Date   

New world oyster catchers

Gareth Morgan
 

In North America, the highest single site totals come from Florida's Gulf Coast, the researchers found.

The study estimates that an island called Mound Key in Estero Bay contains the shells of some 18.6 billion oysters harvested by the region's Calusa tribe. 

About 200 miles north in Cedar Key, Florida, a site known simply as Shell Mound features the remains of an estimated 2.1 billion oysters. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10778929/Indigenous-peoples-globally-harvested-billions-oysters-sustainably.html
The new paper expands on a 2004 paper which documented the collapses of 28 oyster fisheries located along the east and west coasts of North America and Australia's east coast.
www.dailymail.co.uk
G.


Re: Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies

Gareth Morgan
 

 born with fur, but quickly lose this and replace it with fat

All seals and sealions have two layers of fur. Outer guard hairs and a soft insulating underlayer. The pups lose their fluffy baby coat when that adult coat develops. They just look sleek when wet so it looks like dolphin skin. So they fit in with your polar bears and beavers.

"Seals have two layers of barb-like hair : a visible outer layer that is comprised of long, dark hairs and an inner, down-like layer of underfur. Referred to as “guard hairs,” the outer hairs keep the inner layer warm and dry. The hairs have a barbed structure that helps them stick together, seal in air, and heat." https://www.neaq.org/blog/the-physics-of-fur-seal-hair/

Sorry it's a physics site 😉

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska@...>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 6:10 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies
 

“Why are some littoral beasts fur covered (i.e. beavers) and others nearly naked (elephants, rhinos, hippos)?”

 

The pattern seems to show that all fully aquatic mammals lose their fur (cetaceans), semi-aquatic or historically semi-aquatic mammals in tropical or subtropical zones lose their fur (hippos, elephants, rhinos, pigs), while semi-aquatic mammals in colder areas adapt their fur to make it waterproof (polar bears, beavers, voles, etc.) Seal pups that are born on land in arctic conditions are born with fur, but quickly lose this and replace it with fat by the time they enter the water. Fur is obviously an important insulator in cold environments if anytime is spent on land, so beavers could not do away with it completely.

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of alandarwinvanarsdale
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 6:00 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies

 

Aquatic mammals with hair usually have little hair that does not affect much or hair of types which keep the skin dry. Hominids do not have the type of hair which can keep the skin dry. 

 

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 3:02 AM Gareth Morgan <garethmorgan@...> wrote:

Thanks Nancy.

I have a similar idea about hairlessness, but concerning mud fever (leptospirosis), which affects fertility and can be fatal, while fungal infections seem to be less so. Details here -- https://www.academia.edu/40664984/The_Acheulean_hand_axe_a_toolmakers_perspective  -- at the end of the section headed Now eat your clam.

 

G.

 

 


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of Nancy Bovee via groups.io <empress9=aol.com@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 11:29 AM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies

 

My theory has long been that fungal infections drove hairlessness. Features don't evolve to do something. Lethal features kill off those without a less lethal feature - such as hairlessness. but it's still conjecture. Why are some littoral beasts fur covered (i.e. beavers) and others nearly naked (elephants, rhinos, hippos)? 

 

I do think it has something to do with lethality during infancy.

 

Nancy Bovee


Re: Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies

fceska_gr
 

“Why are some littoral beasts fur covered (i.e. beavers) and others nearly naked (elephants, rhinos, hippos)?”

 

The pattern seems to show that all fully aquatic mammals lose their fur (cetaceans), semi-aquatic or historically semi-aquatic mammals in tropical or subtropical zones lose their fur (hippos, elephants, rhinos, pigs), while semi-aquatic mammals in colder areas adapt their fur to make it waterproof (polar bears, beavers, voles, etc.) Seal pups that are born on land in arctic conditions are born with fur, but quickly lose this and replace it with fat by the time they enter the water. Fur is obviously an important insulator in cold environments if anytime is spent on land, so beavers could not do away with it completely.

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of alandarwinvanarsdale
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 6:00 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies

 

Aquatic mammals with hair usually have little hair that does not affect much or hair of types which keep the skin dry. Hominids do not have the type of hair which can keep the skin dry. 

 

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 3:02 AM Gareth Morgan <garethmorgan@...> wrote:

Thanks Nancy.

I have a similar idea about hairlessness, but concerning mud fever (leptospirosis), which affects fertility and can be fatal, while fungal infections seem to be less so. Details here -- https://www.academia.edu/40664984/The_Acheulean_hand_axe_a_toolmakers_perspective  -- at the end of the section headed Now eat your clam.

 

G.

 

 


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of Nancy Bovee via groups.io <empress9=aol.com@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 11:29 AM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies

 

My theory has long been that fungal infections drove hairlessness. Features don't evolve to do something. Lethal features kill off those without a less lethal feature - such as hairlessness. but it's still conjecture. Why are some littoral beasts fur covered (i.e. beavers) and others nearly naked (elephants, rhinos, hippos)? 

 

I do think it has something to do with lethality during infancy.

 

Nancy Bovee


Re: Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies

alandarwinvanarsdale
 

Aquatic mammals with hair usually have little hair that does not affect much or hair of types which keep the skin dry. Hominids do not have the type of hair which can keep the skin dry. 


On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 3:02 AM Gareth Morgan <garethmorgan@...> wrote:
Thanks Nancy.
I have a similar idea about hairlessness, but concerning mud fever (leptospirosis), which affects fertility and can be fatal, while fungal infections seem to be less so. Details here -- https://www.academia.edu/40664984/The_Acheulean_hand_axe_a_toolmakers_perspective  -- at the end of the section headed Now eat your clam.

G.



From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of Nancy Bovee via groups.io <empress9=aol.com@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 11:29 AM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Ticks, Hair Loss, and Non-Clinging Babies
 
My theory has long been that fungal infections drove hairlessness. Features don't evolve to do something. Lethal features kill off those without a less lethal feature - such as hairlessness. but it's still conjecture. Why are some littoral beasts fur covered (i.e. beavers) and others nearly naked (elephants, rhinos, hippos)? 

I do think it has something to do with lethality during infancy.

Nancy Bovee


Re: Graecopith = savanna animal?

fceska_gr
 

extant African great apes are evidenced by the fossil record to be of Sub-Saharan origins”

 

The fossil record suggests that Hominids with greater ability to travel during deforested periods, by desert, non arboreal environments or beaches and rivers, repopulated deforested areas where Hominids went extinct in the Upper Miocene, and formed genetic links with surviving pockets of Hominids by introgressions upon contact.”

 

“Graecopithecus appears to have introgresed well after initial divergence with Pan like North of the Sahara great apes”

 

Please could you reference the evidence are you referring to?

 

Thanks,

F.

 

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of alandarwinvanarsdale
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 5:39 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Graecopith = savanna animal?

 

While Hominin origins are not evidenced to be of Sub-Saharan, extant African great apes are evidenced by the fossil record to be of Sub-Saharan origins. Some European fossil great apes are more Pan like than anything known from Asia. Lufengpithecus morphologically is the most Hominin like, and orangutan like o any known great ape extant or fossil. And also shares sub-nasal morphology with African great apes. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________The fossil record suggests that Hominids with greater ability to travel during deforested periods, by desert, non arboreal environments or beaches and rivers, repopulated deforested areas where Hominids went extinct in the Upper Miocene, and formed genetic links with surviving pockets of Hominids by introgressions upon contact. Not a linear progression from Lufengpithecus to Hominins or orangutans and certainly Hominins did not evolve in a linear fashion from ancestral African great apes. _________________________________________________________________________________________________Graeacopithecus does not appear closely related to Pan, Graecopithecus appears to have introgresed well after initial divergence with Pan like North of the Sahara great apes. Early terrestrial bipedal Hominids in Africa appear to have been much more Gorilla like (Sahelanthropus especially) than Hominin like. African terrestrial bipedal Hominids became more Hominin like later as seen in australopithecines,which are hybrids of unknown Lufengpithecus close affinity Hominins from the North and East and African terrestrial bipedal great apes. ________________________________________________________________________________________________Short periods of genetic isolation between different gene pools of Hominids especially in the Upper Miocene, led to each gene pool being more distinct than before from the others until they made contact again and gene flow between the groups was reestablished. Orangutans unlike all other great apes in the period of around 4-9 mya maintained genetic isolation from both other great apes and Hominins so were unlike other Asiatic great apes (Meganthropus, Gigantopithecus, Lufengpithecus) were not assimilated genetically by Hominins. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________African great apes (ancestral Pan and Gorilla) were assimilated by Hominins in their terrestrial bipedal morphotypes (to become australopiths) and not in their more arboreal morphotypes though there was enough mixing extant African great apes have the ability to be bipedal at least in many individuals if bipedalism starts before full maturity, both in the wild and in captivity. _________________________________________________________________________________________________The fossil record for early Hominins is so incomplete it is impossible to place their geographic origins except they were Old World and not Sub-Saharan. Probably the origins of the earliest Hominins was very wide spread as a sort of Hominid adaptation to wide-spread deforestation and competition with monkeys in the Upper Miocene. 

