Topics

messages failing - message lockup

Greg D
 

Long-shot mussing...  This isn't the long known and disputed KPC3 hang, is it?  Or perhaps a flow control issue on the serial port?  When things get busy and backed-up on the channel, flow control could be "activated" but never released.

Greg  KO6TH


'Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)' kj4erj@... [aprsisce] wrote:

 

It almost sounds like your TNC thinks the channel is always busy and
won't transmit anything.  Have you listened to 144.390 (or whatever
frequency you are using) to see if it is wall-to-wall signal?  With the
altitude you describe, that could be the case.

If you want to know if APRSISCE/32 is sending things to the TNC, bring
up and enable the Transmit window as well as the Port().. 
You should see trace logs in those windows whenever APRSISCE/32 actually
sends stuff to the TNC.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

On 5/21/2019 1:04 PM, 'Michael Wright' mfwright@... [aprsisce] wrote:
> I am involved with this same race, I setup on the summit of Mt Hamilton road and APRSISCE is the perfect tool as I can see where all the SAG and EMT vehicles are located. Also pass messages from Start line to top of mountain finish line along with other updates.
>
> Arnold is looking into more of my situation where my station on the summit does great (I begin about 7 am) but about 9 am it will fail to transmit. My station doesn't beacon, nothing happens when I click Send. Even my SignalinkUSB doesn't respond. I can still receive (viewing station locations and getting messages) but as if the system is in "Receive Only" mode. I didn't have Ack checked. Then shortly after noontime, the system then returns to full functional use. But then by noontime our duties begin to wind down as all race participants pass the summit location.
>
> This situation has happened two years in a row. I will do some tests later tonight and tomorrow.
>
> Other than that, it is really cool, we get to see the various vehicles on the road and view messages. Much of what I learned of APRSISCE came from Arnold.
>
> Mike K6MFW
>
> --- aprsisce@... wrote:
>
> From: "ARNOLD HARDING
>
> That said, there is something going on in APRSISCE when station A sends a message to station B, but station B doesn't acknowledge, and the 6 attempts fail. It doesn't seem to recover as intended. At least that's what we see..
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Michael Wright"
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>


Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

And before anyone asks, you can read about the KPC-3+ issue at:

http://blog.aprs.fi/2011/03/kantronics-kpc3-considered-harmful.html

and

https://packet-radio.net/kantronics-kpc3-kiss-considered-harmful/


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

On 5/21/2019 11:49 PM, Greg D ko6th.greg@... [aprsisce] wrote:
Long-shot mussing...  This isn't the long known and disputed KPC3 hang, is it?  Or perhaps a flow control issue on the serial port?  When things get busy and backed-up on the channel, flow control could be "activated" but never released.

Greg  KO6TH


'Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)' kj4erj@... [aprsisce] wrote:
 

It almost sounds like your TNC thinks the channel is always busy and
won't transmit anything.  Have you listened to 144.390 (or whatever
frequency you are using) to see if it is wall-to-wall signal?  With the
altitude you describe, that could be the case.

If you want to know if APRSISCE/32 is sending things to the TNC, bring
up and enable the Transmit window as well as the Port().. 
You should see trace logs in those windows whenever APRSISCE/32 actually
sends stuff to the TNC.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

On 5/21/2019 1:04 PM, 'Michael Wright' mfwright@... [aprsisce] wrote:
> I am involved with this same race, I setup on the summit of Mt Hamilton road and APRSISCE is the perfect tool as I can see where all the SAG and EMT vehicles are located. Also pass messages from Start line to top of mountain finish line along with other updates.
>
> Arnold is looking into more of my situation where my station on the summit does great (I begin about 7 am) but about 9 am it will fail to transmit. My station doesn't beacon, nothing happens when I click Send. Even my SignalinkUSB doesn't respond. I can still receive (viewing station locations and getting messages) but as if the system is in "Receive Only" mode. I didn't have Ack checked. Then shortly after noontime, the system then returns to full functional use. But then by noontime our duties begin to wind down as all race participants pass the summit location.
>
> This situation has happened two years in a row. I will do some tests later tonight and tomorrow.
>
> Other than that, it is really cool, we get to see the various vehicles on the road and view messages. Much of what I learned of APRSISCE came from Arnold.
>
> Mike K6MFW
>
> --- aprsisce@... wrote:
>
> From: "ARNOLD HARDING
>
> That said, there is something going on in APRSISCE when station A sends a message to station B, but station B doesn't acknowledge, and the 6 attempts fail. It doesn't seem to recover as intended. At least that's what we see..
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Michael Wright"
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>


