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Audio level from APRSIS too high?
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Appreciate the reply James.
Never meant to pull you into it. Appreciate the suggestions/info. I've returned to my default settings on KB9UZO-12 as it was prior. The software, device etc. were playing "nice" before and adjustments I've made earlier today didn't prove any better or worse.. Having setup, the T3's TX deviation volume, level etc. using the designers 'archaic' means of 'setting' the T3 (As described below. I do not have the specialized deviation meter on hand) I believe the T3 and TM-281 are performing adequately at this point. What direwolf was 'complaining' about seems to be what its deciphering audio as "Too loud" - I adjusted the audio parameters on the PI (running direwolf) and it's no longer 'complaining' about audio levels as it stands now. I have found though the "audio level" that direwolf monitors does not stay constant though as to be expected and even KB9UZO-10's audio levels do move around at time. To be expected... to an extent. Again, it was the recent, sudden message change from direwolf that got me wondering if I goofed up APRSIS (KB9UZO-12) somehow then contemplating whether tuning the HF rig had something to do with it. Lynn confirmed (as have you and others) it was never an APRSIS software "thing" but other factors needed looking into and I *think* I've got it pinned down to direwolf. Much obliged! |
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James Ewen
Now that I'm pulled into this, I went back to look at what the original issue was... KB9UZO-10 running Direwolf is complaining that the digipeater KB9UZO-12 has an audio level that is too high. APRSISCE/32 has nothing to do with this issue. It's an innocent bystander. KB9UZO-10 doesn't complain about everyone, so you can make an assumption that KB9UZO-10 is working properly. So where's the issue? Well, the report is that KB9UZO-12 has a high audio level. One can assume that Direwolf is complaining about high deviation from the KB9UZO0-12 digipeater. You say you adjusted the TX volume on the T3 and also adjusted the volume on the TM-281. When you are playing with an output level, it is generally called the TX deviation. Volume is usually associated with an audio level that is heard with your ears. So, if you were playing with the TX deviation setting on the T3, you were in the right spot. Decrease your TX deviation slightly and observe what Direwolf is telling you. You should see a decrease in the level being received. You do have to watch out for "twist", where the ratio between the high tone and low tone are kept proper. That can be a bit of an issue because what was proper back in the beginning of AFSK signalling has been bastardized by far too many people not knowing the difference between pre/deemphasized audio and flat audio. There's a horribly dog's breakfast of levels out there which causes all kinds of problems and issues. Playing with the RX volume level on the TM-281 will just cause problems for the T3 RX capability. Too high or too low and you won't be able to decode packets. Concentrate your efforts on the T3 deviation settings. Your KB9UZO-10 is reporting its location in the back of a small acreage off Renneberger Rd while KB9UZO-12 is reporting its location in the middle of a field south of Woodmen Rd, 4.5 west of KB9UZO-10. You talk about your home HF station possibly causing issues... Your address at QRZ suggests you live in Peyton, but there is no road by that name in Peyton, and Google Maps points to an address about midway between the two stations in Falcon. The closest APRS station to that house is over a mile away. There is little chance that your HF station is causing issues for a digipeater located a mile away, or causing issues with what a station running Direwolf 4 miles away is hearing. You can take that right out of the mix. James VE6SRV Absolutely James, |
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Absolutely James,
Appreciate the insight! I am pretty sure it is a direwolf... "thing" that is now rectifying itself as I systematically adjust its various audio parameters. The audio/volume from the 281/T3 hadn't been an issue for quite a while on the APRSIS-side of things (and has been reported in the county to be working fine for folks using APRS locally and passing through) and when I would occasionally monitor the remote digi (the raspberry Pi/Direwolf) there were only random messages of "Audio level too high", but it had recently become a normal occurrence. Once I noticed it was happening regularly, I started to question myself as to whether I had done something wrong on the software side. Not the case. I have noticed the direwolf group does at times suggest other software, programs or hardware being fault (which can certainly be the case) more than focusing on T/S'ing issue that *MIGHT* be related to its own... Oh well. That's why I was double checking here. I've been an aircraft mechanic and Boeing certified GENFAM (37,57 and 67) instructor for many years (17+) and I work primarily on the line where we don't have the luxury of having avionics support thus us A/P's (airframe and power plant mechanics) are expected to "know" avionics.... but...that didn't transfer over with all aspect of the radio hobby. haha! (You'd think it would) Turbine engine theory: Suck. Squeeze. Bang and Blow! Appreciate it James! Bryan W |
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Hey Robert!
