Date   

Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Brian Webster N2KGC
 

One thing to remember about this experiment, APRS packets are a UI unconnected broadcast and you are not guaranteed delivery of the pack to the other end even if you do use the specific path method you are attempting. There is an exception for message in this regard, but generally it’s not  like using regular packet by specifying the hops and their call signs. Specifying the paths will make it much more likely for it to make it however, mostly due to the fact that all the other generic digi’s will not be rebroadcasting the packets and occupying airtime or causing collisions.

 

The No-Gate or RF only I would not worry about. If a packet gets heard and gated, that is done directly over the internet, so no harm. I-Gates are not repeating your packets back over the air. Not putting the commands in the path will keep the packet shorter and as such give better chances of it getting through without collisions.

 

Your reasons and plan are solid, just understand the limitation. Using specific call signs rather than generic digi path’s is the way to do this for sure. Just don’t expect it to be 100% reliable and it you start using it a lot like a chat channel others will likely notice and possibly say something. The APRS frequency is not well suited as a general packet network system. I see this a lot with the DMR hotspots and such, first someone is gating to RF call signs with non-compliant SSID’s (they use letters) and it seems like each hotspot is kicking out 2 separate objects over the air for the same location. I suspect they are doing both D-Star and DMR and as such their hotspot software sends to different objects to the IS stream. If it was kept on the internet stream that would be great, but someone somewhere in that local area is pushing it to RF and at a beacon rate that is too much for an object that doesn’t move. But that really has nothing to do with your question….

 

Brian N2KGC

 

From: APRSISCE@groups.io [mailto:APRSISCE@groups.io] On Behalf Of Dan Hurd
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 12:10 PM
To: APRSISCE@groups.io
Subject: Re: [APRSISCE] Specific Paths for RFOnly.

 

Thanks Lynn,
For the record I am using Xastir at this moment because the path is really easy to change for this testing . 
I can look at the direwolf output which should be completely raw. 

Dan W5DMH 


Re: Colored bar between Port and Scroller?

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

Got it thank you! 

Dan W5DMH 


Re: Colored bar between Port and Scroller?

Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

Transmit pressure.  When it gets to the end, it should transmit.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 1/7/2022 3:47 PM, Dan Hurd wrote:
What is the colored bar between the Port / Time and the Scroller list indicating? 


Colored bar between Port and Scroller?

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

What is the colored bar between the Port / Time and the Scroller list indicating? 


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

Thanks Lynn,
For the record I am using Xastir at this moment because the path is really easy to change for this testing . 
I can look at the direwolf output which should be completely raw. 

Dan W5DMH 


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Lynn Deffenbaugh
 

It may be that Xastir is filtering the NOGATE before showing you the log of received packets.  You need to be looking at the actual RF received traffic to know if you copied the digipeat.  Double-check that the log you are looking at is showing the raw reception and not a post-processed packet that may be dropping due to NOGATE.

You can probably also listen by ear with another radio on 144.390 (or whatever your local APRS frequency is) to hear what the digipeat sounds like and see if you hear a similar sound with the NOGATE included, regardless of what Xastir's logs show.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 1/7/2022 11:11 AM, Dan Hurd wrote:
Maybe I am looking at success all wrong ....
I am first looking at the live traffic in Xastir to see if the first digi in my path string is receiving it and repeating it. 
I am not seeing a repeat coming out of the designated digi, even when I select one I know I can reach without question....but if I remove the NOGATE the same digi will repeat
I am also looking at the APRS.fi for the digi to see if I am being heard..but the NOGATE would mean that he should not be posting that on APRS.fi correct? 

Dan W5DMH 


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

Yes I'm running direwolf connected to an FT-857d connected to a full wave 2m ant on the top of a 55ft tower...I have internet turned off for this testing. 

Dan W5DMH


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

James Ewen
 

NOGATE means that your packet will not be forwarded to the APRS-IS by compliant I-gates. 

Do NOT look at aprs.fi or other APRS-IS feeds for your information. The APRS-IS feed is heavily filtered, so you will rarely see an accurate account of what is happening on the APRS network. 

Look at raw packets that are heard by your RF connected device. 

I don’t recall if this has been asked or if we know the answer yet. 

Do you have a TNC/radio connected to your station that you are using to communicate with the local APRS RF network?