 

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 3:45 AM fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska=odysseysailing.gr@groups.io> wrote:

Böhme and her team are using the savannah like conditions of southern Greece as an argument that bipedalism arose on European savannah, thereby trying to reinvoke the savannah hypothesis in a new format, but they also write extensively about the clear evidence of water in the region without attributing it at all to hominin adaptations. Based on their papers and her book, I've written:

------

Graecopithecus freybergi, aka “El Greco”, is known from a mandible specimen found in 1944 near Athens, and a single fossil tooth found in Bulgaria in 2012. Graecopithecus lived approximately 7.1 – 7.3 million years ago at the beginning of the Messinian age, or the Tortonian-Messinian boundary.  It has some similarities with Ouranopithecus, enough for some to classify it as a sister or daughter taxon, but there are enough differences to justify giving it its own niche.  The jaw fossil shows that Graecopithecus had relatively small canines with shorter, more convergent roots, which is a characteristic of humans but not of great apes. The roots of chimpanzee canines are more splayed.

It has been suggested that El Greco might represent the last common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans, or even perhaps the first human ancestor after splitting from chimpanzees, and this despite the fact that it lived in Europe instead of Africa. Jochen Fuss from the Seckenberg Centre for Human Evolution and Palaeoenvironment, Tübingen, Germany, Madelaine Böhme of the University of Tübingen, and David Begun, authors of the Graecopithecus study paper, believe that El Greco provides enough evidence to consider that gorillas, chimpanzees and humans may all have diverged in Europe and each migrated to Africa separately. Certainly, the evidence suggests that Graecopithecus was closer to hominins than Ouranopithecus: “We present evidence that Graecopithecus shares derived characters with hominins not found in Ouranopithecus. The most parsimonious interpretation of this distribution of characters is that Ouranopithecus predates the divergence of hominins and Graecopithecus.” 

In her book, Ancient Bones, Madelaine Böhme describes the environment that Graecopithecus likely inhabited. The single tooth from Bulgaria was found in the Upper Thrace Basin, which was filled by fluvial sediments, indicating a heavy water content. El Greco’s fossil jawbone was found at Pyrgos, Vassilis, in the Athens basin, surrounded on three sides by mountains and the coastline of the Saronic gulf to the south. It was lying about 1650 feet west of the paleo Kifissos river, which would have collected all the rainfall from the mountains and carried it out to the sea. In Pyrgos, Böhme’s team observed coarse gravel where the bones were found indicating that the Kifissos River at one time ran through that area before changing course. Signs that a large body of water, perhaps a lake, had once existed there were seen in the stone layers. Stratigraphic analysis of the rock layers shows that water ran throughout the basin for many millions of years. Numerous springs would have bubbled out of the surrounding limestone rock, and braided streams would have meandered across the basin to join the river on its way to the sea. During rainy periods there was so much water that much of the area would have been swampy marshland, with up to 24 inches, 600 litres per m2 falling per year in winter and spring, up to 33% more rainfall than today, while in the summer, the marshes would have dried out and encouraged savannah conditions.

The type environment of the basin is described as “species rich Mediterranean shrub savannah”. Based on analysis of soils and fossilised plant material, during El Greco’s time the landscape would have consisted of open spaces with tall tropical and sub-tropical grasses like those found today in Africa, and grassy meadows with dense pockets of plane tree, oak, and cypress woodland, as well as shrubs: holly, myrtle, tamarisk, ground elder, thistle and other herbaceous plants, all fringed by thick oak forest, palm, and pine trees. The temperature was on average 30 degrees centigrade, or 4 degrees warmer than current averages. Savannah fires during the dry season occasionally ravaged the landscape, as evidenced by tiny particles of fossilised charcoal, while heavy clouds of red Saharan dust blew over the Mediterranean, embedding El Greco’s bones in a thick layer of red mud.

As well as Graecopithecus, many species of fauna, similar to those found in Africa today, found their niche in this well-watered and nutrient rich environment. Large pig-sized hyraxes, gigantic elephant-like dinotherium and various species of suid (pig) would have foraged on the riverbanks or wallowed in the marshes, while short legged chilotherium rhinoceros, short-necked and long-necked giraffes, many species of antelopes, gazelles and 3-toed hipparion horses would have grazed in the meadows and open grasslands or clustered at the streams to drink. Enormous sabre-toothed cats would have selected out the weakest and sickest animals, sending panicked herds in all directions as they hunted, while hyenas and vultures scavenged and cleared up the dead and dying.

Analysis of Graecopithecus’ dentition showed that many of the teeth were worn down, and pushed tightly together, a sign that the individual was accustomed to eating tough, fibrous plant matter. Thick clusters of enormous cattails, up to 4 metres tall, would have grown out of the streams and riverbeds, along with rushes and sedges. Cattails would have formed a significant portion of El Greco’s diet. The stalks, shoots, flowers, leaves, roots and pollen are all edible, tasty and satisfying, although the stalks and leaves would have taken considerable chewing. They would have been available year-round, providing a good source of starches, proteins, sugars and vitamins. In addition, starchy acorns and many wild vegetables, such as sorrel, chickweed, purslane, sedge, ground elder, brassicas, and edible weeds likely formed part of Graecopithecus’ diet, along with insects, water snails, crustaceans or shellfish. According to Böhme, El Greco’s diet would have been closer to modern humans than to modern great apes.

Unfortunately, there are no post-cranial fossils of Graecopithecus so we cannot form much of a picture of how it moved, although its close affinity with Ouranopithecus, as well as the open landscape it lived in, suggests it was in all likelihood predominantly bipedal. Böhme argues that the open savannah-like landscape that Graecopithecus inhabited could be used to support previous savannah hypotheses of how hominins developed bipedalism, only this time, in Europe instead of Africa. With forests mostly gone and few wooded areas to provide refuge, it is likely that El Greco would have lost many of its arboreal features and spent much of its time out in the open, but the same problems that a defenceless hominin might have experienced out on the open savannah in Africa would also apply in Europe. With so many fast-running carnivorous predators, what hope for a bipedal ape? What Böhme and many others fail to consider, is that the water itself likely played a significant role, not only in how Graecopithecus adapted to a form of sustained terrestrial bipedalism, from wading through waist level streams to get to the cattails, but also in how it managed to survive and escape predation when it could no longer seek refuge in the trees. The dense islands of cattails themselves would have provided almost impenetrable barriers to terrestrial hunters.

To sum up, Graecopithecus potentially represents the oldest hominin so far recorded, and possibly the oldest habitual biped with diet and dentition more similar to ours than to chimpanzees. The only problem with it being accepted as a potential human ancestor is that it was not found in Africa. As stated by Böhme, Fuss, et al: “It is clear that if Graecopithecus were found in Africa instead of Europe, its age and morphology would be taken as evidence that it is the earliest known hominin. Chororapithecus is accepted by many as an early gorilla, despite a very fragmentary sample and the fact that much more complete fossils with gorilla-like attributes are known from Europe. But it is from Africa, where the earliest gorillas are supposed to be. The real problem is not morphology or preservation but a location that does not conform to the expectations of generations of palaeoanthropologists.”

--------------------------

Francesca


-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Marc Verhaegen
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 6:33 PM
To: aat@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] Graecopith = savanna animal?

Messinian age and savannah environment of the possible hominin Graecopithecus from Europe Madelaine Böhme  cs 2017  doi org/10.1371/journal.pone.0177347

Dating  fossil hominids & reconstructing their environments is critically  important for understanding human evolution.
Here we date the  potentially oldest hominin, Graecop.freybergi from Europe, we constrain the environmental conditions under which it thrived.
For the Graecopithecus-bearing  Pikermi Fm of Attica/Greece, a saline aeolian dust deposit of  N.African (Sahara) provenance, we obtain an age of 7.37–7.11 Ma (co-eval with a dramatic cooling in the Med.region at the Tortonian-Messinian transition).
Palaeo-botanic proxies demonstrate  C4-grass-dominated wooded grassland-to-woodland habitats of a savannah  biome for the Pikermi Fm.
Faunal turnover at the  Tortonian-Messinian transition led to the spread of new mammalian taxa  along with Graecopithecus into Europe.
The type mandible of G.freybergi  from Pyrgos (7.175 Ma) & the single tooth (7.24 Ma) from Azmaka  (Bulgaria) represent the first hominids of Messinian age from  continental Europe.
Our results suggest that major splits in the hominid  family occurred outside Africa.









Re: 2008 Paper on Human Uniqueness compared to

alandarwinvanarsdale
 

There is ample film evidence that all types of extant great apes learn to swim on their own if given access to water. For decades there have been reports with some photographic evidence wild orangutans can swim long distances. Western paleoanthropology falsely assumed great apes can not swim based only upon the fact great apes can be contained by moats at zoos. Which is due to the fact that zoo animals in general have a strong tendency to not want to go far from where they are fed. 