I did adjust the T3/TM's audio again today but there was no notable change from Direwolfs perspective. The Argent T3's audio setting(s) is pretty 'archaic'. The designer reached out to me years ago when I first bought the T3's and his tone/volume adjustment is as follows: Adjusting its low/high packet tones via "ear" using a receiver until the low tone volume (the most "important" of the two) is slightly higher than the high tone then reducing the volume slightly as a "margin of error"... It's been happily doing its job until recently when the below mentioned issue/question came to light. I do not have a deviation meter on hand but it's something I can acquire if needed. I believe I am getting closer to setting the PI's alsamixer settings to where it's becoming 'happy'. Still not sure what changed in recent days to make me question but whatever it was is now getting a lot better .. from direwolfs perspective. |
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James Ewen
That’s unfortunate that the software that does the audio decoding support group would point you towards the software that has nothing to do with audio as the place to look for support for an audio decoding issue. Sounds like the people I have to deal with at work who will deflect you to half a dozen others until you finally end up back with them, and once all alternate avenues have been exhausted, will reluctantly look at the actual issue, and then provide the simple response you were looking for a week ago. There are some people here that probably have some experience with Direwolf, and they can probably help you out. I have not played with Direwolf at all, so I have no useful information specific to that software. However, the best way to attack a complex issue is to reduce it to small manageable parts. APRSISCE/32 is looking for a simple serial stream of text. Nothing to do with audio at all, so eliminate APRSISCE/32 from the mix. Shut it down, don’t even bother with it. Are you still having issues? If so, APRSISCE/32 is not part of the problem. This allows you to focus your energy on the bits that are the problem. If the issue is with the RX audio level on decode, then you should be looking at the outbound audio from the radio and the input levels on the device that is receiving that audio. I think you had an OT3 in there somewhere. That should be receiving the audio. It should also be decoding the audio and providing a serial text stream that APRSISCE/32 should be listening to. My understanding is that Direwolf is a software modem that would decode audio. I’m not sure where Direwolf would be needed in this configuration. I haven’t payed close attention to the thread however as I don’t have any knowledge of Direwolf, so I am probably missing key information. Just trying to head you towards a better place to ask specific information about a specific product. At the very least, try chopping the problem up into bite sized pieces, and chew on each smaller bit one at a time. That’s the key to solving that which appears to be a huge problem. Maybe my incoherent rambling might make you think about the problem in a slightly different way, and get you on the right path. Sometimes having to break something down to explain it in a way so that someone with no knowledge can understand makes you break the problem down to where you can suddenly see the root cause yourself. I’ve solved a number of issues that had me stumped this way. “No, that’s not how it works, you need to do this, and then it does that and… oh, wait… here’s where it’s broken!” You may just be a “lowly aircraft mechanic” but I bet you would have a far better chance at making a jet engine make that loud “whooshy” noise than I would if it’s broken. You would check to see if fuel is going in the front, and if hot noisy air is coming out the back. If fuel is available, but no hot air is coming out the back, then it’s probably something in between. You just systematically check all the bits in between to find the bit that isn’t doing it’s job. Hope that helps a bit. Well James I was seeking clarification (which Lynn provided) as too whether there might be something I was missing on the hardware side. --
James VE6SRV |
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Rob Giuliano
On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 12:18 PM, Don Rolph wrote: > - one typically can not control the levels from the transmitting sources: typically you do not control hem > - Dire Wolf is in fact by design quite tolerant of widely varying levels I think I would phrase this differently. - True, you cannot control someone else's transmissions that you are receiving. You control the transmit levels of 'your' station to send 'good clear RF'. Many use local signals and adjust their station to sound alike. A deviation meter is always better, but typically not available. If your station's transmissions (say from T3) are reporting the high numbers, you should adjust the transmit audio of that setup. Almost all TNCs have some control for this. - On the receive side, you can control the mic gain, and therefore the audio level of the signal going to Direwolf. Yes, Direwolf has a good range (very tolerant). It even does a good job when the levels are reporting much higher than 100. So, setting the 'average' received signal in the 50 - 60 range works fantastic. I'll bet much better than the T3. So, once that is set, you don't need to tinker. Robert Giuliano |
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Hey Don!
Much obliged, thank you much sir! I did have the remote (Direwolf) humming along just fine with occasional "audio levels too high" messages but all of a sudden, every RX'ed packet on direwolf was showing "audio level too high". I'm a classic overthinker (one of my many faults) so I began to backtrack on what might have caused a change in recent days and all I could think of was the tuning of my HF rig but that wouldn't affect the remote PI w/ direwolf so then I looked at the T3 (APRSIS) logs and found the serial port was disconnecting/reconnecting around the same time I was tuning the HF rig. Wanted to rule out anything with the software side of APRSIS, maybe something I was missing or inadvertently changed. I'll continue experimenting with the alsamixer on the Pi and 'tuning' its volume(s) ** I had also asked some folks on Direwolfs group what their thoughts were, and the reply was, "Its APRSIS" Oh well. Got it the source of the issue figured out, certainly appreciate your guy's help! Bryan W |
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Don Rolph
Some notes: - one typically can not control the levels from the transmitting sources: typically you do not control hem - Dire Wolf is in fact by design quite tolerant of widely varying levels So the goal is to: - adjust the levels so that the loudest stations do not saturate Dire Wolf while the quieter stations are decoded effectively It is trial and error and requires adjustment with alsamixer to achieve a balance here. But fortunately because of John WB2OSZ's design of Dire Wolf, the levels just need to be "close" to appropriate. They have a fair amount of room for variability without affecting the Dire Wolf performance significantly..