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 09:11 Dan Hurd <dan@...> wrote:
Maybe I am looking at success all wrong ....
I am first looking at the live traffic in Xastir to see if the first digi in my path string is receiving it and repeating it. 
I am not seeing a repeat coming out of the designated digi, even when I select one I know I can reach without question....but if I remove the NOGATE the same digi will repeat
I am also looking at the APRS.fi for the digi to see if I am being heard..but the NOGATE would mean that he should not be posting that on APRS.fi correct? 

Dan W5DMH 

--
James
VE6SRV


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

Maybe I am looking at success all wrong ....
I am first looking at the live traffic in Xastir to see if the first digi in my path string is receiving it and repeating it. 
I am not seeing a repeat coming out of the designated digi, even when I select one I know I can reach without question....but if I remove the NOGATE the same digi will repeat
I am also looking at the APRS.fi for the digi to see if I am being heard..but the NOGATE would mean that he should not be posting that on APRS.fi correct? 

Dan W5DMH 


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

No I am putting it as the last entry at the end....typical path looks like: 

MAYVIL,JAMTWP,K8FSU,NOGATE 


Dan W5DMH


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

The reason is not so lofty....my buddy has a digi/igate at his location however he is in an area that routinely loses internet and only has one wide digi that can reach him (and that is questionable) 
I want to develop an RF path to him that will allow us to contact each other when his internet is down. 
Seems like it should be far easier than I am experiencing. 


Dan 


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

James Ewen
 

Dan,

Where are you putting NOGATE in your outbound path?

Put it at the end. I suspect you have it as the first hop. 

Digipeaters look at the first unused hop request. If NOGATE is the first hop request, then you will need to have a misconfigured digipeater act upon the NOGATE alias. 



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 08:40 James Ewen via groups.io <ve6srv=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Rob,

You can be sure of the path taken by observing the used path elements in the received packet. 

Of course this means actually looking at the packets received, but if Dan is interested in experimenting like this, then he and his buddy will need to be doing just that. 

I am interested in hearing why Dan is trying this experiment. 

Much more fun than just the usual “I want to tell the world the temperature in my back yard every 5 minutes.” type of stuff. 

Experimenting on RF is the heart of amateur radio!



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 07:26 Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Probably a good idea, if you want it to be RF only.
Otherwise, you can't be sure.

Rob KB8RCO



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 9:19 AM, Dan Hurd
<dan@...> wrote:
Should I have NOGATE in my path to insure it doesn't get gated at the first DIGI ? (These are big wide area digi's that all igate also) 

Dan W5DMH

--
James
VE6SRV

--
James
VE6SRV


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

James Ewen
 

Rob,

You can be sure of the path taken by observing the used path elements in the received packet. 

Of course this means actually looking at the packets received, but if Dan is interested in experimenting like this, then he and his buddy will need to be doing just that. 

I am interested in hearing why Dan is trying this experiment. 

Much more fun than just the usual “I want to tell the world the temperature in my back yard every 5 minutes.” type of stuff. 

Experimenting on RF is the heart of amateur radio!



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 07:26 Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Probably a good idea, if you want it to be RF only.
Otherwise, you can't be sure.

Rob KB8RCO



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 9:19 AM, Dan Hurd
<dan@...> wrote:
Should I have NOGATE in my path to insure it doesn't get gated at the first DIGI ? (These are big wide area digi's that all igate also) 

Dan W5DMH

--
James
VE6SRV


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

I'm struggling with this....NOGATE seems to cause the digi to ignore the packet 
When I remove NOGATE, even though I have a specified path, the local digi will repeat it anyway
I tried RFONLY too and the digis seem to ignore the packets and do not transmit

I have to be doing something wrong, it would seem like this should work. 

Dan W5DMH 


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly

James Ewen
 

Dan,

Like Rob said, if your buddy can hear the third digi, don’t put more path elements in the outbound path. You have a specific station you are aiming to contact, so there is no need to flood an area with your packets where there is no need to do so. 

As stated, if you put specific names digipeaters in your outbound path, then those digipeaters will need to be configured to respond to those requests via the defined path element. Most probably will respond, unless the operator has a non-compliant setting. 

Not only that, but each digipeater will need to be able to copy the full packet with no degradation from collisions or other sources of interference or signal loss. 

