Plate Tectonics & hominoid splittings?


Marc Verhaegen
 

India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Tethys=Med.Sea.

The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids (E):
-- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith etc.) + inland along rivers.
HPG in Red Sea.

E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma:
G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis ->Pleist. Pr.boisei.

Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma? = Zanclean flood??:
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.


??


 

Marc,
I agree with you 100% on the OWM on India for an allopatric speciation into the tailless Apes. The stem Hylobates landed in SE Asia where great apes were created.

The ancestor of all four extent great Apes (Orang, Gorilla, Chimp and Human) radiated from SE Asia, NOT Africa. Homo’s ancestor left on India and did not return until 1.8mya.

-Jack

On Mar 26, 2022, at 7:50 AM, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:


India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Tethys=Med.Sea.

The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids (E):
-- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith etc.) + inland along rivers.
HPG in Red Sea.

E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma:
G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis ->Pleist. Pr.boisei.

Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma? = Zanclean flood??:
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.


??




--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group


alandarwinvanarsdale
 

It is not known where the Hominid began geographically. It did seem very unlikely to be all or in part Africa. Now there is some fossil evidence it might have been partly in Africa. The oldest hylobatid now is South Asia, no evidence they were every in Africa or came from Africa. That is one of the most importation refutations of Hominids beginning exclusively in Africa. Hylobatids are certainly the closest living relatives of Hominids. Eurasia appears much more the center of origins and development of Hominids than Africa. ______________________________________________________________________________________________Before large monkeys like Proconsul were thought to be proto-apes. They are not, though now there is some evidence they had some input into Hominids such as HGT or even inter-specific introgression. The same is true for pliopithecoids, which are now known just a little from Africa. Essentially in some cases large bodied monkeys, not ancestral to Hominids, but with some evidence of some input into Hominids even Hominins. __________________________________________________________________________________________________Some pliopithecoids, the fossil record suggests, may have been the first terrestrial bipedal primates. Pliopithecoids are not even Old World monkeys, they are just general early divergent monkeys, and have traits of both Old and New World monkeys as plesiomorphs. And they share a lot of dental morphology with australopiths, too much for coincidence or convergence perhaps.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Jack D.Barnes
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 11:05 AM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Plate Tectonics & hominoid splittings?

 

Marc,

I agree with you 100% on the OWM on India for an allopatric speciation into the tailless Apes.  The stem Hylobates landed in SE Asia where great apes were created.  

 

The ancestor of all four extent great Apes (Orang, Gorilla, Chimp and Human) radiated from SE Asia, NOT Africa.  Homo’s ancestor left on India and did not return until 1.8mya.

 

-Jack

 

 

> On Mar 26, 2022, at 7:50 AM, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:

>

> 

> India under Asia:

> 1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,

> 2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),

> 3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):

> -- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,

> -- gr.apes along the Tethys=Med.Sea.

>

> The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids (E):

> -- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,

> -- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith etc.) + inland along rivers.

> HPG in Red Sea.

>

> E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma:

> G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis ->Pleist. Pr.boisei.

>

> Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma? = Zanclean flood??:

> - Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,

> - Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.

>

>

> ??

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

--

Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group

 

 

 

 

 


fceska_gr
 

I have a new theory of what caused the ape/OWM split, and I think it happened in East Africa.

25+ Ma continental plate tectonics pushed up against East Africa starting to form the rift. This pushed the eastern seaboard upwards and caused rivers to run backwards, forming the great East African lakes. It would also have flooded the forests and created forested islands, especially in and around lake Victoria. (Roberts, et al., 2012)
The earliest fossil evidence comes from 2 species, dating to 25.2 Ma from the Rift Basin of Tanzania: Rukwapithecus fleaglei appears to be more hominoid whereas Nsungwepithecus gunnelli appears to be more OWM (Stevens, et al., 2013).
I believe the apes diverged by becoming more aquarboareal, climbing down the trunks to exploit newly available niches in the flooded forests, while the monkeys remained more arboreal. Over time these apes became bigger in size, more orthograde, longer armed, flatter thoraxes, etc. and they lost their tails. (Verhaegen, et al.)
Morotopithecus at 21 Ma represents one of the first fully orthograde apes.
Sometime between 22 - 18 Ma they Hylobatids diverged. Their ancestor made their way to Asia, perhaps over the gomphotherium land bridge (20-19 Ma), and it was there that they returned to the tree tops, became smaller, etc. (Hence why no hylobatids in Africa).