On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 7:54 AM Jack D.Barnes <needininfo@...> wrote:
All, I enjoyed this 2008 paper by Evan Eichler from 2008.   Science searches for similarities to PGO rather than focusing on our completely uniqueness, which of course includes our ability to swim.

https://chd.ucsd.edu/_files/fall2008/Varki.2008.NRG.pdf




-Jack



--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group






Re: On the Nose

Gareth Morgan
 



Adult proboscis monkey (f.) (I've just learned that Proboscis monkeys have a nasal valve anyway, so the shape of their noses is irrelevant to water ingress.)


I can’t really follow your logic.

Not logic. Physics. You must have seen the back of your car covered in dust when driving on dusty Greek tracks. You might think you can drive fast enough to leave the dust behind, but that only makes it worse. Slipstream effect. Called drafting in sport. This might make it clear what a powerful effect it is. (if you want to know about it). Hugely decreases the energy needed for swimming/cycling.



When I swim with goggles, not only my nose, but my sinuses fill up with water, only to pour out embarrassingly, hours later when I bend over, especially if I dive down a few times. It's no inconvenience when swimming though. Hardly an existential issue.

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska@...>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 4:56 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] On the Nose
 

Adult proboscis monkey

 

As for the rest, I can’t really follow your logic. It seems pretty obvious to me that the hood of the nose somehow protects the nostrils when swimming. All I can say, is next time you go for a swim, face down in the water, without a mask, see if water enters your nostrils, moving forward or not. Obviously you can’t compare that to not having a hooded nose unless you remove the appendage first – not recommended! 😊

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gareth Morgan
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 4:22 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] On the Nose

 

 it would be clearer to talk about whether the nostrils are facing into the water flow or away from the water flow.

 

That's what I meant by "the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement".

 

 

 

would make swimming and diving easier than if the nostrils opened directly onto the face

 

Yet the proboscis monkey manages perfectly well with forward-facing nostrils.

 

 

 

 a hood, over the nostrils, streamlined 

 

A flat nose would be even more streamlined though. 

 

It is the fact that it protrudes that is the conundrum. I have mentioned previously that the physics puts it beyond doubt that in the lee of any protrusion, turbulence will direct some of the water forward (into the nose) at anything but the very slowest speed. This would not happen with a flat nose.

 

 

You can demonstrate this by simply drawing your hand through the water. Anything floating in the water will shoot forward, following your hand., so when you say " into the water flow or away from the water flow", the water flow is not going in the direction you think it is.

 

It would be nice to ignore physics. I could then easily prove that we can fly. Unfortunately...

 

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska@...>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:08 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] On the Nose

 

People often hold their nose when jumping into water feet first, in order to prevent water entering the nostrils, although this isn’t really necessary because if you are exhaling through the nostrils (or at least not inhaling) as you jump, water won’t enter. However, I can’t imagine jumping into water feet first was an existential issue in itself.

 

Instead of talking about the nose pointing “upward” or “downward” which is a bit confusing here, it would be clearer to talk about whether the nostrils are facing into the water flow or away from the water flow. In the picture of someone diving headfirst into the water I would say the nostrils are facing away from the water, the same as when swimming. Again, water doesn’t enter the nostrils this way unless you inhale through them.

 

In Darwinian terms, the formation of a hood, over the nostrils, streamlined against the direction of travel, would make swimming and diving easier than if the nostrils opened directly onto the face, thereby making foraging underwater more successful and thus survival more likely.

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gareth Morgan
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 2:01 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] On the Nose

 

Regarding the supposition that the shape of the nose somehow prevents water entering the airways, there appear to be two conflicting hypotheses.

 

One says that the nose keeps the water out as long as it is facing downward and lets all the air out when facing upwards, so the lungs fill up with water. Nevertheless people frequently dive headfirst into water with the nose facing upward without any such problems.

 

The second idea is that the nose keeps the water out as long as the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement, yet people often jump feet first into water, with the open nostrils at the leading edge of the nose, again without any problem.

 

    

 

Neither of these suppositions then appears to be consistent with observation or to provide a significant advantage in terms of Darwinian selection. 

 

G.

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Graecopith = savanna animal?

alandarwinvanarsdale
 

While Hominin origins are not evidenced to be of Sub-Saharan, extant African great apes are evidenced by the fossil record to be of Sub-Saharan origins. Some European fossil great apes are more Pan like than anything known from Asia. Lufengpithecus morphologically is the most Hominin like, and orangutan like o any known great ape extant or fossil. And also shares sub-nasal morphology with African great apes. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________The fossil record suggests that Hominids with greater ability to travel during deforested periods, by desert, non arboreal environments or beaches and rivers, repopulated deforested areas where Hominids went extinct in the Upper Miocene, and formed genetic links with surviving pockets of Hominids by introgressions upon contact. Not a linear progression from Lufengpithecus to Hominins or orangutans and certainly Hominins did not evolve in a linear fashion from ancestral African great apes. _________________________________________________________________________________________________Graeacopithecus does not appear closely related to Pan, Graecopithecus appears to have introgresed well after initial divergence with Pan like North of the Sahara great apes. Early terrestrial bipedal Hominids in Africa appear to have been much more Gorilla like (Sahelanthropus especially) than Hominin like. African terrestrial bipedal Hominids became more Hominin like later as seen in australopithecines,which are hybrids of unknown Lufengpithecus close affinity Hominins from the North and East and African terrestrial bipedal great apes. ________________________________________________________________________________________________Short periods of genetic isolation between different gene pools of Hominids especially in the Upper Miocene, led to each gene pool being more distinct than before from the others until they made contact again and gene flow between the groups was reestablished. Orangutans unlike all other great apes in the period of around 4-9 mya maintained genetic isolation from both other great apes and Hominins so were unlike other Asiatic great apes (Meganthropus, Gigantopithecus, Lufengpithecus) were not assimilated genetically by Hominins. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________African great apes (ancestral Pan and Gorilla) were assimilated by Hominins in their terrestrial bipedal morphotypes (to become australopiths) and not in their more arboreal morphotypes though there was enough mixing extant African great apes have the ability to be bipedal at least in many individuals if bipedalism starts before full maturity, both in the wild and in captivity. _________________________________________________________________________________________________The fossil record for early Hominins is so incomplete it is impossible to place their geographic origins except they were Old World and not Sub-Saharan. Probably the origins of the earliest Hominins was very wide spread as a sort of Hominid adaptation to wide-spread deforestation and competition with monkeys in the Upper Miocene. 


On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 3:45 AM fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska=odysseysailing.gr@groups.io> wrote:
Böhme and her team are using the savannah like conditions of southern Greece as an argument that bipedalism arose on European savannah, thereby trying to reinvoke the savannah hypothesis in a new format, but they also write extensively about the clear evidence of water in the region without attributing it at all to hominin adaptations. Based on their papers and her book, I've written:

------

Graecopithecus freybergi, aka “El Greco”, is known from a mandible specimen found in 1944 near Athens, and a single fossil tooth found in Bulgaria in 2012. Graecopithecus lived approximately 7.1 – 7.3 million years ago at the beginning of the Messinian age, or the Tortonian-Messinian boundary.  It has some similarities with Ouranopithecus, enough for some to classify it as a sister or daughter taxon, but there are enough differences to justify giving it its own niche.  The jaw fossil shows that Graecopithecus had relatively small canines with shorter, more convergent roots, which is a characteristic of humans but not of great apes. The roots of chimpanzee canines are more splayed.

It has been suggested that El Greco might represent the last common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans, or even perhaps the first human ancestor after splitting from chimpanzees, and this despite the fact that it lived in Europe instead of Africa. Jochen Fuss from the Seckenberg Centre for Human Evolution and Palaeoenvironment, Tübingen, Germany, Madelaine Böhme of the University of Tübingen, and David Begun, authors of the Graecopithecus study paper, believe that El Greco provides enough evidence to consider that gorillas, chimpanzees and humans may all have diverged in Europe and each migrated to Africa separately. Certainly, the evidence suggests that Graecopithecus was closer to hominins than Ouranopithecus: “We present evidence that Graecopithecus shares derived characters with hominins not found in Ouranopithecus. The most parsimonious interpretation of this distribution of characters is that Ouranopithecus predates the divergence of hominins and Graecopithecus.” 

In her book, Ancient Bones, Madelaine Böhme describes the environment that Graecopithecus likely inhabited. The single tooth from Bulgaria was found in the Upper Thrace Basin, which was filled by fluvial sediments, indicating a heavy water content. El Greco’s fossil jawbone was found at Pyrgos, Vassilis, in the Athens basin, surrounded on three sides by mountains and the coastline of the Saronic gulf to the south. It was lying about 1650 feet west of the paleo Kifissos river, which would have collected all the rainfall from the mountains and carried it out to the sea. In Pyrgos, Böhme’s team observed coarse gravel where the bones were found indicating that the Kifissos River at one time ran through that area before changing course. Signs that a large body of water, perhaps a lake, had once existed there were seen in the stone layers. Stratigraphic analysis of the rock layers shows that water ran throughout the basin for many millions of years. Numerous springs would have bubbled out of the surrounding limestone rock, and braided streams would have meandered across the basin to join the river on its way to the sea. During rainy periods there was so much water that much of the area would have been swampy marshland, with up to 24 inches, 600 litres per m2 falling per year in winter and spring, up to 33% more rainfall than today, while in the summer, the marshes would have dried out and encouraged savannah conditions.

