Date   

Re: {Some tags disabled} RE: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

Given what you wrote below, I remain convinced that the D72, in the presence of a frequency in the object name and the comment, will choose the comment frequency and tune appropriately based on internal knowledge and settings, completely ignoring the frequency from the object name.

And I still think the MHzrx should be MHz and the rx is simply being ignored. There's certainly no MHzrx in the spec anywhere.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

On 5/8/2012 5:27 PM, Keith VE7GDH wrote:
Greg KB3KBR wrote...

so that means make an obj 144.630PA 145.230Mhzrx T123 ??
That works / doesn't work for me on a D72. The radio tuned OK,
but it went to 144.630 simplex, no offset, no tone.

However, change the Mhz to MHz and it did work, but with
the D72 listening on 145.230 and transmitting on 144.630, and
with no tone enabled. Going to a lower case t also didn't enable
the tone.

Note the change in object name. My preference would be for
the callsign-R for the object name. Changing it to the following...

144.635PA 145.230MHz T123

This worked, but it set the radio to 145.230 MHz with a standard
-600 kHz (North America) offset. It didn't get it listening or
transmitting on 144.635 MHz. It did enable the tone.

I still haven't been able to come up with any combination where
I can get the D72 to tune to a specific offset... just the standard
+/- 600 kHz (in North America... D72A model) on 2M. I still
need to do some more testing on 70 cm so I won't comment there
to further muddy the waters.

Gotta get some work done!

73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
--
"I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

You probably don't need the rx after the MHz, actually. And to be clear, which "it" now qsy's properly? A D72? or something else?

And the name is still supposed to be the repeater's OUTPUT frequency, the frequency that a user would LISTEN to. The frequency in the packet (per spec) is supposed to be the repeater's non-standard INPUT frequency. If your Kenwood radio going the other way, I suspect it's ignoring the frequency in the object name in favor of the one in the comment.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

On 5/8/2012 5:30 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
I have now created an obj 144.630PA(name) 145.230MHzrx T123. It now qsy's properly. Although i think its very confusing to see the input in the name rather than the output, especially when using a non qsy-able rig such as the vx8g.


To: aprsisce@...
From: kj4erj@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 17:21:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [aprsisce] FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

On 5/8/2012 5:00 PM, James Ewen wrote:
> Lynn, can you show me again where there's the FFF.FFFMHz definition
> for the rx frequency in the FREQUENCY OBJECT definition. I've got 3
> versions of the freqspec document open and I can't find it...

There isn't. The only provision for a second frequency in a FREQUENCY
OBJECT is in the following statement:

> If both the object name and the
> comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit
> frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is
> its crossband or non-standard split receive frequency.

According to how I read the following quote, NONE of the nice 1st/2nd 10
character stuff applies to frequency objects, you get the frequency in
the object name and that's all! Because everything else REQUIRES an
FFF.FF MHz or FFF.FFFMHz in the first 10 bytes which, by what I quoted
above, would be the transmit frequency.

> APRS FREQUENCY FORMATS:
> -----------------------
>
> There are two Frequency formats. The POSITION COMMENT format includes
> the frequency as FFF.FFFMHz in the free field text of a normal
> position or object report as noted above. The other is called the
> OBJECT format because it puts the Frequency in the OBJECT NAME using
> the format of FFF.FFxyz so that it shows up very clearly on the
> radio's positions list. Of course, an object can also have a frequency
> in its position comment as well. If both the object name and the
> comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit
> frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is
> its crossband or non-standard split receive frequency.
>
> As noted before, a 10x10x+ format is used for the POSITION COMMENT
> format for best display on the existing variety of APRS radios. Here
> are the standard 10-byte formats. Please note that spaces are
> required where shown. In some cases a "_" may be shown for clarity
> in this document, but in the actual format, a SPACE should be used:
>
> 1st 10-BYTES Frequency Description
> ---------- -----------------------------------------------------
> FFF.FF MHz Freq to nearest 10 KHz
> FFF.FFFMHz Freq to nearest 1 KHz
>
> Examples:
> 146.52 MHz Enroute Alabama
> 147.105MHz AARC Radio Club
> 146.82 MHz T107 AARC Repeater (Tone of 107.2)
> 146.835MHz C107 R25m AARC (CTCSS of 107.3 and range of 25 mi)
> 146.805MHz D256 R25k Repeater (DCS code and range of 25 km)
> 146.40 MHz T067 +100 Repeater (67.8 tone and +1.00 MHz offset)
> 442.440MHz T107 -500 Repeater (107.2 tone and 5 MHz offset)
> 145.50 MHz t077 Simplex (Tone of 77.X Hz and NARROW band)
>
> 2nd 10-BYTES Optional Added fields (with leading space)
> ---------- -----------------------------------------------------
> _Txxx RXXm Optional PL tone and nominal range in miles
> _Cxxx RXXm Optional CTCSS tone and range in miles
> _Dxxx RXXk Optional DCS code and nominal range in kilometers
> _1750 RXXk Optional 1750 tone, range in km, wide modulation
> _l750 RXXk Optional 1750 tone narrow modulation (lower case L)
> _Toff RXXk Optional NO-PL, No DCS, no Tone, etc.
> _Txxx +060 Optional Offset of +600 KHz (up to 9.90 MHz)
> _Exxm Wxxm East range and West range if different (N,S,E,W)
> _txxx RXXm Lower case first letter means NARROW modulation
> _FFF.FFFrx Alternate receiver Frequency if not standard offset

THIS is why we need to unify the specification to ALLOW a frequency as
the object name, but define ONE AND ONLY ONE set of parameters for the
Position Comment that provides ALL of the required information.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32




Re: {Some tags disabled} Re: FREQ OBJECT Uniqueness

Keith VE7GDH
 

Bob WB4APR wrote...