Hominoid apes, e.g. Helipithecus, occupied the Arabian continent / coastal forests around 17 - 16 Ma.
Some form of Griphopithecus made it all the way to central Europe by 16.5 Ma and apes diversified into many different species between 16- 11 Ma, mostly Aquarboreal, orthograde and always close to water. (Europe was very hot, flooded, wet at that time - many inland seas). It was around that time that Pongo diverged and set off for Asia.
11 - 9 Ma - Vallesian crisis - (loss of forest, increase in grassland savannah, arrival of many predators, seasonal food availability) caused most apes to go extinct. A few survived into the late Miocene.
Ouranopithecus (9.8 Ma) may be a branch of the gorilla line that returned to Africa, c. 10 Ma. (de Bonis, et al.)
Graecopithecus (7.2 Ma) may have been close to the LCA of Pan/Homo. (Fuss, Boheme, Spassov, et al, 2017)
Trachilos shows bipedal hominines in Crete 6.0 Ma. (Gierlinski / Spassov, et al.)
5.9 - 5.3 Ma - the Messinian Salinity Crisis - time to leave!

5.3 Ma - the Zanclean flood cut off the route between Arabia and Africa.
Those that made it across to Africa before the flood followed the African coast of the Red Sea, followed the Rift and eventually all the way down to South Africa, becoming over time less semi-aquatic / more arboreal (Pan).
Those that didn't make it across in time, colonised the Arabian coast of the Red Sea throughout the Pliocene, becoming increasingly aquatic (Homo).
2.6 Ma, Pleistocene cooling and drop in sea-levels.
Pan/Homo come together again at the southern end of the Red Sea / Afar / Rift Valley = Homo habilis
2.5 - 2.0 Ma - the great radiation of Homo out of the Red Sea (north to Georgia, East to China / Indonesia, West to Africa, etc.) (Mansfield, 😊 2022)

Francesca

-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Marc Verhaegen
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 2:50 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] Plate Tectonics & hominoid splittings?


India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became
aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Tethys=Med.Sea.

The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids
(E):
-- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith
etc.) + inland along rivers.
HPG in Red Sea.

E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma:
G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis
->Pleist. Pr.boisei.

Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma? = Zanclean flood??:
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.


??


fceska_gr
 

I don't know why the first paragraph was reformatted after sending. Let me try that again...

Prior to 25 Ma continental plate tectonics pushed up against East Africa starting to form the rift. This pushed the eastern seaboard upwards and caused rivers to run backwards, forming the great East African lakes. It would also have flooded the forests and created forested islands, especially in and around Lake Victoria. (Roberts, et al., 2012)

F.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of fceska_gr via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 5:24 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Plate Tectonics & hominoid splittings?

I have a new theory of what caused the ape/OWM split, and I think it happened in East Africa.