The type environment of the basin is described as “species rich Mediterranean shrub savannah”. Based on analysis of soils and fossilised plant material, during El Greco’s time the landscape would have consisted of open spaces with tall tropical and sub-tropical grasses like those found today in Africa, and grassy meadows with dense pockets of plane tree, oak, and cypress woodland, as well as shrubs: holly, myrtle, tamarisk, ground elder, thistle and other herbaceous plants, all fringed by thick oak forest, palm, and pine trees. The temperature was on average 30 degrees centigrade, or 4 degrees warmer than current averages. Savannah fires during the dry season occasionally ravaged the landscape, as evidenced by tiny particles of fossilised charcoal, while heavy clouds of red Saharan dust blew over the Mediterranean, embedding El Greco’s bones in a thick layer of red mud.

As well as Graecopithecus, many species of fauna, similar to those found in Africa today, found their niche in this well-watered and nutrient rich environment. Large pig-sized hyraxes, gigantic elephant-like dinotherium and various species of suid (pig) would have foraged on the riverbanks or wallowed in the marshes, while short legged chilotherium rhinoceros, short-necked and long-necked giraffes, many species of antelopes, gazelles and 3-toed hipparion horses would have grazed in the meadows and open grasslands or clustered at the streams to drink. Enormous sabre-toothed cats would have selected out the weakest and sickest animals, sending panicked herds in all directions as they hunted, while hyenas and vultures scavenged and cleared up the dead and dying.

Analysis of Graecopithecus’ dentition showed that many of the teeth were worn down, and pushed tightly together, a sign that the individual was accustomed to eating tough, fibrous plant matter. Thick clusters of enormous cattails, up to 4 metres tall, would have grown out of the streams and riverbeds, along with rushes and sedges. Cattails would have formed a significant portion of El Greco’s diet. The stalks, shoots, flowers, leaves, roots and pollen are all edible, tasty and satisfying, although the stalks and leaves would have taken considerable chewing. They would have been available year-round, providing a good source of starches, proteins, sugars and vitamins. In addition, starchy acorns and many wild vegetables, such as sorrel, chickweed, purslane, sedge, ground elder, brassicas, and edible weeds likely formed part of Graecopithecus’ diet, along with insects, water snails, crustaceans or shellfish. According to Böhme, El Greco’s diet would have been closer to modern humans than to modern great apes.

Unfortunately, there are no post-cranial fossils of Graecopithecus so we cannot form much of a picture of how it moved, although its close affinity with Ouranopithecus, as well as the open landscape it lived in, suggests it was in all likelihood predominantly bipedal. Böhme argues that the open savannah-like landscape that Graecopithecus inhabited could be used to support previous savannah hypotheses of how hominins developed bipedalism, only this time, in Europe instead of Africa. With forests mostly gone and few wooded areas to provide refuge, it is likely that El Greco would have lost many of its arboreal features and spent much of its time out in the open, but the same problems that a defenceless hominin might have experienced out on the open savannah in Africa would also apply in Europe. With so many fast-running carnivorous predators, what hope for a bipedal ape? What Böhme and many others fail to consider, is that the water itself likely played a significant role, not only in how Graecopithecus adapted to a form of sustained terrestrial bipedalism, from wading through waist level streams to get to the cattails, but also in how it managed to survive and escape predation when it could no longer seek refuge in the trees. The dense islands of cattails themselves would have provided almost impenetrable barriers to terrestrial hunters.

To sum up, Graecopithecus potentially represents the oldest hominin so far recorded, and possibly the oldest habitual biped with diet and dentition more similar to ours than to chimpanzees. The only problem with it being accepted as a potential human ancestor is that it was not found in Africa. As stated by Böhme, Fuss, et al: “It is clear that if Graecopithecus were found in Africa instead of Europe, its age and morphology would be taken as evidence that it is the earliest known hominin. Chororapithecus is accepted by many as an early gorilla, despite a very fragmentary sample and the fact that much more complete fossils with gorilla-like attributes are known from Europe. But it is from Africa, where the earliest gorillas are supposed to be. The real problem is not morphology or preservation but a location that does not conform to the expectations of generations of palaeoanthropologists.”

--------------------------

Francesca


-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Marc Verhaegen
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 6:33 PM
To: aat@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] Graecopith = savanna animal?

Messinian age and savannah environment of the possible hominin Graecopithecus from Europe Madelaine Böhme  cs 2017  doi org/10.1371/journal.pone.0177347

Dating  fossil hominids & reconstructing their environments is critically  important for understanding human evolution.
Here we date the  potentially oldest hominin, Graecop.freybergi from Europe, we constrain the environmental conditions under which it thrived.
For the Graecopithecus-bearing  Pikermi Fm of Attica/Greece, a saline aeolian dust deposit of  N.African (Sahara) provenance, we obtain an age of 7.37–7.11 Ma (co-eval with a dramatic cooling in the Med.region at the Tortonian-Messinian transition).
Palaeo-botanic proxies demonstrate  C4-grass-dominated wooded grassland-to-woodland habitats of a savannah  biome for the Pikermi Fm.
Faunal turnover at the  Tortonian-Messinian transition led to the spread of new mammalian taxa  along with Graecopithecus into Europe.
The type mandible of G.freybergi  from Pyrgos (7.175 Ma) & the single tooth (7.24 Ma) from Azmaka  (Bulgaria) represent the first hominids of Messinian age from  continental Europe.
Our results suggest that major splits in the hominid  family occurred outside Africa.










Re: On the Nose

fceska_gr
 

Adult proboscis monkey

 

As for the rest, I can’t really follow your logic. It seems pretty obvious to me that the hood of the nose somehow protects the nostrils when swimming. All I can say, is next time you go for a swim, face down in the water, without a mask, see if water enters your nostrils, moving forward or not. Obviously you can’t compare that to not having a hooded nose unless you remove the appendage first – not recommended! 😊

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gareth Morgan
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 4:22 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] On the Nose

 

 it would be clearer to talk about whether the nostrils are facing into the water flow or away from the water flow.

 

That's what I meant by "the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement".

 

 

 

would make swimming and diving easier than if the nostrils opened directly onto the face

 

Yet the proboscis monkey manages perfectly well with forward-facing nostrils.

 

 

 

 a hood, over the nostrils, streamlined 

 

A flat nose would be even more streamlined though. 

 

It is the fact that it protrudes that is the conundrum. I have mentioned previously that the physics puts it beyond doubt that in the lee of any protrusion, turbulence will direct some of the water forward (into the nose) at anything but the very slowest speed. This would not happen with a flat nose.

 

 

You can demonstrate this by simply drawing your hand through the water. Anything floating in the water will shoot forward, following your hand., so when you say " into the water flow or away from the water flow", the water flow is not going in the direction you think it is.

 

It would be nice to ignore physics. I could then easily prove that we can fly. Unfortunately...

 

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska@...>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:08 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] On the Nose

 

People often hold their nose when jumping into water feet first, in order to prevent water entering the nostrils, although this isn’t really necessary because if you are exhaling through the nostrils (or at least not inhaling) as you jump, water won’t enter. However, I can’t imagine jumping into water feet first was an existential issue in itself.

 

Instead of talking about the nose pointing “upward” or “downward” which is a bit confusing here, it would be clearer to talk about whether the nostrils are facing into the water flow or away from the water flow. In the picture of someone diving headfirst into the water I would say the nostrils are facing away from the water, the same as when swimming. Again, water doesn’t enter the nostrils this way unless you inhale through them.

 

In Darwinian terms, the formation of a hood, over the nostrils, streamlined against the direction of travel, would make swimming and diving easier than if the nostrils opened directly onto the face, thereby making foraging underwater more successful and thus survival more likely.

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gareth Morgan
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 2:01 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] On the Nose

 

Regarding the supposition that the shape of the nose somehow prevents water entering the airways, there appear to be two conflicting hypotheses.

 

One says that the nose keeps the water out as long as it is facing downward and lets all the air out when facing upwards, so the lungs fill up with water. Nevertheless people frequently dive headfirst into water with the nose facing upward without any such problems.

 

The second idea is that the nose keeps the water out as long as the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement, yet people often jump feet first into water, with the open nostrils at the leading edge of the nose, again without any problem.

 

    

 

Neither of these suppositions then appears to be consistent with observation or to provide a significant advantage in terms of Darwinian selection. 

 

G.

 

 

 

 

 


Re: On the Nose

Gareth Morgan
 

 it would be clearer to talk about whether the nostrils are facing into the water flow or away from the water flow.

That's what I meant by "the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement".



would make swimming and diving easier than if the nostrils opened directly onto the face

Yet the proboscis monkey manages perfectly well with forward-facing nostrils.




 a hood, over the nostrils, streamlined 

A flat nose would be even more streamlined though. 

It is the fact that it protrudes that is the conundrum. I have mentioned previously that the physics puts it beyond doubt that in the lee of any protrusion, turbulence will direct some of the water forward (into the nose) at anything but the very slowest speed. This would not happen with a flat nose.



