.  Hearing what the digipeater hears may be difficult given its claimed 1,280 foot HAAT.

But then, if you could get access to the Bearwallow Mountain Firewatch Tower, you might be able to copy some of what NC4HC-15 is hearing and when the digipeat of those heard packets occur.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 9:18 AM, Rick wrote:
Hi Lynn
I use Byonics TT4 in kiss, and yes l am running aprsis32, doing the digi.
Rick

On October 26, 2021 09:13:11 "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Rob Giuliano
 

The TNC-X is the original (John Hanson of Coastal ChipWorks) version of the MFJ-1270X.
The base version required an attached computer.
As far as I know, the base version would NOT have any way of adding/sending APNX01.

Coastal ChipWorks also sold an X-DIGI board to install inside the TNC-X which would allow DIGI without an attached computer.
So, if the unit is identifying with APNX01, it must be set by the X-DIGI board, or computer client application.
I do not know if MFJ offers the daughter board.

NOTE: KB8RCO(-0) is currently running with a Coastal ChipWorks TNC-X and identifies as APWW11.

I have another TNC-X and an X-DIGI daughter board (not currently installed).  I will have to take a look at the settings.
Mine are pretty close to the originals (long before MFJ).

Robert Giuliano
KB8RCO



On Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:57:30 AM EDT, Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...> wrote:


Looking at the decoded raw packets for KD4KBO-0 to see the telemetry sequence number, it certainly appears that NC4HC-15 is delaying the digipeat of packets.  All of the duplicate sequences that I saw involved NC4HC-15 as a digipeater and various IGates handling the packet after that, which would tend to eliminate the IGate as the issue and focus solely on NC4HC-15.

NC4HC-15 is using >APNX01 as the Tocall which translates to a TNC-X.  I'm not familiar with that particular TNC to know if it can do digipeating internally or if it relies on a connected PC to do digipeating, but that sure would be where I would look next.  Especially if you can get a look at the packets being received and when they are subsequently retransmitted by the digipeater.  Hearing what the digipeater hears may be difficult given its claimed 1,280 foot HAAT.

But then, if you could get access to the Bearwallow Mountain Firewatch Tower, you might be able to copy some of what NC4HC-15 is hearing and when the digipeat of those heard packets occur.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 9:18 AM, Rick wrote:
Hi Lynn
I use Byonics TT4 in kiss, and yes l am running aprsis32, doing the digi.
Rick

On October 26, 2021 09:13:11 "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Don Rolph
 

The TNC-X is a simple kiss TNC.  It can not do digipeating directly.  There is a daughter board which can provide digipeating, but it is limited to I believe a buffer of only four packets.

So if this is a TNC-X, it either has software behind it or the daughter board.


On Oct 26, 2021, at 9:57 AM, Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...> wrote:



Looking at the decoded raw packets for KD4KBO-0 to see the telemetry sequence number, it certainly appears that NC4HC-15 is delaying the digipeat of packets.  All of the duplicate sequences that I saw involved NC4HC-15 as a digipeater and various IGates handling the packet after that, which would tend to eliminate the IGate as the issue and focus solely on NC4HC-15.

NC4HC-15 is using >APNX01 as the Tocall which translates to a TNC-X.  I'm not familiar with that particular TNC to know if it can do digipeating internally or if it relies on a connected PC to do digipeating, but that sure would be where I would look next.  Especially if you can get a look at the packets being received and when they are subsequently retransmitted by the digipeater.  Hearing what the digipeater hears may be difficult given its claimed 1,280 foot HAAT.

But then, if you could get access to the Bearwallow Mountain Firewatch Tower, you might be able to copy some of what NC4HC-15 is hearing and when the digipeat of those heard packets occur.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 9:18 AM, Rick wrote:
Hi Lynn
I use Byonics TT4 in kiss, and yes l am running aprsis32, doing the digi.
Rick

On October 26, 2021 09:13:11 "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Rob Giuliano
 

It appears MFG does offer the X-Digi addon board as MFJ-1270DG.

The X-Digi daughter board "Beacon" menu does have an option for the Destination Call.  According to the manual I have (again - very old documentation around 2005) the default was APRS.  I found a document online at http://www.tnc-x.com/xdigi (NOTE: left over subpage that is no longer referenced from the main page).  The 2017 document shows APRS as the destination call in that as well.

Robert Giuliano
KB8RCO



On Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 10:08:32 AM EDT, Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco@...> wrote:


The TNC-X is the original (John Hanson of Coastal ChipWorks) version of the MFJ-1270X.
The base version required an attached computer.
As far as I know, the base version would NOT have any way of adding/sending APNX01.

Coastal ChipWorks also sold an X-DIGI board to install inside the TNC-X which would allow DIGI without an attached computer.
So, if the unit is identifying with APNX01, it must be set by the X-DIGI board, or computer client application.
I do not know if MFJ offers the daughter board.

NOTE: KB8RCO(-0) is currently running with a Coastal ChipWorks TNC-X and identifies as APWW11.