25+ Ma continental plate tectonics pushed up against East Africa
25+ starting to form the rift. This pushed the eastern seaboard upwards
25+ and caused rivers to run backwards, forming the great East African
25+ lakes. It would also have flooded the forests and created forested
25+ islands, especially in and around lake Victoria. (Roberts, et al.,
25+ 2012)
The earliest fossil evidence comes from 2 species, dating to 25.2 Ma from the Rift Basin of Tanzania: Rukwapithecus fleaglei appears to be more hominoid whereas Nsungwepithecus gunnelli appears to be more OWM (Stevens, et al., 2013).
I believe the apes diverged by becoming more aquarboareal, climbing down the trunks to exploit newly available niches in the flooded forests, while the monkeys remained more arboreal. Over time these apes became bigger in size, more orthograde, longer armed, flatter thoraxes, etc. and they lost their tails. (Verhaegen, et al.) Morotopithecus at 21 Ma represents one of the first fully orthograde apes.
Sometime between 22 - 18 Ma they Hylobatids diverged. Their ancestor made their way to Asia, perhaps over the gomphotherium land bridge (20-19 Ma), and it was there that they returned to the tree tops, became smaller, etc. (Hence why no hylobatids in Africa).

Hominoid apes, e.g. Helipithecus, occupied the Arabian continent / coastal forests around 17 - 16 Ma.
Some form of Griphopithecus made it all the way to central Europe by 16.5 Ma and apes diversified into many different species between 16- 11 Ma, mostly Aquarboreal, orthograde and always close to water. (Europe was very hot, flooded, wet at that time - many inland seas). It was around that time that Pongo diverged and set off for Asia.
11 - 9 Ma - Vallesian crisis - (loss of forest, increase in grassland savannah, arrival of many predators, seasonal food availability) caused most apes to go extinct. A few survived into the late Miocene.
Ouranopithecus (9.8 Ma) may be a branch of the gorilla line that returned to Africa, c. 10 Ma. (de Bonis, et al.) Graecopithecus (7.2 Ma) may have been close to the LCA of Pan/Homo. (Fuss, Boheme, Spassov, et al, 2017) Trachilos shows bipedal hominines in Crete 6.0 Ma. (Gierlinski / Spassov, et al.)
5.9 - 5.3 Ma - the Messinian Salinity Crisis - time to leave!

5.3 Ma - the Zanclean flood cut off the route between Arabia and Africa.
Those that made it across to Africa before the flood followed the African coast of the Red Sea, followed the Rift and eventually all the way down to South Africa, becoming over time less semi-aquatic / more arboreal (Pan).
Those that didn't make it across in time, colonised the Arabian coast of the Red Sea throughout the Pliocene, becoming increasingly aquatic (Homo).
2.6 Ma, Pleistocene cooling and drop in sea-levels.
Pan/Homo come together again at the southern end of the Red Sea / Afar / Rift Valley = Homo habilis
2.5 - 2.0 Ma - the great radiation of Homo out of the Red Sea (north to Georgia, East to China / Indonesia, West to Africa, etc.) (Mansfield, 😊 2022)

Francesca

-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Marc Verhaegen
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 2:50 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] Plate Tectonics & hominoid splittings?


India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became
aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Tethys=Med.Sea.

The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids
(E):
-- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith
etc.) + inland along rivers.
HPG in Red Sea.

E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma:
G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis
->Pleist. Pr.boisei.

Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma? = Zanclean flood??:
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.


??


Marc Verhaegen
 

Not impossible perhaps, but more likely IMO is this:

India under Asia = unique situation: lots of swamp/mangrove forests,
India in the middle of where apes live,
India further under Asia = great/lesser ape split = W/E = Med Sea / Ind.Ocean,
Mesopotamian Seaway closure split hominids/pongids = W/E,
-pongids followed coasts along Ind.Ocean -> Hylobatids higher into tree,
-hominids in Med & Red Sea, HPG in Red Sea,
-8 Ma = Rift fm = G/HP: G along Rift ->Lucy etc.
-5 Ma = opening Red Sea -> Ind.Ocean?
P along E.Afr.coast, H along S.Asian coast.
Simple, no?

When we didn't agree, Elaine said: let's agree to disagree... :-)

______

Van: f-ceska@...
Aan: AAT@groups.io
Verzonden: zondag 27 maart 2022 16:26
Onderwerp: Re: [AAT] Plate Tectonics & hominoid splittings?

I don't know why the first paragraph was reformatted after sending. Let me try that again...