You can demonstrate this by simply drawing your hand through the water. Anything floating in the water will shoot forward, following your hand., so when you say " into the water flow or away from the water flow", the water flow is not going in the direction you think it is.

It would be nice to ignore physics. I could then easily prove that we can fly. Unfortunately...

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska@...>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:08 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] On the Nose
 

People often hold their nose when jumping into water feet first, in order to prevent water entering the nostrils, although this isn’t really necessary because if you are exhaling through the nostrils (or at least not inhaling) as you jump, water won’t enter. However, I can’t imagine jumping into water feet first was an existential issue in itself.

 

Instead of talking about the nose pointing “upward” or “downward” which is a bit confusing here, it would be clearer to talk about whether the nostrils are facing into the water flow or away from the water flow. In the picture of someone diving headfirst into the water I would say the nostrils are facing away from the water, the same as when swimming. Again, water doesn’t enter the nostrils this way unless you inhale through them.

 

In Darwinian terms, the formation of a hood, over the nostrils, streamlined against the direction of travel, would make swimming and diving easier than if the nostrils opened directly onto the face, thereby making foraging underwater more successful and thus survival more likely.

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gareth Morgan
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 2:01 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] On the Nose

 

Regarding the supposition that the shape of the nose somehow prevents water entering the airways, there appear to be two conflicting hypotheses.

 

One says that the nose keeps the water out as long as it is facing downward and lets all the air out when facing upwards, so the lungs fill up with water. Nevertheless people frequently dive headfirst into water with the nose facing upward without any such problems.

 

The second idea is that the nose keeps the water out as long as the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement, yet people often jump feet first into water, with the open nostrils at the leading edge of the nose, again without any problem.

 

    

 

Neither of these suppositions then appears to be consistent with observation or to provide a significant advantage in terms of Darwinian selection. 

 

G.

 

 

 

 

 


Re: On the Nose

fceska_gr
 

People often hold their nose when jumping into water feet first, in order to prevent water entering the nostrils, although this isn’t really necessary because if you are exhaling through the nostrils (or at least not inhaling) as you jump, water won’t enter. However, I can’t imagine jumping into water feet first was an existential issue in itself.

 

Instead of talking about the nose pointing “upward” or “downward” which is a bit confusing here, it would be clearer to talk about whether the nostrils are facing into the water flow or away from the water flow. In the picture of someone diving headfirst into the water I would say the nostrils are facing away from the water, the same as when swimming. Again, water doesn’t enter the nostrils this way unless you inhale through them.

 

In Darwinian terms, the formation of a hood, over the nostrils, streamlined against the direction of travel, would make swimming and diving easier than if the nostrils opened directly onto the face, thereby making foraging underwater more successful and thus survival more likely.

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gareth Morgan
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 2:01 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] On the Nose

 

Regarding the supposition that the shape of the nose somehow prevents water entering the airways, there appear to be two conflicting hypotheses.

 

One says that the nose keeps the water out as long as it is facing downward and lets all the air out when facing upwards, so the lungs fill up with water. Nevertheless people frequently dive headfirst into water with the nose facing upward without any such problems.

 

The second idea is that the nose keeps the water out as long as the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement, yet people often jump feet first into water, with the open nostrils at the leading edge of the nose, again without any problem.

 

    

 

Neither of these suppositions then appears to be consistent with observation or to provide a significant advantage in terms of Darwinian selection. 

 

G.

 

 

 

 

 


Re: On the Nose

Marc Verhaegen
 

Regarding the supposition that the shape of the nose somehow prevents water entering the airways, there appear to be 2 conflicting hypotheses:
1) the nose keeps the water out as long as it is facing downward and lets all the air out when facing upwards, so the lungs fill up with water. Nevertheless people frequently dive headfirst into water with the nose facing upward without any such problems.
2) the nose keeps the water out as long as the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement, yet people often jump feet first into water, with the open nostrils at the leading edge of the nose, again without any problem.
Neither of these suppositions then appears to be consistent with observation or to provide a significant advantage in terms of Darwinian selection.
G.


Do most?many mammals that are becoming more aquatic initially develop snorkels? elephantids, suids, Homo (& disappeared in other hominoids??), Nasalis...
When India approached Eurasia (c 30 Ma?), an island arch was formed + mangroves etc. = OWM/ape split, apes in Indian island arch initially?
Nasalis = island & mangrove dweller, often wading, sometimes surface-swimming, more upright & +-larger than most OWMs, shorter tail, proboscis...
Female Nasalis have small upturned noses!?


On the Nose

Gareth Morgan
 

Regarding the supposition that the shape of the nose somehow prevents water entering the airways, there appear to be two conflicting hypotheses.

One says that the nose keeps the water out as long as it is facing downward and lets all the air out when facing upwards, so the lungs fill up with water. Nevertheless people frequently dive headfirst into water with the nose facing upward without any such problems.

The second idea is that the nose keeps the water out as long as the nostrils are facing away from the direction of movement, yet people often jump feet first into water, with the open nostrils at the leading edge of the nose, again without any problem.

    

Neither of these suppositions then appears to be consistent with observation or to provide a significant advantage in terms of Darwinian selection. 

G.






Re: Graecopith = savanna animal?

fceska_gr
 

Böhme and her team are using the savannah like conditions of southern Greece as an argument that bipedalism arose on European savannah, thereby trying to reinvoke the savannah hypothesis in a new format, but they also write extensively about the clear evidence of water in the region without attributing it at all to hominin adaptations. Based on their papers and her book, I've written:

------

Graecopithecus freybergi, aka “El Greco”, is known from a mandible specimen found in 1944 near Athens, and a single fossil tooth found in Bulgaria in 2012. Graecopithecus lived approximately 7.1 – 7.3 million years ago at the beginning of the Messinian age, or the Tortonian-Messinian boundary. It has some similarities with Ouranopithecus, enough for some to classify it as a sister or daughter taxon, but there are enough differences to justify giving it its own niche. The jaw fossil shows that Graecopithecus had relatively small canines with shorter, more convergent roots, which is a characteristic of humans but not of great apes. The roots of chimpanzee canines are more splayed.

It has been suggested that El Greco might represent the last common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans, or even perhaps the first human ancestor after splitting from chimpanzees, and this despite the fact that it lived in Europe instead of Africa. Jochen Fuss from the Seckenberg Centre for Human Evolution and Palaeoenvironment, Tübingen, Germany, Madelaine Böhme of the University of Tübingen, and David Begun, authors of the Graecopithecus study paper, believe that El Greco provides enough evidence to consider that gorillas, chimpanzees and humans may all have diverged in Europe and each migrated to Africa separately. Certainly, the evidence suggests that Graecopithecus was closer to hominins than Ouranopithecus: “We present evidence that Graecopithecus shares derived characters with hominins not found in Ouranopithecus. The most parsimonious interpretation of this distribution of characters is that Ouranopithecus predates the divergence of hominins and Graecopithecus.”

In her book, Ancient Bones, Madelaine Böhme describes the environment that Graecopithecus likely inhabited. The single tooth from Bulgaria was found in the Upper Thrace Basin, which was filled by fluvial sediments, indicating a heavy water content. El Greco’s fossil jawbone was found at Pyrgos, Vassilis, in the Athens basin, surrounded on three sides by mountains and the coastline of the Saronic gulf to the south. It was lying about 1650 feet west of the paleo Kifissos river, which would have collected all the rainfall from the mountains and carried it out to the sea. In Pyrgos, Böhme’s team observed coarse gravel where the bones were found indicating that the Kifissos River at one time ran through that area before changing course. Signs that a large body of water, perhaps a lake, had once existed there were seen in the stone layers. Stratigraphic analysis of the rock layers shows that water ran throughout the basin for many millions of years. Numerous springs would have bubbled out of the surrounding limestone rock, and braided streams would have meandered across the basin to join the river on its way to the sea. During rainy periods there was so much water that much of the area would have been swampy marshland, with up to 24 inches, 600 litres per m2 falling per year in winter and spring, up to 33% more rainfall than today, while in the summer, the marshes would have dried out and encouraged savannah conditions.

The type environment of the basin is described as “species rich Mediterranean shrub savannah”. Based on analysis of soils and fossilised plant material, during El Greco’s time the landscape would have consisted of open spaces with tall tropical and sub-tropical grasses like those found today in Africa, and grassy meadows with dense pockets of plane tree, oak, and cypress woodland, as well as shrubs: holly, myrtle, tamarisk, ground elder, thistle and other herbaceous plants, all fringed by thick oak forest, palm, and pine trees. The temperature was on average 30 degrees centigrade, or 4 degrees warmer than current averages. Savannah fires during the dry season occasionally ravaged the landscape, as evidenced by tiny particles of fossilised charcoal, while heavy clouds of red Saharan dust blew over the Mediterranean, embedding El Greco’s bones in a thick layer of red mud.