Michael Wright
 

It almost sounds like your TNC thinks the channel is always busy and
won't transmit anything.  Have you listened to 144.390 (or whatever
I suspect the same thing, at 4300 ft, it is wall to wall signal. I wonder if APRSISCE can do a force transmit. fyi, my TNC is Direwolf and a SignalinkUSB for radio interface.

enable the Transmit window as well as the Port(<YourPortName>). 
You should see trace logs in those windows whenever APRSISCE/32 actually
sends stuff to the TNC.
I will try that.

Thanks for the help, Mike K6MFW

Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

APRSIS32 is completely unaware of the channel conditions.  When it wants to transmit (except for messages blocked by non-acknowledged pending one), it sends the packet over to the TNC.  It's up to the TNC to evaluate channel conditions and decide when it is clear enough to transmit.

If you're using DireWolf, you need to check there for settings affecting transmits.  But feel free to post back to the group here if you find something.


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

On 5/22/2019 12:24 AM, 'Michael Wright' mfwright@... [aprsisce] wrote:
It almost sounds like your TNC thinks the channel is always busy and
won't transmit anything.  Have you listened to 144.390 (or whatever
I suspect the same thing, at 4300 ft, it is wall to wall signal. I wonder if APRSISCE can do a force transmit. fyi, my TNC is Direwolf and a SignalinkUSB for radio interface.

enable the Transmit window as well as the Port(<YourPortName>).
You should see trace logs in those windows whenever APRSISCE/32 actually
sends stuff to the TNC.
I will try that.

Thanks for the help, Mike K6MFW

------------------------------------
Posted by: "Michael Wright" <mfwright@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Rob Giuliano
 

Read about PERSIST and SLOTTIME for your TNC to understand how a KISS TNC determines if the channel is busy.

In reality, since SLOTTIME and PERSIST define a probability, if any signal is detected within the parameters the TNC won't TX.  

Simple Test:  does the setup transmit on the bench into a dummy load with no signals present?
If so, you are going to have issue with that amount of local RF.

Since you brought it up, you need to "trick" the TNC into thinking the RF is clear in order to TX.  Since most modern (DSP based) TNCs use open squelch and an algorithm to determine if the RF has "data", the only method I can think of is raise the Squelch level.  Set the Squelch so that very weak signals will not break it and you should be able to TX.

TWO ISSUES:
  Keep in mind that it will be on top of another "weaker" signal.
  Those signals that were heard before the raised squelch won't be decoded, DIGI'ed or handled in any way.

Within those parameters, you can decide how you want the system to work.

Robert Giuliano
KB8RCO



On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 8:53:19 AM EDT, 'Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)' kj4erj@... [aprsisce] <aprsisce@...> wrote:


 

APRSIS32 is completely unaware of the channel conditions.  When it wants
to transmit (except for messages blocked by non-acknowledged pending
one), it sends the packet over to the TNC.  It's up to the TNC to
evaluate channel conditions and decide when it is clear enough to transmit.

If you're using DireWolf, you need to check there for settings affecting
transmits.  But feel free to post back to the group here if you find
something.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

On 5/22/2019 12:24 AM, 'Michael Wright' mfwright@... [aprsisce]
wrote:
>> It almost sounds like your TNC thinks the channel is always busy and
>> won't transmit anything.  Have you listened to 144.390 (or whatever
> I suspect the same thing, at 4300 ft, it is wall to wall signal. I wonder if APRSISCE can do a force transmit. fyi, my TNC is Direwolf and a SignalinkUSB for radio interface.
>
>> enable the Transmit window as well as the Port().
>> You should see trace logs in those windows whenever APRSISCE/32 actually
>> sends stuff to the TNC.
> I will try that.
>
> Thanks for the help, Mike K6MFW
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Michael Wright" > ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Michael Wright
 

Read about PERSIST and SLOTTIME for your TNC to understand how a KISS TNC determines if the channel is busy.
I read that this morning, I was wondering if I set these in config file to zero and Direwolf will transmit no matter what. At 4300 feet Mt Hamilton overlooks entire SF bay area plus Monterey bay area and a good portion of central calif. Last year I tried putting squelch to maximum but the radio still would not transmit. At that altitude even an FRS radio will have full quieting.