I think you miss the objective. Sure locals may know the repeaters by
callsign, but the whole point of FREQ objects is for travelers. So
they can see what freq is recommended wherever they are.

If I drove through your area, there is no way I would notice that
VE7RSI flashing on my display is a repeater and it is unsafe to assume
that even if I did recognize it, I would take my hands off the wheel
to go through multiple button pushes to search for it in the station
list and then click on it just to see the frequency.
Here we disagree and there's probably not much chance of either of us
changing our minds. Perhaps you missed that I suggested a "dash R" on
the end to indicate it was a repeater. You wouldn't see just the
callsign on the screen... you would see VE7RSI-R. That would stand out
to me just as much as a frequency. You would have to push EXACTLY the
same number of buttons to TUNE / QSY to the repeater frequency (or
simplex frequency for that matter) whether it showed the callsign or the
frequency in the object name.

If it was a regular APRS user, you would have to bring up the station
list before you could see if they were beaconing their voice frequency,
but you would have to do that anyway (at least in the D72) to get ready
to hit MENU - TUNE - OK.

The purpose of the FREQ object is so that when it is received, it
FLASHES "147.105 R" on the front panel for 10 seconds alerting me that I am in range of that repeater and that all I have to do is press ONE button to have the radio go there (including with the correct tone and offset).
Perhaps that's on a D710. On the D72, I have to press three buttons even
if the object or station is still on the screen... LIST, MENU, ENTER to
tune to the beaconed frequency. If I dawdle and the frequency is busy, I
would have to scroll the list to get to the object. If the D710 allows
you to just press a single button, that's great and an improvement. It
would be the same whether a frequency was embedded in the object name or
whether a callsign was embedded. To me the "dash R" would be very
recognizable as a repeater. If I saw a frequency flash up on the screen,
chances are it's a repeater, but not necessarily. If you had to press
more than one button while mobile, there would be a pretty good argument
about being a "distracted driver" if anything happened.

That kind of multilevel COGNITION is not possible for Travelers from
just a local callsign.
VE7RSI-R or 147.320MHz... they both work for me. If I saw any callsign-R
I would assume it was a repeater even if I wasn't familiar with it. On
the other hand, if I saw 147.000MHz I wouldn't know which 147 repeater
it was. There are at least two I can hit and there's probably another
not too far off.

Remember... if I was ever in your neck of the woods, I would call you by
callsign. I wouldn't say "hey Bob on 732" or whatever frequency you were
listening on. Among other things, callsigns are what set us apart from
some other bands where they aren't required any more.

I just noticed the subject... FREQ OBJECT Uniqueness. Callsigns
are more than unique than frequencies.

73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
--
"I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"


Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Greg Depew
 

I have now created an obj 144.630PA(name) 145.230MHzrx T123. It now qsy's properly. Although i think its very confusing to see the input in the name rather than the output, especially when using a non qsy-able rig such as the vx8g.


To: aprsisce@...
From: kj4erj@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 17:21:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [aprsisce] FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?


 
On 5/8/2012 5:00 PM, James Ewen wrote:
> Lynn, can you show me again where there's the FFF.FFFMHz definition
> for the rx frequency in the FREQUENCY OBJECT definition. I've got 3
> versions of the freqspec document open and I can't find it...

There isn't. The only provision for a second frequency in a FREQUENCY
OBJECT is in the following statement:

> If both the object name and the
> comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit
> frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is
> its crossband or non-standard split receive frequency.

According to how I read the following quote, NONE of the nice 1st/2nd 10
character stuff applies to frequency objects, you get the frequency in
the object name and that's all! Because everything else REQUIRES an
FFF.FF MHz or FFF.FFFMHz in the first 10 bytes which, by what I quoted
above, would be the transmit frequency.

> APRS FREQUENCY FORMATS:
> -----------------------
>
> There are two Frequency formats. The POSITION COMMENT format includes
> the frequency as FFF.FFFMHz in the free field text of a normal
> position or object report as noted above. The other is called the
> OBJECT format because it puts the Frequency in the OBJECT NAME using
> the format of FFF.FFxyz so that it shows up very clearly on the
> radio's positions list. Of course, an object can also have a frequency
> in its position comment as well. If both the object name and the
> comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit
> frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is
> its crossband or non-standard split receive frequency.
>
> As noted before, a 10x10x+ format is used for the POSITION COMMENT
> format for best display on the existing variety of APRS radios. Here
> are the standard 10-byte formats. Please note that spaces are
> required where shown. In some cases a "_" may be shown for clarity
> in this document, but in the actual format, a SPACE should be used:
>
> 1st 10-BYTES Frequency Description
> ---------- -----------------------------------------------------
> FFF.FF MHz Freq to nearest 10 KHz
> FFF.FFFMHz Freq to nearest 1 KHz
>
> Examples:
> 146.52 MHz Enroute Alabama
> 147.105MHz AARC Radio Club
> 146.82 MHz T107 AARC Repeater (Tone of 107.2)
> 146.835MHz C107 R25m AARC (CTCSS of 107.3 and range of 25 mi)
> 146.805MHz D256 R25k Repeater (DCS code and range of 25 km)
> 146.40 MHz T067 +100 Repeater (67.8 tone and +1.00 MHz offset)
> 442.440MHz T107 -500 Repeater (107.2 tone and 5 MHz offset)
> 145.50 MHz t077 Simplex (Tone of 77.X Hz and NARROW band)
>
> 2nd 10-BYTES Optional Added fields (with leading space)
> ---------- -----------------------------------------------------
> _Txxx RXXm Optional PL tone and nominal range in miles
> _Cxxx RXXm Optional CTCSS tone and range in miles
> _Dxxx RXXk Optional DCS code and nominal range in kilometers
> _1750 RXXk Optional 1750 tone, range in km, wide modulation
> _l750 RXXk Optional 1750 tone narrow modulation (lower case L)
> _Toff RXXk Optional NO-PL, No DCS, no Tone, etc.
> _Txxx +060 Optional Offset of +600 KHz (up to 9.90 MHz)
> _Exxm Wxxm East range and West range if different (N,S,E,W)
> _txxx RXXm Lower case first letter means NARROW modulation
> _FFF.FFFrx Alternate receiver Frequency if not standard offset