As well as Graecopithecus, many species of fauna, similar to those found in Africa today, found their niche in this well-watered and nutrient rich environment. Large pig-sized hyraxes, gigantic elephant-like dinotherium and various species of suid (pig) would have foraged on the riverbanks or wallowed in the marshes, while short legged chilotherium rhinoceros, short-necked and long-necked giraffes, many species of antelopes, gazelles and 3-toed hipparion horses would have grazed in the meadows and open grasslands or clustered at the streams to drink. Enormous sabre-toothed cats would have selected out the weakest and sickest animals, sending panicked herds in all directions as they hunted, while hyenas and vultures scavenged and cleared up the dead and dying.

Analysis of Graecopithecus’ dentition showed that many of the teeth were worn down, and pushed tightly together, a sign that the individual was accustomed to eating tough, fibrous plant matter. Thick clusters of enormous cattails, up to 4 metres tall, would have grown out of the streams and riverbeds, along with rushes and sedges. Cattails would have formed a significant portion of El Greco’s diet. The stalks, shoots, flowers, leaves, roots and pollen are all edible, tasty and satisfying, although the stalks and leaves would have taken considerable chewing. They would have been available year-round, providing a good source of starches, proteins, sugars and vitamins. In addition, starchy acorns and many wild vegetables, such as sorrel, chickweed, purslane, sedge, ground elder, brassicas, and edible weeds likely formed part of Graecopithecus’ diet, along with insects, water snails, crustaceans or shellfish. According to Böhme, El Greco’s diet would have been closer to modern humans than to modern great apes.

Unfortunately, there are no post-cranial fossils of Graecopithecus so we cannot form much of a picture of how it moved, although its close affinity with Ouranopithecus, as well as the open landscape it lived in, suggests it was in all likelihood predominantly bipedal. Böhme argues that the open savannah-like landscape that Graecopithecus inhabited could be used to support previous savannah hypotheses of how hominins developed bipedalism, only this time, in Europe instead of Africa. With forests mostly gone and few wooded areas to provide refuge, it is likely that El Greco would have lost many of its arboreal features and spent much of its time out in the open, but the same problems that a defenceless hominin might have experienced out on the open savannah in Africa would also apply in Europe. With so many fast-running carnivorous predators, what hope for a bipedal ape? What Böhme and many others fail to consider, is that the water itself likely played a significant role, not only in how Graecopithecus adapted to a form of sustained terrestrial bipedalism, from wading through waist level streams to get to the cattails, but also in how it managed to survive and escape predation when it could no longer seek refuge in the trees. The dense islands of cattails themselves would have provided almost impenetrable barriers to terrestrial hunters.

To sum up, Graecopithecus potentially represents the oldest hominin so far recorded, and possibly the oldest habitual biped with diet and dentition more similar to ours than to chimpanzees. The only problem with it being accepted as a potential human ancestor is that it was not found in Africa. As stated by Böhme, Fuss, et al: “It is clear that if Graecopithecus were found in Africa instead of Europe, its age and morphology would be taken as evidence that it is the earliest known hominin. Chororapithecus is accepted by many as an early gorilla, despite a very fragmentary sample and the fact that much more complete fossils with gorilla-like attributes are known from Europe. But it is from Africa, where the earliest gorillas are supposed to be. The real problem is not morphology or preservation but a location that does not conform to the expectations of generations of palaeoanthropologists.”

--------------------------

Francesca

-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Marc Verhaegen
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 6:33 PM
To: aat@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] Graecopith = savanna animal?

Messinian age and savannah environment of the possible hominin Graecopithecus from Europe Madelaine Böhme cs 2017 doi org/10.1371/journal.pone.0177347

Dating fossil hominids & reconstructing their environments is critically important for understanding human evolution.
Here we date the potentially oldest hominin, Graecop.freybergi from Europe, we constrain the environmental conditions under which it thrived.
For the Graecopithecus-bearing Pikermi Fm of Attica/Greece, a saline aeolian dust deposit of N.African (Sahara) provenance, we obtain an age of 7.37–7.11 Ma (co-eval with a dramatic cooling in the Med.region at the Tortonian-Messinian transition).
Palaeo-botanic proxies demonstrate C4-grass-dominated wooded grassland-to-woodland habitats of a savannah biome for the Pikermi Fm.
Faunal turnover at the Tortonian-Messinian transition led to the spread of new mammalian taxa along with Graecopithecus into Europe.
The type mandible of G.freybergi from Pyrgos (7.175 Ma) & the single tooth (7.24 Ma) from Azmaka (Bulgaria) represent the first hominids of Messinian age from continental Europe.
Our results suggest that major splits in the hominid family occurred outside Africa.


Re: Pelagian Heresy

Gareth Morgan
 

Interesting to note that it is at around 30 metres depth (where O2 partial pressure is the same as on land)  that divers are sometimes known to burst into laughter and happily remove the regulator from their mouths, behaviour attributed to nitrogen narcosis -- "rapture of the deeps".  Any first-hand accounts of this phenomenon would be welcome.


take in a fresh breath of air every minute or so

CAUTION. 
Hypercapnia is a hazard of underwater diving associated with breath-hold diving, scuba diving, particularly on rebreathers, and deep diving. Specific symptoms attributable to early hypercapnia are dyspnea (breathlessness), headache, confusion and lethargy. Clinical signs include flushed skin, full pulse (bounding pulse), rapid breathing, premature heart beats, muscle twitches, and hand flaps (asterixis). The risk of dangerous irregularities of the heart beat is increased. In severe hypercapnia symptomatology progresses to disorientation, panic, hyperventilation, convulsions, unconsciousness, and eventually death.

All these hazards would be avoided by breathing water.

In fact I would strongly advise against breathing air under any circumstances. 50,000 people die in the UK every year as a result of this dangerous practice.


G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2022 7:21 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Pelagian Heresy
 

Interesting, Gareth, but I hope you’re not going to attempt to do it yourself! 😊

 

When I’m swimming, with a mask (but no snorkel), face down in the water, I’ve found that I can spend up to 90% of my time that way, if I’m not being too energetic. I just have to roll over or lift my face to take in a fresh breath of air every minute or so, and gradually exhale the carbon dioxide while I’m submerged. If I see a sea-urchin, or nice shell, for example, I can dive down, I suppose about 3-4 metres, without too much effort (more with fins). But I’m not particularly fit, don’t swim that often, and have a much smaller lung & nasal capacity than H.e or N.n. The Moken, of course, do this kind of thing all the time and can stay underwater much longer.

 

I can see how shallow water foraging this way would be quite easy for a hominin that had a much larger lung capacity and was accustomed to doing this on a daily basis. Another thing about Neanderthals that scientists are still unable to explain, is why so many of them, including juveniles, had significant tooth damage, in some cases down to the dentine, mainly on their anterior upper and lower teeth. If you want to dive down and gather shellfish from the rocks below, you might need a tool. It’s difficult to dive if you’re holding something in your hand, so holding it in your teeth might be the way to do it. Upon rising to the surface with your lunch, you could use the same tool to open it and eat it, either treading water or back floating.

 

I’m not sure that our early Homo ancestors ever really needed to breathe liquid seawater into their lungs, and the fact that dogs can do it under controlled conditions means this is probably theoretically possible in all mammals and not significantly related to human evolution. But there are other signs that H. erectus may have possibly spent more time at sea, such as the fact that they ended up in Luzon and Flores and Crete and Socotra and other places not connected by land bridges, although we can’t rule out raft-building or crossing with elephants. And we have slow-wave hemispheric sleep wave patterns, like dolphins, allowing us to rest one half of a brain at a time in certain conditions, so it’s possible that there may have been a time when our ancestors were forced to spend the night in the water to survive.  

 

F.

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gareth Morgan
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 4:27 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: [AAT] Pelagian Heresy

 

 

On breathing seawater 

Abstract 

At sea level, air contains more than 200ml of oxygen per litre: sea water only about 5ml/ 5 .6 ml/ 6.2 ml/ 8.68 ml/ 9.03 ml or 10.92 ml per litre (various authorities), so the likelihood of being able to breathe sea water would seem remote at first sight -- by a factor of up to forty. 

It has become commonplace in recent years, however, to resuscitate people who have been submerged (drowned) in cold water for two hours or more, so we can say with absolute certainty that there is enough oxygen in one lungful of cold water to sustain human life, albeit unconscious, for at least two hours.  The present investigation considers various aspects of the issue.  

 

How much oxygen do we actually use? 

Air contains 21% oxygen by volume, but exhaled air still contains around 16% oxygen, so, at rest, we clearly absorb no more than 50ml of oxygen per litre of air inhaled.  

Furthermore,our lungs are not completely emptied between breaths. The nose, pharynx, larynx, trachea, bronchi, and bronchioles always contain around 150ml of the exhaled air. This is called 'dead space', and since the tidal volume of breath taken by a resting adult is only around 300ml, then the air in the lungs after inhalation will be a mixture of inhaled air (21% O2) and dead space air (16% O2), averaging 18.5% oxygen, so in fact we extract only 25 ml of oxygen from each litre of the air we inhale. 

Sea water though doesn't have 25ml of dissolved oxygen per litre, only around 5ml -- still seemingly insufficient by a factor of five. 

 

How much oxygen could be available? 