Before I left for work, I fired up my laptop to see how well it holds up during the day. And appears to do quite well, I probably should widen times between beacons and remove telemetry transmissions so not be one to congest 144.39.

For this Sunday's Mt Hamilton Classic bike race, I will not beacon and will not have Ack checked for messaging. We can always say a brief "got data" by voice.

thanks, Mike K6MFW

James Ewen
 

Here’s the view from an outsider looking in with little information.

If you are wanting to transmit onto 144.390 from a site overlooking SAN Fransisco at 4300 feet ASL, you will need to ignore the input. Easy way to do so is to not connect a receiver to the APRSISCE/32 instance. Transmit blind. You will clobber other stations and make people mad, but you will never find a quiet time to be able to transmit otherwise.

If you need to receive information from other stations and they are on 144.390, then you’re out of luck for transmitting, unless somehow no one is operating on 144.390.

An alternate solution is to use a frequency that is not over saturated and run all operations on that frequency you will have an empty channel to transmit into, and will likely find that you have far better success with hearing other stations in the quiet rather than trying to pick them out of the noise.

Simple radio concepts that people seem to forget when they work in digital.

If there’s a pile up on HF, do you try to rag chew with your buddy overtop of the pile up, or do you look for a quiet frequency and have a nice chinwag with each other?

You are not locked on 144.390 unless you’re still using a crystal controlled radio.

James
VE6SRV

On May 22, 2019, at 5:21 PM, 'Michael Wright' mfwright@... [aprsisce] <aprsisce@...> wrote:

Read about PERSIST and SLOTTIME for your TNC to understand how a KISS TNC determines if the channel is busy.
I read that this morning, I was wondering if I set these in config file to zero and Direwolf will transmit no matter what. At 4300 feet Mt Hamilton overlooks entire SF bay area plus Monterey bay area and a good portion of central calif. Last year I tried putting squelch to maximum but the radio still would not transmit. At that altitude even an FRS radio will have full quieting.

Before I left for work, I fired up my laptop to see how well it holds up during the day. And appears to do quite well, I probably should widen times between beacons and remove telemetry transmissions so not be one to congest 144.39.

For this Sunday's Mt Hamilton Classic bike race, I will not beacon and will not have Ack checked for messaging. We can always say a brief "got data" by voice.

thanks, Mike K6MFW


------------------------------------
Posted by: "Michael Wright" <mfwright@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


James Ewen
 

W6TCP looks like a digi you might be trying to use. I can't tell if it is listening on 144.390 or not.

Here's what it is listening to on a regular basis.
https://aprs.fi/#!v=heard&call=a%2FW6TCP&timerange=3600&tail=3600  

The graphs of activity make me wonder what's going on.

This shows even fewer users which makes me think it's not on 144.390.


WA6ODP-2 looks like it is on 144.390 and hears far too much...
 
You can see from the graphs that it regularly hears stations out to 100 miles away.

Here's another look at all the digi users.

If you are trying to use these digipeaters to support your event, perhaps you can look at placing digipeaters at these sites on an alternate frequency temporarily and using that instead.

If it hasn't worked for the past two years and you are doing nothing to change the way you are operating, chances are it won't work again this year.

James
VE6SRV


On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 5:52 PM James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
Here’s the view from an outsider looking in with little information. 

If you are wanting to transmit onto 144.390 from a site overlooking SAN Fransisco at 4300 feet ASL, you will need to ignore the input. Easy way to do so is to not connect a receiver to the APRSISCE/32 instance. Transmit blind. You will clobber other stations and make people mad, but you will never find a quiet time to be able to transmit otherwise.