THIS is why we need to unify the specification to ALLOW a frequency as
the object name, but define ONE AND ONLY ONE set of parameters for the
Position Comment that provides ALL of the required information.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32



Re: FREQ OBJECT Uniqueness

Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

On 5/8/2012 5:15 PM, Bob Bruninga wrote:

Only if it is a crossband repeater. Otherwise only the OBJECT NAME or the
COMENT text has the frequency, not both. Transmitting a packet with both is
not spec compliant unless it is a crossband repeater or split that cannot be
formatted into +xxx or -xxx.
Where'd you get "cannot be formatted"? All I read is "non-standard", not "cannot be formatted" in:

If both the object name and the
comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit
frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is
its crossband or non-standard split receive frequency.
and the offset is not a defined part of the FREQUENCY OBJECT.
It most certainly is. "Tnnn -xxx (or +xxx)" works as it should for a FREQ
object in my D710's and D72's.
It may WORK, but according to the SPEC, that's only allowed in the SECOND 10 characters of the comment!

2nd 10-BYTES Optional Added fields (with leading space)
---------- -----------------------------------------------------
<Extra examples removed>
_Txxx +060 Optional Offset of +600 KHz (up to 9.90 MHz)
_Exxm Wxxm East range and West range if different (N,S,E,W)
Yep, Bob just proved that the D710 and D72 are non-spec compliant because they're mixing the definitions of a FREQUENCY OBJECT with the attributes of a POSITION COMMENT without requiring the (optional) frequency to appear as the 1st 10 bytes of the packet.

I know the Kenwood will QSY without the second frequency
as I use it on all of the FREQUENCY OBJECTs that I send from my
digipeaters.

Then it is disingenuous for you to be blogging that the Kenwood is non spec
compliant when it actually is.
Nope, show me, step by step, how the spec as currently written allows for a FREQUENCY OBJECT's comment to start with a tone and offset?

We do have to figure out a solution. But I don't see how you can claim the
Kenwood is not spec compliant. We have to be careful of spreading
disinformation.
Agreed. That's why we're pushing for a unified specification of ONE repeater frequency definition with an OPTIONAL (but recommended) frequency as the object name.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


Re: {Some tags disabled} RE: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Keith VE7GDH
 

Greg KB3KBR wrote...

so that means make an obj 144.630PA 145.230Mhzrx T123 ??
That works / doesn't work for me on a D72. The radio tuned OK,
but it went to 144.630 simplex, no offset, no tone.

However, change the Mhz to MHz and it did work, but with
the D72 listening on 145.230 and transmitting on 144.630, and
with no tone enabled. Going to a lower case t also didn't enable
the tone.

Note the change in object name. My preference would be for
the callsign-R for the object name. Changing it to the following...

144.635PA 145.230MHz T123

This worked, but it set the radio to 145.230 MHz with a standard
-600 kHz (North America) offset. It didn't get it listening or
transmitting on 144.635 MHz. It did enable the tone.

I still haven't been able to come up with any combination where
I can get the D72 to tune to a specific offset... just the standard
+/- 600 kHz (in North America... D72A model) on 2M. I still
need to do some more testing on 70 cm so I won't comment there
to further muddy the waters.

Gotta get some work done!

73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
--
"I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"


Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

On 5/8/2012 5:00 PM, James Ewen wrote:
Lynn, can you show me again where there's the FFF.FFFMHz definition for the rx frequency in the FREQUENCY OBJECT definition. I've got 3 versions of the freqspec document open and I can't find it...
There isn't. The only provision for a second frequency in a FREQUENCY OBJECT is in the following statement:

If both the object name and the
comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit
frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is
its crossband or non-standard split receive frequency.
According to how I read the following quote, NONE of the nice 1st/2nd 10 character stuff applies to frequency objects, you get the frequency in the object name and that's all! Because everything else REQUIRES an FFF.FF MHz or FFF.FFFMHz in the first 10 bytes which, by what I quoted above, would be the transmit frequency.

APRS FREQUENCY FORMATS:
-----------------------

There are two Frequency formats. The POSITION COMMENT format includes
the frequency as FFF.FFFMHz in the free field text of a normal
position or object report as noted above. The other is called the
OBJECT format because it puts the Frequency in the OBJECT NAME using
the format of FFF.FFxyz so that it shows up very clearly on the
radio's positions list. Of course, an object can also have a frequency
in its position comment as well. If both the object name and the
comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit
frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is
its crossband or non-standard split receive frequency.