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AB1PH Don Rolph |
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Well James I was seeking clarification (which Lynn provided) as too whether there might be something I was missing on the hardware side.
I did post on the direwolf group as well.. they referred me back to APRSIS being "the issue" , "Software implementation/ audio settings" problem. |
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Alrighty-
*Maybe* we're getting somewhere now: Remoted into the PI/dire wolf and experimenting with the alsamixer setting again. Now the volume levels appear to be lowering.    So that much is good, just going to have to find the sweet spot for alsa mixer. Appears for now, the T3/Tm-281 TX volume(s) dont need adjusting. Interesting. Much obliged gents! |
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James Ewen
Since the issue you are having is with Direwolf, you might want to talk to people in a Direwolf forum. Those familiar with the software would be a good resource to check with. Morning Lynn! --
James VE6SRV |
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Morning Lynn!
Much obliged, I figured as such, has got to be an issue with the T3/TM-281 settings. I lowered the TX volume on both (Radio and T3) to see if it made any difference (see above response to Don) The other week direwolf was reporting random "audio high" messages on various packets RX'ed but it wasn't frequently as it is now. I had found that when I was recently re-installing and tuning the HF rig (15/20 meters) that it was interfering with the serial port for the T3/Tm-281/APRSIS and found the USB extension cable didn't have a ferrite so I rearranged the APRS setup here with a different USB cable with a ferrite and the HF rig doesn't appear to be disconnecting the serial port any longer. Obviously, that wouldn't affect the remote raspberry/dire wolf directly but am wondering if the HF rig has affected the TM-281/T3 somehow. I.E affected something "audio related" beyond when it was interfering with that one serial port. Will continue troubleshooting, appreciate you confirming it isn't a software issue nor a setting within the software. |
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Morning Don,
Working on that now. I previously had all the audio settings in alsa mixer set at 70% respectively and direwolf was purring along just fine only occasionally reporting high audio from the APRSIS rig BUT it was doing the same (occasionally) with other RX'ed packets. I am trying to figure out what took place within the last several days that would have "done something", I.E affect one or the other (APRSIS via KB9UZO-12 w/ the Tm-281 and T3) and the remote raspberry pi running direwolf (KB9UZO-10) . The only thing I have done differently recently at the home HQ is finally get my HF setup, an IC-746 up and running w/ its dipole dummy-loading (tuning) at 30 watts. I am wondering if the HF rig over-modulated the computer, T3/TM-281 ... or otherwise interfered with the T3. Nothing is impossible BUT as I am looking through the T3 logs, I have found several instances where I see the COM port for APRSIS was disconnected/connected during the approx time that I was tuning the HF rig (on dummy load) .... hmmm. I was tuning the dipole on 20 meters and 15 meters. This AM I checked all my ferrites on the computer/radios and found the USB extension to the Tm-281/T3 did not have a choke on in and when I powered up the HF and tested, it was randomly disconnecting the serial port (USB) so I removed that extension USB cable and relocated the APRS setup here and tested again with zero interference w/ APRSIS /T3/TM-281. I'm willing to bet 20 meters did interfere w/ the serial port. That seems to be solved now. Though that would not affect the remote digi (KB9UZO-10) I reduced the TX volume on the T3 (APRSIS) and lowered the volume knob on the Tm-281 just a hair. Not much difference as far as what direwolf is reporting:  Granted I am just a lowly aircraft mechanic (commercial heavies) and not an avid electronics guru so further experimenting is needed. Appreciate the input/sugestions! |
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Lynn Deffenbaugh
I would only suggest doing that on the observer side if Direwolf
is reporting that ALL stations' audio is too high. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE
for Windows Mobile and Win32
On 11/20/2022 7:58 AM, Don Rolph wrote:
You might try using alsamixer to reduce the sound level received by Dire Wolf. It is usually the mic input. |
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Don Rolph
You might try using alsamixer to reduce the sound level received by Dire Wolf. It is usually the mic input.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 20, 2022, at 7:35 AM, Lynn Deffenbaugh <kj4erj@...> wrote:
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Lynn Deffenbaugh
I can confirm that this "has zero to do with the software
settings", as long as the software we're talking about is
APRSIS32. Since Direwolf is only doing the reporting of the audio
levels, then it must be your settings between the T3 and the
TM-281. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE
for Windows Mobile and Win32
On 11/20/2022 1:49 AM, wheelz via
groups.io wrote:
Evening Folks, |
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Evening Folks,
I have one Igate, KB9UZO-10 running Direwolf off a raspberry pi 3B+ and my normal digipeater, KB9UZO-12 running APRSIS via the Argent T3 TNC using a Icom Tm-281. While checking in on my rural igate/digi running Direwolf, it is reporting that my -12 (running APRSIS)'s audio level is too high. See attached:  Not sure if this a snafu with Direwolf or it's really just an inaccuracy to be ignored. The TM-281's volume is about 30% and the Argent T3's volume is about 45-50% (calibrated via Argents instructions) As far as I am aware APRSIS uses the T3' and the Icoms Volume and since the RF side of the software is driven from those two components, this has zero to do with the software settings. Thoughts? Much obliged, B.W |
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