Prior to 25 Ma continental plate tectonics pushed up against East Africa starting to form the rift. This pushed the eastern seaboard upwards and caused rivers to run backwards, forming the great East African lakes. It would also have flooded the forests and created forested islands, especially in and around Lake Victoria. (Roberts, et al., 2012)

F.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of fceska_gr via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 5:24 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Plate Tectonics & hominoid splittings?

I have a new theory of what caused the ape/OWM split, and I think it happened in East Africa.

25+ Ma continental plate tectonics pushed up against East Africa
25+ starting to form the rift. This pushed the eastern seaboard upwards
25+ and caused rivers to run backwards, forming the great East African
25+ lakes. It would also have flooded the forests and created forested
25+ islands, especially in and around lake Victoria. (Roberts, et al.,
25+ 2012)
The earliest fossil evidence comes from 2 species, dating to 25.2 Ma from the Rift Basin of Tanzania: Rukwapithecus fleaglei appears to be more hominoid whereas Nsungwepithecus gunnelli appears to be more OWM (Stevens, et al., 2013).
I believe the apes diverged by becoming more aquarboareal, climbing down the trunks to exploit newly available niches in the flooded forests, while the monkeys remained more arboreal. Over time these apes became bigger in size, more orthograde, longer armed, flatter thoraxes, etc. and they lost their tails. (Verhaegen, et al.) Morotopithecus at 21 Ma represents one of the first fully orthograde apes.
Sometime between 22 - 18 Ma they Hylobatids diverged. Their ancestor made their way to Asia, perhaps over the gomphotherium land bridge (20-19 Ma), and it was there that they returned to the tree tops, became smaller, etc. (Hence why no hylobatids in Africa).

Hominoid apes, e.g. Helipithecus, occupied the Arabian continent / coastal forests around 17 - 16 Ma.
Some form of Griphopithecus made it all the way to central Europe by 16.5 Ma and apes diversified into many different species between 16- 11 Ma, mostly Aquarboreal, orthograde and always close to water. (Europe was very hot, flooded, wet at that time - many inland seas). It was around that time that Pongo diverged and set off for Asia.
11 - 9 Ma - Vallesian crisis - (loss of forest, increase in grassland savannah, arrival of many predators, seasonal food availability) caused most apes to go extinct. A few survived into the late Miocene.
Ouranopithecus (9.8 Ma) may be a branch of the gorilla line that returned to Africa, c. 10 Ma. (de Bonis, et al.) Graecopithecus (7.2 Ma) may have been close to the LCA of Pan/Homo. (Fuss, Boheme, Spassov, et al, 2017) Trachilos shows bipedal hominines in Crete 6.0 Ma. (Gierlinski / Spassov, et al.)
5.9 - 5.3 Ma - the Messinian Salinity Crisis - time to leave!

5.3 Ma - the Zanclean flood cut off the route between Arabia and Africa.
Those that made it across to Africa before the flood followed the African coast of the Red Sea, followed the Rift and eventually all the way down to South Africa, becoming over time less semi-aquatic / more arboreal (Pan).
Those that didn't make it across in time, colonised the Arabian coast of the Red Sea throughout the Pliocene, becoming increasingly aquatic (Homo).
2.6 Ma, Pleistocene cooling and drop in sea-levels.
Pan/Homo come together again at the southern end of the Red Sea / Afar / Rift Valley = Homo habilis
2.5 - 2.0 Ma - the great radiation of Homo out of the Red Sea (north to Georgia, East to China / Indonesia, West to Africa, etc.) (Mansfield, 😊 2022)

Francesca

-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Marc Verhaegen
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 2:50 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] Plate Tectonics & hominoid splittings?


India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became
aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Tethys=Med.Sea.

The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids
(E):
-- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith
etc.) + inland along rivers.
HPG in Red Sea.

E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma:
G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis
->Pleist. Pr.boisei.

Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma? = Zanclean flood??:
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.


??