As noted before, a 10x10x+ format is used for the POSITION COMMENT
format for best display on the existing variety of APRS radios. Here
are the standard 10-byte formats. Please note that spaces are
required where shown. In some cases a "_" may be shown for clarity
in this document, but in the actual format, a SPACE should be used:

1st 10-BYTES Frequency Description
---------- -----------------------------------------------------
FFF.FF MHz Freq to nearest 10 KHz
FFF.FFFMHz Freq to nearest 1 KHz

Examples:
146.52 MHz Enroute Alabama
147.105MHz AARC Radio Club
146.82 MHz T107 AARC Repeater (Tone of 107.2)
146.835MHz C107 R25m AARC (CTCSS of 107.3 and range of 25 mi)
146.805MHz D256 R25k Repeater (DCS code and range of 25 km)
146.40 MHz T067 +100 Repeater (67.8 tone and +1.00 MHz offset)
442.440MHz T107 -500 Repeater (107.2 tone and 5 MHz offset)
145.50 MHz t077 Simplex (Tone of 77.X Hz and NARROW band)

2nd 10-BYTES Optional Added fields (with leading space)
---------- -----------------------------------------------------
_Txxx RXXm Optional PL tone and nominal range in miles
_Cxxx RXXm Optional CTCSS tone and range in miles
_Dxxx RXXk Optional DCS code and nominal range in kilometers
_1750 RXXk Optional 1750 tone, range in km, wide modulation
_l750 RXXk Optional 1750 tone narrow modulation (lower case L)
_Toff RXXk Optional NO-PL, No DCS, no Tone, etc.
_Txxx +060 Optional Offset of +600 KHz (up to 9.90 MHz)
_Exxm Wxxm East range and West range if different (N,S,E,W)
_txxx RXXm Lower case first letter means NARROW modulation
_FFF.FFFrx Alternate receiver Frequency if not standard offset
THIS is why we need to unify the specification to ALLOW a frequency as the object name, but define ONE AND ONLY ONE set of parameters for the Position Comment that provides ALL of the required information.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


Re: FREQ OBJECT Uniqueness

Robert Bruninga
 

Here's an object my peers in Calgary are sending in order to get
"proper" QSY functionality on their Kenwood radios.
;146.85-NH*111111z5106.50N/11405.92Wr146.850MHz T110 -060 R50k RYC

They insist that the radio will NOT QSY without the second
frequency in the comment, and the offset included.
Sorry, They need to re-check. The OBJECT with only a FREQ in the name works
fine here. See my object 147.105md on the air. Not only does my D72 and
D710 QSY, but they also properly do the weird -500 KHz shift I included.

The second frequency according to the current spec
should be interpreted as the RX frequency,
Only if it is a crossband repeater. Otherwise only the OBJECT NAME or the
COMENT text has the frequency, not both. Transmitting a packet with both is
not spec compliant unless it is a crossband repeater or split that cannot be
formatted into +xxx or -xxx.

and the offset is not a defined part of the FREQUENCY OBJECT.
It most certainly is. "Tnnn -xxx (or +xxx)" works as it should for a FREQ
object in my D710's and D72's.

The Kenwood does not set the radio to simplex.
None of the radios in North America will set any radio to simplex in a known
repeater band without the operator having to override the SHIFT defaults.
Same goes for APRS radios. If you want to force simplex in a repeater band
over APRS, then you have to FORCE the offset to -000.

I know the Kenwood will QSY without the second frequency
as I use it on all of the FREQUENCY OBJECTs that I send from my
digipeaters.

Then it is disingenuous for you to be blogging that the Kenwood is non spec
compliant when it actually is.

I'm thinking that they have come up with this hybrid
to make BOTH the Yaesu and Kenwood "work".
We do have to figure out a solution. But I don't see how you can claim the
Kenwood is not spec compliant. We have to be careful of spreading
disinformation.

Bob, Wb4APR


Proposed packet fixes (was: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?)

Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

On 5/8/2012 4:41 PM, Bob Bruninga wrote:
That is because 145.530rx is not IAW the spec. The first 10 byte frequency
MUST HAVE "MHz".

Only a second listed alternative repeater INPUT frequency in the "2nd 10
bytes" can be without the MHz.
And must have the rx, right? You can just put FFF.FFF in the second 10 bytes and expect it to work?

So, his packet that looked like (from aprs.fi):

KB3KBR-1>APWW09,TCPIP*,qAC,Firenet:;144.360 *082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT145.230rx T123


should have been what, exactly? And I expect you'll be saying the following (note the rx became MHz) because the spec says "If both the object name and the comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is its crossband or non-standard split receive frequency."

KB3KBR-1>APWW09:;144.360 *082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT145.230MHz T123


But that's the whole point of the problems in the spec (and don't just blame Yaesu, it's blatantly ambiguous to have a leading FFF.FFFMHz mean one thing in a Frequency Object and something different in a Position Comment). With that packet, an FTM-350 will tune to 145.230 and miss out completely. The following packet:

KB3KBR-1>APWW09;144.360 *082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT144.360MHz T123 +087


or for a real cross-band repeater, it might use (I know, it didn't change bands, but the previous and following packets are identical in function, right?):

KB3KBR-1>APWW09;144.360 *082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT144.360MHz T123 145.230rx


Is what we're trying to propose as the an allowable Frequency Object. It has the frequency as the object name to keep it visible in station lists and labels, it has the SAME frequency in the comment packet to allow FTM-350s to function, and it ALSO has the +087 offset in the Frequency Object that the current specification only seems to allow in Position Comments.