We are not limited to breaths of 300ml, however.  We can, at will, easily take in breaths of three litres or more, increasing the oxygen supply tenfold. We can also increase our breathing rate from 12 breaths a minute to 24 or more, doubling it again. 

Our actual average oxygen consumption in air is said to be around 200 to 250ml per minute. By taking 24 three-litre breaths of sea water per minute our lungs would have access to over 360ml of oxygen per minute if they could absorb it, though it would be hard work. 

 

How much oxygen do we actually need? 

Both the minimum necessary amount of oxygen for human respiration, and the amount that is toxic, "are set by the partial pressure of oxygen alone." 

Oxygen partial pressure is usually measured in kilopascals (kPa) and the generally accepted safe range between hypoxia and oxygen toxicity is given as 16kPa to 100kPa. "A patient below 8kPa would normally be considered critically low." 

There is very little oxygen at altitude. A team of mountaineers climbing at 7100 metres on Mount Everest had the oxygen partial pressure in their blood measured and the results were very interesting. Their arterial blood partial pressure averaged just 3.28kPa, with the lowest reading coming in at 2.55kPa -- less than a third of the "critical' 8kPa. 

At 8400 m, the mean arterial oxygen content was 26% lower still -- the climbers still going strong while carrying up to 40kg of equipment on a steep incline while breathing ambient air. 

And then there was Lincoln Ross Hall. He had been left for dead near the summit of Everest and was found by climbers the following day.  "Sitting to our left, about two feet from a 10,000 foot drop, was a man. Not dead, not sleeping, but sitting cross legged, in the process of changing his shirt. He had his down suit unzipped to the waist, his arms out of the sleeves, was wearing no hat, no gloves, no sunglasses, had no oxygen mask, regulator, ice axe, oxygen, no sleeping bag, no mattress, no food nor water bottle. 'I imagine you're surprised to see me here', he said. Now, this was a moment of total disbelief to us all. Here was a gentleman, apparently lucid, who had spent the night without oxygen at 8600m, without proper equipment and barely clothed. And ALIVE." He lived for several more years to tell the tale before dying of something else altogether. 

Oxygen saturation is also sometimes measured as a percentage. Normally, arterial blood is between 93% and 100% saturated with oxygen -- averaging around 95% at rest -- and it is widely taught that: "Sustained hypoxia (oxygenation less than 90%), is dangerous to health, and severe hypoxia (saturations less than 30%) may be rapidly fatal." 

Doctors chatting on medical forums online report a somewhat different scenario. e.g.," Working with congenital heart patients I don't get worried until my sats hit 30[%] or so in any of my single ventricle (and sometimes not single ventricle) patients." 

“Ultimately I ended up seeing her O2 sat[uration] drop as low as 3% while rotating prone. There were 3 stars of accuracy the whole time; a great waveform, pulse correlated exactly with the HR [heart rate] and her extremities were warm and pink." 

" I've seen 0% on 2 different p[atien]ts both with a waveform and matching HR." 

It seems that we may not need quite as much oxygen as we have been led to believe. 

 

How is oxygen absorbed? 

There are a number of problems with breathing air. The first is the air/water interface. Air has to dissolve in the water lining the lungs before it can pass into the bloodstream, and there is a limit to how fast this can happen. Breathing water would bypass this problem of course, because the oxygen is already dissolved. 

Another problem is surfactants. 

The alveoli are lubricated with five different surfactants manufactured by specialised cells in the lungs. Without surfactants the surface tension of the moisture in the alveoli would cause them to collapse on exhalation. Surfactants also stop the walls sticking to each other after each outbreath, but they do create a major barrier to gas transfer. 

"Oxygen permeability is inhibited already at very low surfactant concentration (0,1-1 mmol/l)" and when we exhale fully the alveoli contract and the surfactants are concentrated to a point where there is virtually no air or water left in the alveoli, so no oxygen at all passes into the bloodstream. In the case of water breathing there is no 'surface' for the surfactants to coat. They will remain suspended in the water as a form of emulsion that the water can easily permeate. 

Once in contact with the walls of the alveoli the dissolved oxygen can pass quite freely through the membrane and into the blood vessels that lie flat on their external surfaces and will do so, provided the oxygen partial pressure in the blood serum is lower than that in the water that lines the alveoli.  

 

Where does the oxygen go? 

Single celled organisms up to 1mm in diameter, or forming a film 1mm thick, can absorb sufficient oxygen directly from water to survive happily. One kg of living cells would form a film, 1mm thick, covering one square metre, so it is no surprise that a person weighing 75 kilos has lungs with a surface area of 75 square metres. All that's needed is a system to circulate the oxygen around the rest of the body. 

After passing through the alveolar membrane the dissolved oxygen finds itself in the blood serum, which is basically water containing 1% dissolved salt.  

When oxygen dissolves into the surface of still water the process quickly stops, because the rate of 'passive diffusion' in still water is very slow. The top 1mm of the water quickly becomes completely saturated and no more can dissolve until the oxygen in the water slowly dissipates. 

In the pulmonary blood vessels though, the oxygen content of the serum never rises above 3 ml per litre for two reasons. 

Firstly, the oxygen enriched blood serum is immediately moved away from the alveoli by the flow of blood, driven by the heart. This allows more oxygen to flow into the serum at the fastest possible rate. 

Secondly, the haemoglobin, which comprises 95% of each red blood cell has an enormous affinity for oxygen and effectively mops up anything over 3ml/L., so although arterial blood, when fully saturated, holds 200ml of oxygen per litre, nearly all of it is bound to the haemoglobin. 

 

How quickly could dissolved oxygen be absorbed? 

Since the water in the north of the Ionian sea, for example, has an oxygen content of 6ml/L in July and blood serum has only 3ml, we know that oxygen will perfuse the entire cardiovascular system (provided the airways remain open and the heart is beating), whether a person is breathing or not, but not what the rate of diffusion would be. 

There is no theoretical model capable of predicting the “mass transfer coefficient” -- the rate at which oxygen in sea water could permeate the blood via the lungs. Approximations, requiring calculations involving up to eight 'dimensionless numbers', some prone to variations of 10,000x, would have only a 30% accuracy at best and would not be valid if surfactants are present. 

However, we do know that "gases dissolve, diffuse, and react according to their partial pressures, and not according to their concentrations in gas mixtures or liquids." and that the partial pressure of oxygen in air at sea level is 13.3kPa/14.2kPa/19.6kPa/21.2kPa or 21.3315824kPa (various authorities). 

We also know that “the lung pressure that a typical person can exert at sea level is 1.5bar.  At 3m depth it is more than 2bar. 

Partial pressure = (total absolute pressure) × (volume fraction of gas component), so if the dissolved oxygen is at a concentration of 6ml/L then, at 3m depth (2 x 0.06 = 0.12bar) a person can generate an oxygen partial pressure of 12kPa, comparable to the normal range for air breathing, but it would still be hard work. (At 20 metres depth a healthy male can easily 'blow' at over 6bar absolute.) 

 

Will inhaled water fully permeate the lungs? 

If air locks were to form in the bronchioles, then breathing water would be both painful and ineffective. Fortunately, water does fill the lung completely. The fairly new medical technique of lung lavage takes advantage of this to flood the lungs (one at a time) with saline solution in order to flush out the debris in obstructive lung disease patients. 

No airlocks can form because the 150ml of dead space air in the lungs is shared around the entire 75 square metre surface of the lungs. This is the equivalent of painting a tennis court with a small wineglassful of paint, providing 500 square mm of surface area for every cubic mm of air, which would form a layer just 2 microns in thickness.  With the added pressure of the water, this small amount of air would be absorbed into the blood stream almost immediately. 

Also, people have checked: - 

"Winternitz and Smith have shown that the lung is much less susceptible to [damage caused by] the introduction of fluid than has been generally supposed. Repeated experiments have demonstrated that the lungs can be entirely flooded through the bronchi with isotonic salt solution and that this process of irrigation can continue for at least 2 hours with the introduction of 6 liters of fluid without causing any evident harmful changes in bodily well-being or any subsequent serious microscopic lesions in the lung tissue. By means of the use of colored solutions it has been shown that the fluid introduced actually passes throughout the lung, bronchi, bronchioles, and alveoli and does not simply flow back through the trachea without entering the lung." 

 

How would the heart react to less oxygen? 

There is a training method used by athletes called the exhale-hold technique where athletes deliberately restrict their oxygen intake. "Studies showed an increase in all heart activity when hypoventilation is carried out in terrestrial sports. Cardiac output, heart rate, stroke volume and sympathetic modulation to the heart are greater when exercise with hypoventilation is performed in running or cycling. In swimming on the other hand, no significant change in the heart activity has been found." 

 

What about the carbon dioxide? 

Air contains 0.04% carbon dioxide, while exhaled air contains 4%. This creates a very steep partial pressure gradient so the gas flows readily out of the body. Sea water has almost the same amount of CO2 as air (0.0325%). 