I have another TNC-X and an X-DIGI daughter board (not currently installed).  I will have to take a look at the settings.
Mine are pretty close to the originals (long before MFJ).

Robert Giuliano
KB8RCO



On Tuesday, October 26, 2021, 09:57:30 AM EDT, Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...> wrote:


Looking at the decoded raw packets for KD4KBO-0 to see the telemetry sequence number, it certainly appears that NC4HC-15 is delaying the digipeat of packets.  All of the duplicate sequences that I saw involved NC4HC-15 as a digipeater and various IGates handling the packet after that, which would tend to eliminate the IGate as the issue and focus solely on NC4HC-15.

NC4HC-15 is using >APNX01 as the Tocall which translates to a TNC-X.  I'm not familiar with that particular TNC to know if it can do digipeating internally or if it relies on a connected PC to do digipeating, but that sure would be where I would look next.  Especially if you can get a look at the packets being received and when they are subsequently retransmitted by the digipeater.  Hearing what the digipeater hears may be difficult given its claimed 1,280 foot HAAT.

But then, if you could get access to the Bearwallow Mountain Firewatch Tower, you might be able to copy some of what NC4HC-15 is hearing and when the digipeat of those heard packets occur.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 9:18 AM, Rick wrote:
Hi Lynn
I use Byonics TT4 in kiss, and yes l am running aprsis32, doing the digi.
Rick

On October 26, 2021 09:13:11 "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Rick
 

Thanks James
A question how do I change aprs.fi to see decode?

Rick


Rick
 

Thanks good info
Rick


Rick
 

Thanks everybody for your help, glad to know its not my setup.

73
Rick, kd4dra


Rick
 

Thanks Lynn

I enjoy using the apsis32 program, I remember when it was a baby and we taked alot.

Question about Maps, I lost my map for my screen and only have Gray screen, did I do something wrong,

I was try to use a different map and it didn't work and went back to original and it never showed up.

Thanks for what you do with this Program.

Rick,kd4dra



On 10/26/2021 9:57 AM, Lynn Deffenbaugh wrote:

Looking at the decoded raw packets for KD4KBO-0 to see the telemetry sequence number, it certainly appears that NC4HC-15 is delaying the digipeat of packets.  All of the duplicate sequences that I saw involved NC4HC-15 as a digipeater and various IGates handling the packet after that, which would tend to eliminate the IGate as the issue and focus solely on NC4HC-15.

NC4HC-15 is using >APNX01 as the Tocall which translates to a TNC-X.  I'm not familiar with that particular TNC to know if it can do digipeating internally or if it relies on a connected PC to do digipeating, but that sure would be where I would look next.  Especially if you can get a look at the packets being received and when they are subsequently retransmitted by the digipeater.  Hearing what the digipeater hears may be difficult given its claimed 1,280 foot HAAT.

But then, if you could get access to the Bearwallow Mountain Firewatch Tower, you might be able to copy some of what NC4HC-15 is hearing and when the digipeat of those heard packets occur.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 9:18 AM, Rick wrote:
Hi Lynn
I use Byonics TT4 in kiss, and yes l am running aprsis32, doing the digi.
Rick

On October 26, 2021 09:13:11 "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Rob Giuliano
 

Did you try the arrow keys?
I think left and right arrows.

The up and down are zoom.  Max zoom can also cause the same condition - depending on the maps.
Most often it is contrast (left and right).


On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:41, Rick
<kd4dra@...> wrote:

Thanks Lynn

I enjoy using the apsis32 program, I remember when it was a baby and we taked alot.

Question about Maps, I lost my map for my screen and only have Gray screen, did I do something wrong,

I was try to use a different map and it didn't work and went back to original and it never showed up.

Thanks for what you do with this Program.

Rick,kd4dra



On 10/26/2021 9:57 AM, Lynn Deffenbaugh wrote:

Looking at the decoded raw packets for KD4KBO-0 to see the telemetry sequence number, it certainly appears that NC4HC-15 is delaying the digipeat of packets.  All of the duplicate sequences that I saw involved NC4HC-15 as a digipeater and various IGates handling the packet after that, which would tend to eliminate the IGate as the issue and focus solely on NC4HC-15.

NC4HC-15 is using >APNX01 as the Tocall which translates to a TNC-X.  I'm not familiar with that particular TNC to know if it can do digipeating internally or if it relies on a connected PC to do digipeating, but that sure would be where I would look next.  Especially if you can get a look at the packets being received and when they are subsequently retransmitted by the digipeater.  Hearing what the digipeater hears may be difficult given its claimed 1,280 foot HAAT.

But then, if you could get access to the Bearwallow Mountain Firewatch Tower, you might be able to copy some of what NC4HC-15 is hearing and when the digipeat of those heard packets occur.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 9:18 AM, Rick wrote:
Hi Lynn
I use Byonics TT4 in kiss, and yes l am running aprsis32, doing the digi.
Rick

On October 26, 2021 09:13:11 "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Do you use a KPC-3+ in KISS mode as your TNC and do you have APRSIS32 doing the digipeating?