And even better, the following two do the SAME thing, but cater to the crowd that wants to put repeater names as the object (note that only the object name has changed, the comment stayed the same, regardless of the fact that there's no longer a frequency in the name):

KB3KBR-1>APWW09;W3ZIC-RPT*082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT144.360MHz T123 +087
KB3KBR-1>APWW09;W3ZIC-RPT*082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT144.360MHz T123 145.230rx


And to make up for the extra characters in the packet, we can use compressed coordinates as these examples do. Especially if someone puts up a coordinate to compressed calculator similar to the PHG calculators that are out there.

And while we're doing it, we need to get rid of this "2nd 10 bytes" and provide for as many blank-delimited fields as necessary to convey what a receiver needs to know about a given repeater. For instance:

KB3KBR-1>APWW09;144.360 *082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT144.360MHz T123 +087 R17m Vanity Repeater


or even

KB3KBR-1>APWW09;144.360 *082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT144.360MHz T123 +087 E23m N15m W08m S20m Cool Propagation


Yes, we can have examples that fit well on the 10 character existing screens, but radios won't always be that restricted and I don't believe we should constrain the spec for existing display devices. Especially because if somebody just wanted to be explicit, the following, IMHO, should also be legal, especially required for cross-band repeaters that want to advertise a range.

KB3KBR-1>APWW09;144.360 *082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT144.360MHz T123 145.230rx R17m Vanity Repeater

KB3KBR-1>APWW09;144.360 *082044z/9Z<]:@_sr sT144.360MHz T123 145.230rx E23m N15m W08m S20m Cool Propagation


Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Greg Depew
 

so that means make an obj 144.630PA  145.230Mhzrx T123 ?? KB3KBR Greg


To: aprsisce@...
From: ve6srv@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 15:00:48 -0600
Subject: Re: [aprsisce] FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?


 
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Bob Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:

>> ok, just made a spec approved obj of 144.630 in the name
>> and 145.230rx T123 and my 350 will NOT  qsy to it.
>
> That is because 145.530rx is not IAW the spec.  The first 10 byte frequency
> MUST HAVE "MHz".
>
> Only a second listed alternative repeater INPUT frequency in the "2nd 10
> bytes" can be without the MHz.

That's incorrect information Bob...

A FREQUENCY OBJECT with the frequency in the object name does not
allow for a frequency in the comment.

;FFF.FFFxy*111111zDDMM.hhN/DDDMM.hhWrT079 R25m NETxxxxxx MTGxxxx...

The sections you are quoting above are from the POSITION COMMENT specification.

As noted before, a 10x10x+ format is used for the POSITION COMMENT

1st 10 bytes
FFF.FFFMHz Freq to nearest 1 KHz

2nd 10 bytes
_FFF.FFFrx Alternate receiver Frequency if not standard offset
_FFF.FFF + Alternate Frequency and standard shift

Lynn, can you show me again where there's the FFF.FFFMHz definition
for the rx frequency in the FREQUENCY OBJECT definition. I've got 3
versions of the freqspec document open and I can't find it...

--
James
VE6SRV


Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

James Ewen
 

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu> wrote:

ok, just made a spec approved obj of 144.630 in the name
and 145.230rx T123 and my 350 will NOT  qsy to it.
That is because 145.530rx is not IAW the spec.  The first 10 byte frequency
MUST HAVE "MHz".

Only a second listed alternative repeater INPUT frequency in the "2nd 10
bytes" can be without the MHz.
That's incorrect information Bob...

A FREQUENCY OBJECT with the frequency in the object name does not
allow for a frequency in the comment.

;FFF.FFFxy*111111zDDMM.hhN/DDDMM.hhWrT079 R25m NETxxxxxx MTGxxxx...

The sections you are quoting above are from the POSITION COMMENT specification.

As noted before, a 10x10x+ format is used for the POSITION COMMENT

1st 10 bytes
FFF.FFFMHz Freq to nearest 1 KHz

2nd 10 bytes
_FFF.FFFrx Alternate receiver Frequency if not standard offset
_FFF.FFF + Alternate Frequency and standard shift


Lynn, can you show me again where there's the FFF.FFFMHz definition
for the rx frequency in the FREQUENCY OBJECT definition. I've got 3
versions of the freqspec document open and I can't find it...

--
James
VE6SRV


Re: {Some tags disabled} Re: FREQ OBJECT Uniqueness

Keith VE7GDH
 

James VE6SRV wrote...

So when I come to visit you, and you tell me to VE7RSI, what frequency should I have on my VFO?
If you were talking to me on voice, you would probably already be on the right frequency. If you we were somewhere else and you wanted to know the frequency of a particular repeater, I would just tell you. If you received it via APRS and you had a TUNE / QSY capable radio, you would just press a button or several and you would get there. If you see a frequency in the name of the object, and you had a TUNE / QSY capable radio, you would get there. If you saw a callsign followed by dash R, you might just figure out it was a repeater as well as which one it was, but by pressing the TUNE / QSY button, you would get there. We could but heads all day and about the best we could do would be to agree to disagree. I don't hear a lot of people jumping up to agree with me, so perhaps I'm in the minority. I still prefer to see the callsign.

73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
--
"I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"


Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Fred Hillhouse
 

Maximum of 9 characters are allowed for the name.
 
The name should be 144.630xy. Fill in the xy with something. If it is the only repeater with an object in your state, maybe you can use your state abbreviations. For instance, this in one in New Hampster, 147.330NH. There are others as well. I listed them in a very recent email.
 
Best regards,
Fred, N7FMH
 
 

From: aprsisce@... [mailto:aprsisce@...] On Behalf Of Greg Depew
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 16:51
To: aprsisce@...
Subject: RE: [aprsisce] FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

 

ok new problem aprs32 won't let me name an obj 144.630MHz it stops at the H.