If you need to receive information from other stations and they are on 144.390, then you’re out of luck for transmitting, unless somehow no one is operating on 144.390.

An alternate solution is to use a frequency that is not over saturated and run all operations on that frequency you will have an empty channel to transmit into, and will likely find that you have far better success with hearing other stations in the quiet rather than trying to pick them out of the noise.

Simple radio concepts that people seem to forget when they work in digital.

If there’s a pile up on HF, do you try to rag chew with your buddy overtop of the pile up, or do you look for a quiet frequency and have a nice chinwag with each other?

You are not locked on 144.390 unless you’re still using a crystal controlled radio.

James
VE6SRV

On May 22, 2019, at 5:21 PM, 'Michael Wright' mfwright@... [aprsisce] <aprsisce@...> wrote:

>> Read about PERSIST and SLOTTIME for your TNC to understand how a KISS TNC determines if the channel is busy.
>
> I read that this morning, I was wondering if I set these in config file to zero and Direwolf will transmit no matter what. At 4300 feet Mt Hamilton overlooks entire SF bay area plus Monterey bay area and a good portion of central calif. Last year I tried putting squelch to maximum but the radio still would not transmit. At that altitude even an FRS radio will have full quieting.
>
> Before I left for work, I fired up my laptop to see how well it holds up during the day. And appears to do quite well, I probably should widen times between beacons and remove telemetry transmissions so not be one to congest 144.39.
>
> For this Sunday's Mt Hamilton Classic bike race, I will not beacon and will not have Ack checked for messaging. We can always say a brief "got data" by voice.
>
> thanks, Mike K6MFW
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Michael Wright" <mfwright@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
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>
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>

Rob Giuliano
 

Option 2:
SDR for receive (maybe with a TX mute to prevent overload) and disconnect the receive capability to the TNC that is doing the TX.  This could be done with separate ports (and possible sound cards) in an app like Dire Wolf.  Since APRSIS32 can only TX on the first AGW stream, you can use the second stream for receive and give no receieve audio to the first.  WIth Cheap USB sound cards this would be fairly easy to accomplish.

Robert Giuliano

KB8RCO



On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 7:53:20 PM EDT, James Ewen ve6srv@... [aprsisce] wrote:


 

Here’s the view from an outsider looking in with little information.

If you are wanting to transmit onto 144.390 from a site overlooking SAN Fransisco at 4300 feet ASL, you will need to ignore the input. Easy way to do so is to not connect a receiver to the APRSISCE/32 instance. Transmit blind.. You will clobber other stations and make people mad, but you will never find a quiet time to be able to transmit otherwise.

If you need to receive information from other stations and they are on 144.390, then you’re out of luck for transmitting, unless somehow no one is operating on 144.390.

An alternate solution is to use a frequency that is not over saturated and run all operations on that frequency you will have an empty channel to transmit into, and will likely find that you have far better success with hearing other stations in the quiet rather than trying to pick them out of the noise.

Simple radio concepts that people seem to forget when they work in digital.

If there’s a pile up on HF, do you try to rag chew with your buddy overtop of the pile up, or do you look for a quiet frequency and have a nice chinwag with each other?

You are not locked on 144.390 unless you’re still using a crystal controlled radio.

James
VE6SRV

On May 22, 2019, at 5:21 PM, 'Michael Wright' mfwright@... [aprsisce] wrote:

>> Read about PERSIST and SLOTTIME for your TNC to understand how a KISS TNC determines if the channel is busy.
>
> I read that this morning, I was wondering if I set these in config file to zero and Direwolf will transmit no matter what. At 4300 feet Mt Hamilton overlooks entire SF bay area plus Monterey bay area and a good portion of central calif. Last year I tried putting squelch to maximum but the radio still would not transmit. At that altitude even an FRS radio will have full quieting.
>
> Before I left for work, I fired up my laptop to see how well it holds up during the day. And appears to do quite well, I probably should widen times between beacons and remove telemetry transmissions so not be one to congest 144.39.
>
> For this Sunday's Mt Hamilton Classic bike race, I will not beacon and will not have Ack checked for messaging. We can always say a brief "got data" by voice.
>
> thanks, Mike K6MFW
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Michael Wright"
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Greg D
 

I think the suggestion to move to a non-APRS digital channel might be a good one.  If you need a presence on APRS-IS, an iGate at the top of the hill could do that.  I'm involved in some large events, where we use both voice and Winlink on VHF.  A good bit of effort is spent optimizing channel usage, both voice and data, to improve reliability, and it really helps.