Putting NOGATE or RFONLY in the path will stop i-gates that honour those settings from pushing the packet to the APRS-IS stream. 

IF the destination station is able to copy your packet successfully and all stations are compliant, then your buddy will have heard the packet via a completely RF path. 

Your buddy can look at the packet he received and observe the path elements used in the packet to confirm the digipeaters that handled the packet. Again, this is only true if the digipeaters that handled the packet are set up properly. 

Naming the digipeaters to be used was the standard way of using the packet radio network before Bob came up with the idea of using generic aliases that are used to make APRS magic happen. Congratulations on rediscovering packet radio! 😀

Seriously, it’s kind of fun to see someone wondering if this new way to use packet radio will work or not, which in fact was the defacto “only” way packet radio worked in the original incantation. 

So now we come to the question “Why?”  Why are you wanting to use an RFONLY path? Just to see if it can be done? As an experiment to see if you can communicate in an emergency if the internet goes away? Other? 

All of the above are great reasons to test your RF network, and as always amateur radio should be about experimenting and learning. I encourage everyone to try this on their local RF network. You can learn a lot about your local network in this way. 

If your network is interesting enough, you might be able to send a packet on a round trip back to yourself. Pick a path that takes the packet away, and then loops back towards your station via string of digis. You only need to be able to hear the packet at the end of its trip. You can observe the path it took by looking at the used digipeaters list in the raw packet. 

There’s a lot of good information in the raw packets that tells you about the health of your network. 

But if your local network is broken by poor digipeater configurations, overloaded by too many packets, poor user configurations, or otherwise, you may have a tough time making this work. 

Most times when I look into raw packets in an area when looking for a root cause of an issue, I find a poor digipeater network, overloaded digipeaters, misconfigured digipeaters, and more. 

It is rare to find a well planned and implemented digipeater network that isn’t overloaded by poorly configured user traffic. 

Good luck with your experiments. Make sure your buddy tries the same experiments from his end as well!



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 07:19 Dan Hurd <dan@...> wrote:
Should I have NOGATE in my path to insure it doesn't get gated at the first DIGI ? (These are big wide area digi's that all igate also) 

Dan W5DMH

--
James
VE6SRV


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly.

Rob Giuliano
 

Probably a good idea, if you want it to be RF only.
Otherwise, you can't be sure.

Rob KB8RCO



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 9:19 AM, Dan Hurd
<dan@...> wrote:
Should I have NOGATE in my path to insure it doesn't get gated at the first DIGI ? (These are big wide area digi's that all igate also) 

Dan W5DMH


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

Should I have NOGATE in my path to insure it doesn't get gated at the first DIGI ? (These are big wide area digi's that all igate also) 

Dan W5DMH


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly

Rob Giuliano
 

If you reach your destination aftrr K8FSU, you don't need any more path elements - WIDE2-1 will only add to RF.

Now the catch.  If any of those stations don't DIGI your packet, it fails.  Including "not changing their SSID".

Each of those stations MUST
A. be on and able to receive
B. have a setting like DIGIMY TRUE.
     meaning they will DIGI packets with their callsign in the path.  Most, but not all, do that.

Rob KB8RCO


On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 9:05 AM, Dan Hurd
<dan@...> wrote:
So I have MAYVIL close to me and I know MAYVIL can reach JAMTWP and I know JAMTWP can reach K8FSU and I know K8FSU can reach my buddy KE8OHG

So my path should be simply  "MAYVIL,JAMTWP, K8FSU, WIDE2-1"   ? 

Dan W5DMH


 


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly

Dan Hurd W5DMH
 

So I have MAYVIL close to me and I know MAYVIL can reach JAMTWP and I know JAMTWP can reach K8FSU and I know K8FSU can reach my buddy KE8OHG

So my path should be simply  "MAYVIL,JAMTWP, K8FSU, WIDE2-1"   ? 

Dan W5DMH


 


Re: Specific Paths for RFOnly

Adam Mahnke
 

Morning Dan,

Yes it will.

you can also do it for specific objects. 

Keep in mind that any station that can hear one of the stations in that path will hear it, but it should only be repeated by the next one in line. 

Adam
KC2ANT

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 8:04 AM Dan Hurd <dan@...> wrote:
Yes I know where to set the path, the question is will it work if I put specific digi names in the path? 

73 Dan W5DMH 

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