To: aprsisce@...
From: bruninga@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:41:13 -0400
Subject: RE: [aprsisce] FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

 
Lynn said:

> ok, just made a spec approved obj of 144.630 in the name
> and 145.230rx T123 and my 350 will NOT  qsy to it.

That is because 145.530rx is not IAW the spec. The first 10 byte frequency
MUST HAVE "MHz".

Only a second listed alternative repeater INPUT frequency in the "2nd 10
bytes" can be without the MHz.

Bob, WB4APR
---------------------------------------
Greg said:

> My ftm 350 does not decode the qsy that has no rx freq
> in the comment. Example:443.650PA near Pittsburgh shows
> on my list but will not qsy with just the T131 RM50.
> It ignores the object name and parses from the comment.
> All of my objects that i transmit with aprs32 are compliant
> with the 350 and are all qsy-able but I dont know about the kenwoods.

Is this confirmed? This is a problem.. And why we need to build a BUG
table for all these issues.

I too have noticed that the 350 does not seem to QSY on some objects that
appear to me (in the mobile anyway) to be correctly formatted. I just
checked, and I cannot see any problems with the formatting of the 443.650PA
object.

Can the Yaesu firmware can be upgraded in the field?

Bob, Wb4aPR



Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Greg Depew
 

ok new problem aprs32 won't let me name an obj 144.630MHz it stops at the H.


To: aprsisce@...
From: bruninga@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:41:13 -0400
Subject: RE: [aprsisce] FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

 
Lynn said:

> ok, just made a spec approved obj of 144.630 in the name
> and 145.230rx T123 and my 350 will NOT  qsy to it.

That is because 145.530rx is not IAW the spec. The first 10 byte frequency
MUST HAVE "MHz".

Only a second listed alternative repeater INPUT frequency in the "2nd 10
bytes" can be without the MHz.

Bob, WB4APR
---------------------------------------
Greg said:

> My ftm 350 does not decode the qsy that has no rx freq
> in the comment. Example:443.650PA near Pittsburgh shows
> on my list but will not qsy with just the T131 RM50.
> It ignores the object name and parses from the comment.
> All of my objects that i transmit with aprs32 are compliant
> with the 350 and are all qsy-able but I dont know about the kenwoods.

Is this confirmed? This is a problem.. And why we need to build a BUG
table for all these issues.

I too have noticed that the 350 does not seem to QSY on some objects that
appear to me (in the mobile anyway) to be correctly formatted. I just
checked, and I cannot see any problems with the formatting of the 443.650PA
object.

Can the Yaesu firmware can be upgraded in the field?

Bob, Wb4aPR



Re: FREQ OBJECT Uniqueness

Keith VE7GDH
 

Bob WB4APR wrote...

145.006xy will tune to 145.00625
Not on the D72A that I have in front of me. I believe that it is
because the radio tunes in 5 kHz steps.

73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
--
"I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"


Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Robert Bruninga
 

Lynn said:

ok, just made a spec approved obj of 144.630 in the name
and 145.230rx T123 and my 350 will NOT  qsy to it.
That is because 145.530rx is not IAW the spec. The first 10 byte frequency
MUST HAVE "MHz".

Only a second listed alternative repeater INPUT frequency in the "2nd 10
bytes" can be without the MHz.

Bob, WB4APR
---------------------------------------
Greg said:

My ftm 350 does not decode the qsy that has no rx freq
in the comment. Example:443.650PA near Pittsburgh shows
on my list but will not qsy with just the T131 RM50.
It ignores the object name and parses from the comment.
All of my objects that i transmit with aprs32 are compliant
with the 350 and are all qsy-able but I dont know about the kenwoods.
Is this confirmed? This is a problem.. And why we need to build a BUG
table for all these issues.

I too have noticed that the 350 does not seem to QSY on some objects that
appear to me (in the mobile anyway) to be correctly formatted. I just
checked, and I cannot see any problems with the formatting of the 443.650PA
object.

Can the Yaesu firmware can be upgraded in the field?

Bob, Wb4aPR


Re: FreqSpec Homework...

Greg Depew
 

the ftm 350 does have to be in vfo for it to qsy. it will not qsy  in memory mode. but it will tx the current memory as a qsy freq if you have it set in the beacon stats text, as long as its a tx-able freq in memory or vfo. KB3KBR Greg


To: aprsisce@...
From: fmhillhouse@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:27:18 -0400
Subject: RE: [aprsisce] Re: FreqSpec Homework...

 

Thanks for looking at it. I worked with the NW-APRS group initially and finally, James of VE6SRV notoriety, to get them worked out. Unfortunately, others just pointed at the spec and said follow it. For a digipeater noob, it was very frustrating to have very knowledgeable be no help! Thanks again James for your help to knit them together and help with my understanding! IIRC, we had the FREQUENCY OBJECT VS POSITION COMMENT conversation a couple of times. Sadly, we will have it again in the future unless this go around burns it into our bran cells. :) Yup, bran! Use to be more brain. :(
 
Everyone missed the r VS R. That doesn't have any affect on QSY or TUNE but still it doesn't match the spec. I will have to head up the hill now.
 
 
On the FTM-350, we did some testing recently and I remember them working but I have asked the three parties to do it again. I do remember some weirdness though. The radio had to be in a specific mode, such as VFO instead of MEMORY, or it would not QSY. When I hear back, I will certainly forward the results.
 