Greg  KO6TH


James Ewen ve6srv@... [aprsisce] wrote:

 
W6TCP looks like a digi you might be trying to use. I can't tell if it is listening on 144.390 or not.

Here's what it is listening to on a regular basis.
https://aprs.fi/#!v=heard&call=a%2FW6TCP&timerange=3600&tail=3600  

The graphs of activity make me wonder what's going on.

This shows even fewer users which makes me think it's not on 144.390.


WA6ODP-2 looks like it is on 144.390 and hears far too much...
 
You can see from the graphs that it regularly hears stations out to 100 miles away.

Here's another look at all the digi users.

If you are trying to use these digipeaters to support your event, perhaps you can look at placing digipeaters at these sites on an alternate frequency temporarily and using that instead.

If it hasn't worked for the past two years and you are doing nothing to change the way you are operating, chances are it won't work again this year.

James
VE6SRV


On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 5:52 PM James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
Here’s the view from an outsider looking in with little information. 

If you are wanting to transmit onto 144.390 from a site overlooking SAN Fransisco at 4300 feet ASL, you will need to ignore the input. Easy way to do so is to not connect a receiver to the APRSISCE/32 instance. Transmit blind.. You will clobber other stations and make people mad, but you will never find a quiet time to be able to transmit otherwise.

If you need to receive information from other stations and they are on 144.390, then you’re out of luck for transmitting, unless somehow no one is operating on 144.390.

An alternate solution is to use a frequency that is not over saturated and run all operations on that frequency you will have an empty channel to transmit into, and will likely find that you have far better success with hearing other stations in the quiet rather than trying to pick them out of the noise.

Simple radio concepts that people seem to forget when they work in digital.

If there’s a pile up on HF, do you try to rag chew with your buddy overtop of the pile up, or do you look for a quiet frequency and have a nice chinwag with each other?

You are not locked on 144.390 unless you’re still using a crystal controlled radio.

James
VE6SRV

On May 22, 2019, at 5:21 PM, 'Michael Wright' mfwright@... [aprsisce] <aprsisce@...> wrote:

>> Read about PERSIST and SLOTTIME for your TNC to understand how a KISS TNC determines if the channel is busy.
>
> I read that this morning, I was wondering if I set these in config file to zero and Direwolf will transmit no matter what. At 4300 feet Mt Hamilton overlooks entire SF bay area plus Monterey bay area and a good portion of central calif. Last year I tried putting squelch to maximum but the radio still would not transmit. At that altitude even an FRS radio will have full quieting.
>
> Before I left for work, I fired up my laptop to see how well it holds up during the day. And appears to do quite well, I probably should widen times between beacons and remove telemetry transmissions so not be one to congest 144.39.
>
> For this Sunday's Mt Hamilton Classic bike race, I will not beacon and will not have Ack checked for messaging. We can always say a brief "got data" by voice.
>
> thanks, Mike K6MFW
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Michael Wright" <mfwright@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aprsisce/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
>    Individual Email | Traditional
>
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>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aprsisce/join
>    (Yahoo! ID required)
>
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>    aprsisce-digest@...
>    aprsisce-fullfeatured@...
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>

Michael Wright
 

If it hasn't worked for the past two years
overall this has worked, it is simply my station I can't send a short message "OK" to let people at Start line know I received info on riders and start times. As mentioned before I can still receive but transmitting fails between 9 am and 12 noon.

I just adjusted my set to send only Wide 1-1 to reduce hops.

You will clobber other stations and make people mad
not really, I don't beacon and only send short message "copy" or "OK" so station that sends race data know I received it. Our voice channels can get busy. Other stations are at lower level.

Team has a number of Tinytrack radios they put in SAG vehicles with magmount antenna.

Mike K6MFW