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Rick wrote:
If you look at the attached screen shot, I would like to figure out
what might be causing this mess I think on of the paths may have a
timimg issue (NC4HC-15) could this the problem?
Thanks
Rick, kd4dra


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

When looking at the raw packets page, change the right-most drop-down.


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 11:32 AM, Rick wrote:
Thanks James
A question how do I change aprs.fi to see decode?

Rick


Rick
 

OK thanks, I'll watch

Rick


On 10/26/2021 1:07 PM, Lynn Deffenbaugh wrote:

When looking at the raw packets page, change the right-most drop-down.


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/26/2021 11:32 AM, Rick wrote:
Thanks James
A question how do I change aprs.fi to see decode?

Rick


Rick
 

This is a follow up to my Problem, I contacted the digi in question and sent some screenshots by email,
it seems today that it is fixed, no reply from the ham tho or yet.
Also the problem with my map not showing on my screen, it was user error, I somehow changed the port setting from 80 to 30,
I noticed it when I visited my .XML file, changed it back to 80 and reloaded APRSIS and POOF, there it was.

Thanks everyone for your help, I remember Lynn saying, ask and post your results someone else may be afraid to ask.
Thanks
73 all
Rick,kd4dra


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

Thank you for closing the loop on this one.  And you might want to keep an eye on the digi issue for the next week or two.  If it is a problem similar to what the KPC-3+ sees, then it will work fine after a simple reset, but will grow steadily worse again over time.  Remember, with the 30 second default dupe suppression timer in the APRS-IS, you likely won't even see the issue until the delayed packets are at least 30 seconds or more later than the initial copy of a packet.

And I really need to migrate the configuration dialogs away from the Windows Mobile form factor so that you will actually be able to SEE the port number in the tile server configuration dialog.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/27/2021 2:19 PM, Rick wrote:
This is a follow up to my Problem, I contacted the digi in question and sent some screenshots by email,
it seems today that it is fixed, no reply from the ham tho or yet.
Also the problem with my map not showing on my screen, it was user error, I somehow changed the port setting from 80 to 30,
I noticed it when I visited my .XML file, changed it back to 80 and reloaded APRSIS and POOF, there it was.

Thanks everyone for your help, I remember Lynn saying, ask and post your results someone else may be afraid to ask.
Thanks
73 all
Rick,kd4dra


Rick
 

Happy it looks like a 30, with that blocked view. 
Thanks 
Rick

On October 27, 2021 2:34:01 PM "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Thank you for closing the loop on this one.  And you might want to keep an eye on the digi issue for the next week or two.  If it is a problem similar to what the KPC-3+ sees, then it will work fine after a simple reset, but will grow steadily worse again over time.  Remember, with the 30 second default dupe suppression timer in the APRS-IS, you likely won't even see the issue until the delayed packets are at least 30 seconds or more later than the initial copy of a packet.

And I really need to migrate the configuration dialogs away from the Windows Mobile form factor so that you will actually be able to SEE the port number in the tile server configuration dialog.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/27/2021 2:19 PM, Rick wrote:
This is a follow up to my Problem, I contacted the digi in question and sent some screenshots by email,
it seems today that it is fixed, no reply from the ham tho or yet.
Also the problem with my map not showing on my screen, it was user error, I somehow changed the port setting from 80 to 30,
I noticed it when I visited my .XML file, changed it back to 80 and reloaded APRSIS and POOF, there it was.

Thanks everyone for your help, I remember Lynn saying, ask and post your results someone else may be afraid to ask.
Thanks
73 all
Rick,kd4dra


Rick
 

Where did happy come from. Big fingers and auto correct


On October 27, 2021 2:40:33 PM "Rick via groups.io" <kd4dra@...> wrote:

Happy it looks like a 30, with that blocked view. 
Thanks 
Rick

On October 27, 2021 2:34:01 PM "Lynn Deffenbaugh" <kj4erj@...> wrote:

Thank you for closing the loop on this one.  And you might want to keep an eye on the digi issue for the next week or two.  If it is a problem similar to what the KPC-3+ sees, then it will work fine after a simple reset, but will grow steadily worse again over time.  Remember, with the 30 second default dupe suppression timer in the APRS-IS, you likely won't even see the issue until the delayed packets are at least 30 seconds or more later than the initial copy of a packet.

And I really need to migrate the configuration dialogs away from the Windows Mobile form factor so that you will actually be able to SEE the port number in the tile server configuration dialog.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 10/27/2021 2:19 PM, Rick wrote:
This is a follow up to my Problem, I contacted the digi in question and sent some screenshots by email,
it seems today that it is fixed, no reply from the ham tho or yet.
Also the problem with my map not showing on my screen, it was user error, I somehow changed the port setting from 80 to 30,
I noticed it when I visited my .XML file, changed it back to 80 and reloaded APRSIS and POOF, there it was.

Thanks everyone for your help, I remember Lynn saying, ask and post your results someone else may be afraid to ask.
Thanks
73 all
Rick,kd4dra