 
Best regards,
Fred, N7FMH
 


From: aprsisce@... [mailto:aprsisce@...] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 16:11
To: aprsisce@...
Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Re: FreqSpec Homework...

 
Yes, the lower-case r is all that jumps to my eyes.  Do you know if an FTM-350 can QSY/Tune to these objects?  If so, it debunks the fact that they need the frequency in the command and not the name.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 5/8/2012 3:55 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
Hi Lynn,
 
 
Below are four FREQUENCY objects I put out. The only thing I see is a lower case r for the range. Would that be all that is NON-COMPLIANT?
 
Thanks!
 
 
Best regards,
Fred, N7FMH
 
 
:;223.900NH*111111z4259.00N/07135.30WrT103 r20m S.Uncan MT
WinMain:2012-05-08T19:09:12.279 Antenna UNCAN(223.900NH)(Kantronics KPC-3 (83)) Frequency:223.900 T:103 range:20.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T103 r20m S.Uncan MT
 
:;147.330NH*111111z4305.16N/07131.39WrT141 r20m S.Bow
WinMain:2012-05-08T19:11:28.093 Antenna UNCAN(147.330NH)(Kantronics KPC-3 (83)) Frequency:147.330 T:141 range:20.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T141 r20m S.Bow
 
:;147.135NH*111111z4258.99N/07135.29WrT100 r20m S.Uncan MT
WinMain:2012-05-08T19:14:17.366 Antenna UNCAN(147.135NH)(Kantronics KPC-3 (83)) Frequency:147.135 T:100 range:20.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T100 r20m S.Uncan MT
 
:;444.200NH*111111z4258.99N/07135.30WrT186 r20m S.Uncan MT
WinMain:2012-05-08T19:06:28.128 Antenna UNCAN(444.200NH)(Kantronics KPC-3 (83)) Frequency:444.200 T:186 range:20.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T186 r20m S.Uncan MT


From: aprsisce@... [mailto:aprsisce@...] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:43
To: aprsisce@...
Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Re: FreqSpec Homework...

 
On 5/8/2012 10:32 AM, apenadragon wrote:

Taking each unique one at a time....

> WinMain:2012-05-08T13:39:03.677 Antenna KA2NDW-1(145.47-/r)(TNC-X de K6DBG (01)) Frequency:145.470 range:30.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:R30M Link 449.075-/r

The R30M is non-compliant. The spec says that m and k are lower case.

> WinMain:2012-05-08T13:39:11.067 Antenna W2SO(147.285/R)(UIview 32 bit (25N)) Frequency:147.285 T:141 *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T141.3

The T141.3 is non-compliant. The spec says that tones do not include
the decimal places because they've been standardized.

> WinMain:2012-05-08T13:39:12.927 Antenna W2SO(147.255/R)(UIview 32 bit (25N)) Frequency:147.255 T:107 *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T107.2 Lancaster Amateur Radio Club

T107.2 is non-compliant as descried above.

> WinMain:2012-05-08T13:45:04.895 Antenna N2ZWO-10(145.110NY)(BEACON) Frequency:145.110 T:167 range:25.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T167 R25M NetM7PM Mtg2ndW

R25M is non-compliant. The spec says that m and k are lower case.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32






Re: FreqSpec Homework...

Greg Depew
 

the ftm 350 does have to be in vfo for it to qsy. it will not qsy  in memory mode. but it will tx the current memory as a qsy freq if you have it set in the beacon stats text, as long as its a tx-able freq in memory or vfo.


To: aprsisce@...
From: fmhillhouse@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:27:18 -0400
Subject: RE: [aprsisce] Re: FreqSpec Homework...

 

Thanks for looking at it. I worked with the NW-APRS group initially and finally, James of VE6SRV notoriety, to get them worked out. Unfortunately, others just pointed at the spec and said follow it. For a digipeater noob, it was very frustrating to have very knowledgeable be no help! Thanks again James for your help to knit them together and help with my understanding! IIRC, we had the FREQUENCY OBJECT VS POSITION COMMENT conversation a couple of times. Sadly, we will have it again in the future unless this go around burns it into our bran cells. :) Yup, bran! Use to be more brain. :(
 
Everyone missed the r VS R. That doesn't have any affect on QSY or TUNE but still it doesn't match the spec. I will have to head up the hill now.
 
 
On the FTM-350, we did some testing recently and I remember them working but I have asked the three parties to do it again. I do remember some weirdness though. The radio had to be in a specific mode, such as VFO instead of MEMORY, or it would not QSY. When I hear back, I will certainly forward the results.
 
 
Best regards,
Fred, N7FMH
 


From: aprsisce@... [mailto:aprsisce@...] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 16:11
To: aprsisce@...
Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Re: FreqSpec Homework...

 
Yes, the lower-case r is all that jumps to my eyes.  Do you know if an FTM-350 can QSY/Tune to these objects?  If so, it debunks the fact that they need the frequency in the command and not the name.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 5/8/2012 3:55 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
Hi Lynn,
 
 
Below are four FREQUENCY objects I put out. The only thing I see is a lower case r for the range. Would that be all that is NON-COMPLIANT?
 
Thanks!
 
 
Best regards,
Fred, N7FMH
 
 
:;223.900NH*111111z4259.00N/07135.30WrT103 r20m S.Uncan MT
WinMain:2012-05-08T19:09:12.279 Antenna UNCAN(223.900NH)(Kantronics KPC-3 (83)) Frequency:223.900 T:103 range:20.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T103 r20m S.Uncan MT
 
:;147.330NH*111111z4305.16N/07131.39WrT141 r20m S.Bow
WinMain:2012-05-08T19:11:28.093 Antenna UNCAN(147.330NH)(Kantronics KPC-3 (83)) Frequency:147.330 T:141 range:20.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T141 r20m S.Bow
 
:;147.135NH*111111z4258.99N/07135.29WrT100 r20m S.Uncan MT
WinMain:2012-05-08T19:14:17.366 Antenna UNCAN(147.135NH)(Kantronics KPC-3 (83)) Frequency:147.135 T:100 range:20.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T100 r20m S.Uncan MT
 
:;444.200NH*111111z4258.99N/07135.30WrT186 r20m S.Uncan MT
WinMain:2012-05-08T19:06:28.128 Antenna UNCAN(444.200NH)(Kantronics KPC-3 (83)) Frequency:444.200 T:186 range:20.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T186 r20m S.Uncan MT


From: aprsisce@... [mailto:aprsisce@...] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:43
To: aprsisce@...
Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Re: FreqSpec Homework...

 
On 5/8/2012 10:32 AM, apenadragon wrote:

Taking each unique one at a time....

> WinMain:2012-05-08T13:39:03.677 Antenna KA2NDW-1(145.47-/r)(TNC-X de K6DBG (01)) Frequency:145.470 range:30.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:R30M Link 449.075-/r

The R30M is non-compliant. The spec says that m and k are lower case.

> WinMain:2012-05-08T13:39:11.067 Antenna W2SO(147.285/R)(UIview 32 bit (25N)) Frequency:147.285 T:141 *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T141.3

The T141.3 is non-compliant. The spec says that tones do not include
the decimal places because they've been standardized.

> WinMain:2012-05-08T13:39:12.927 Antenna W2SO(147.255/R)(UIview 32 bit (25N)) Frequency:147.255 T:107 *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T107.2 Lancaster Amateur Radio Club

T107.2 is non-compliant as descried above.

> WinMain:2012-05-08T13:45:04.895 Antenna N2ZWO-10(145.110NY)(BEACON) Frequency:145.110 T:167 range:25.0mi *NON-COMPLIANT* Comment:T167 R25M NetM7PM Mtg2ndW

R25M is non-compliant. The spec says that m and k are lower case.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32






Re: {Some tags disabled} Re: FREQ OBJECT Uniqueness

James Ewen
 

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@rac.ca> wrote:

I'm still trying to find the time to find all the combinations that
work and don't work with a D72, and I'll post it here and on
the APRS SIG when I'm done.
I'm going to make a chart... we can work on filling it out together.
Still stuck at work though!


I just wanted to jump in and say
that my preference is to have the callsign in the object name.
When I call another
ham, I don't say "hey Lynn on 732 this is VE7GDH". I call
them by callsign. I refer to repeaters the same way. It
doesn't happen so much around here, but some places there
is definitely overlapping coverage and only the tone differentiates
them. Callsigns are a lot more unique than frequencies.
So when I come to visit you, and you tell me to VE7RSI, what frequency
should I have on my VFO? Should I be on 2 metres, 70 cm, 6 metres? How
can I possibly divine a frequency from the callsign? The purpose of
using the frequency in the object name is to have the frequency show
up front and center on the display of the radio, and to have the
frequency shown right on the map. No clicking, no poking to find out
what the hidden frequency is.

Like Bob said, these objects are for the traveller who is unfamiliar
with the area, not just as decoration for the local users.

If you tell me to go to VE7RSI, the first thing I'm going to ask is
"What's the frequency?". If however you tell me to go to 147.320, I'll
head on over... I'm not going to ask "What's the callsign" so that I
can meet you on the repeater.

--
James
VE6SRV


Re: FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

Greg Depew
 

Callsign: KB3KBR-1 with qru server, and yes the rest had the receive  freq ex: 145.230-w (obj name) "145.230MHz T186 -060  W3ZIC L/145.19 & 147.12 Net 2030Hr Mon" , quotes mine,  is qsy'ed correctly.


To: aprsisce@...
From: kj4erj@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:22:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [aprsisce] FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

 
On 5/8/2012 4:18 PM, Greg Depew wrote:
ok, just made a spec approved obj of 144.630 in the name and 145.230rx T123 and my 350 will NOT  qsy to it. I also set it up in my qru and received the rest of my 2m obj which all qsy'ed just fine.

What callsign transmitted these so we can actually eyeball the raw packets?  And I'm assuming "the rest of my 2m obj" had the frequency at the beginning of the comment for the FTM-350 to work?

Lynn (D) - K4JERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

PS.  Note to all: Please sign your messages or at least include a callsign-SSID when referring to a particular station or object.




To: aprsisce@...
From: bruninga@...
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 11:05:56 -0400
Subject: [aprsisce] FTM-350 FREQ OBJ problem?

 
Greg said:

> My ftm 350 does not decode the qsy that has no rx freq
> in the comment. Example:443.650PA near Pittsburgh shows
> on my list but will not qsy with just the T131 RM50.
> It ignores the object name and parses from the comment.
> All of my objects that i transmit with aprs32 are compliant
> with the 350 and are all qsy-able but I dont know about the kenwoods.

Is this confirmed? This is a problem.. And why we need to build a BUG
table for all these issues.

I too have noticed that the 350 does not seem to QSY on some objects that
appear to me (in the mobile anyway) to be correctly formatted. I just
checked, and I cannot see any problems with the formatting of the 443.650PA
object.

Can the Yaesu firmware can be upgraded in the field?

Bob, Wb4aPR




18241 - 18260 of 35493