In any case we can tolerate an atmosphere which has a 100-fold increase in carbon dioxide (4%) for a week with only “moderate respiratory stimulation (and) exaggerated respiratory response to exercise." (Slight feeling of breathlessness)* 

*Lambertsen, Christian J. (1971). "Carbon Dioxide Tolerance and Toxicity". Environmental Biomedical Stress Data Center, Institute for Environmental Medicine, University of Pennsylvania Medical Center. Philadelphia, PA. IFEM Report No. 2–71. Retrieved 2008-06-10.  

If too much carbon dioxide is expelled , " Even when marked, hypocapnia is normally well tolerated, with few apparent effects," ** primarily the useful warning signs of dizziness and 'pins and needles'. 

** http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMra012457 

 

What other variable factors are there? 

At 6ml/L the Ionian Sea is already at 120% oxygen saturation at 25 degrees C.  On a rocky shore with pebble beaches, with luxuriant growth of seaweeds, algae and sea grass and onshore winds in early summer, oxygen concentration can reach 200% saturation. 

Water temperature can vary from minute to minute in the sea, but with surface temperatures of 25 deg. C. hypothermia is not considered a hazard by bathers or divers. Compared to the hazardous temperatures survived by Ross Hall in the Himalayas (above) or Lynne Cox, who spent over two hours swimming the Bering Strait, the risk of frostbite in the Mediterranean is minimal. 

The body's oxygen demands when submerged are substantially reduced due to the "diving reflex," and energy consumption (oxygen metabolism) in a zero-gravityenvironment is in any case much less than under normal gravity. 

Some younger people suffer pain from pressure on the sinuses when diving, but the sinuses grow with age so that air (and water) can flow in and out more easily. (Babies have no sinuses at all.) The sinuses have recently been found to produce nitric oxide, which acts as an effective pulmonary vasodilator when inhaled.  

Smokers have significantly more haemoglobin than non-smokers. Women smokers in particular benefit from this by being 30% less likely to suffer from anaemia.  By quitting smoking two days before diving, the carbon monoxide attached to the haemoglobin would leave the body, allowing more oxygen to be taken up. 

Many powerful drugs cease to have any effect at all when we are immersed in water. On the other hand, the "inert” gas, nitrogen, becomes a powerful narcotic, and there is quite a lot more nitrogen in the sea than oxygen, so a degree of “rapture" may be experienced. 

Since we have only a limited ability to detect oxygen deficit or surplus either in the environment or in our bloodstream, there could be a danger of absorbing too much oxygen, causing oxygen toxicity. ("Over 100kPa and you may start coughing uncontrollably, go into convulsions, lose consciousness and die -- from lack of oxygen, ironically, because your lungs will fail.") Familiarity with the attendant symptoms and sensations would give advance warning of oxygen toxicity from over breathing, but this is a far greater risk when breathing air than when breathing water. 

Maybe the greatest barrier to breathing water is the gag reflex, which causes the epiglottis to seal the top of the windpipe when water hits the back of the throat. More than a third of people (37%) don't have this reflex though and in smokers the sensitivity is reduced – i.e. “the threshold volumes for both the pharyngo-upper esophageal sphincter contractile reflex and reflexive pharyngeal swallowing is increased." In any case the reflex can be easily overcome by spraying the back of the throat with 5% novocaine or lidocaine solution anaesthetic throat spray, available at the local pharmacy. 

 

Why do people drown? 

Statistically over 90% of all drownings are what used to be called "dry drowning." That is, the gag reflex has closed the windpipe and not a drop of water has entered the lungs, so the victim dies of asphyxiation. Most of the others take place in ditches/canals (stagnant water), baths (hot water), swimming pools (chlorinated water) or other liquids that contain little or no oxygen.  (90% of all drownings also happen in fresh water.) 

The nocebo auto-suggestion effect is also very powerful.  

A rat was placed in a steep sided tank of water and swam around for x minutes before giving up, ceasing to swim and dying (drowning). A second rat was allowed to swim for x minus 1 minutes before a platform was raised in the water and the rat was saved. On his next immersion the rat swam for 2x minutes before the platform was raised. Eventually the rat, confident in the knowledge that the platform would eventually appear, would keep swimming "indefinitely". If we "know" that we cannot continue to live, we can die, and most people 'know' that you can't live underwater. 

There are many anecdotal accounts of people inhaling lungfuls of water (both fresh and salt), describing the sensation as "cold" and 'miraculously' surviving or being rescued just before giving up the ghost.  

Interviews with people who have “drowned” indicate some common features. 

One Irishman was, as a boy, forbidden to play near the weir on the River Shannon where he grew up, so he did. It was summer and the whole river was flowing through a narrow gap in the weir. He tried to jump the gap, failed and was swept over and down to the bottom of the river, facing upwards. He felt the water enter his lungs. He said it felt cold. He stood up and walked across the bed of the river underwater and up the bank where he coughed and spluttered for five minutes and went home, terrified of what his mother would say about his wet clothes but otherwise unharmed. 

Another novice swimmer thought he wasn’t going to make it across the swimming pool so turned over on his back, facing upwards, to save energy, slipped under and kept swimming till he knocked himself out on the side of the pool. 

A prominent swimming coach maintains that any time a swimmer turns to face upwards while underwater, all the air will rush out of the lungs and water will rush in, they will lose buoyancy and sink to the bottom.  Having experienced this “hundreds of times,” his description indicates that being ‘face up’ underwater will disable the gag reflex (above) and cause the soft palate closure to open wide along with the epiglottis – each of which normally forms an airtight seal during a gag reflex.  One Welshman also says he used to breathe water to startle his friends.  Sadly, neither of these individuals is prepared to discuss these statements. 

 

Are there any creatures with lungs that breathe water?  

There is a normally air-breathing fresh water turtle in Australia that has a clever method of avoiding being swept downstream when heavy rains cause flash floods.  

It dives to the bottom of the river, facing downstream, and opens its rectum. It can absorb enough oxygen through the lining of its colon to survive quite happily till the flood subsides. 

No one has ever seen a leatherback turtle on the surface of the sea from the day they hatch to the time they are seen again as adults, having grown to the size of a dining table and weighing up to a ton.  

The turtles in the Gulf of California are now known to spend all the winter months hibernating on the sea floor without coming up for air. Their carapaces are impermeable and they have no gills so how can they possibly obtain oxygen, if not via the lungs? 

The Chinese soft-shelled turtle uses another strategy. Its mouth is lined with thousands of small protrusions, which increase the surface area enough to enable it to ‘breathe’ underwater. The hairy frog has similar tendrils of skin around its hindquarters that perform the same function.

These are cold-blooded creatures though and warm-blooded animals require more oxygen. 

Hump backed whales were fitted with a radio transmitter and a salt water switch to see how long they could stay underwater. The transmitter broke after a couple of dives because of the enormous pressures at the depths they dived to, but the researchers were able to say “Whatever they are doing, they are not just holding their breath,” because of the great length of time they spent submerged. 

In the 1960s, Johannes Kylstra was doing a lot of experiments with water breathing mammals. Here are a few quotes from his paper in the New Scientist.

“Water-breathing kept the arterial blood fully saturated with oxygen.”

“(The dog) had breathed water for 24 minutes. The animal recovered fully.”

“They extracted about the same amount of oxygen from the water as they normally would have from air.”

 “We have decompressed a liquid-breathing mouse from a pressure of 30 atmospheres to normal atmospheric pressure within three seconds without causing any observable ill effects in the animal. This rate of decompression is equivalent to rising from a depth of 3,000 feet under water to the surface at 700 miles an hour.”

Now the viscosity of water is 36 times greater than that of air and it is often assumed that it would require 36 times as much effort to inhale it, but researchers have found that, because of the turbulence in air, it actually takes less effort, and Kylstra observed, of a dog in one water breathing experiment, that “…its heart rate and respiration were slow but regular.” The dog survived and recovered fully.

Kylstra experimented with both super-oxygenated water and fluorocarbon, which can hold even more dissolved oxygen than water. Interestingly, when using water he observed that the animals breathing a salt solution did better.

The elephant seal is the supreme diving mammal, spending 90% of its time underwater when at sea. While on the surface, the elephant seal’s blood remains severely depleted in haemoglobin oxygen saturation and on land it can often forget to breathe altogether for several minutes at a time. However, when it dives, oxygen saturation suddenly increases to a maximum at around 30 metres, where oxygen partial pressure is equal to that in the atmosphere. The source of the oxygen is unknown.

Blood Oxygen Depletion Is Independent of Dive Function in a Deep Diving Vertebrate, the Northern Elephant Seal

 

Conclusion 

By breathing deeply, but slowly and exhaling vigorously a mature person could extract sufficient oxygen from well aerated sea water to function normally near the surface without any ill effects. Below 30 metres the oxygen partial pressure is the same as that in air at sea level and no special effort would be required. 

Carbon dioxide saturation (hypercapnia) might limit the maximum depth of water breathing dives for humans due to the increased CO2 partial pressure at depth. 

Water breathing would support Terry Turner's case for pelagic as well as demersal aquatic human ancestors.   

G. 

 


Re: Huge List of character differences between chimp and human (uniqueness)

Gareth Morgan
 

I read somewhere that there are a thousand significant physical differences.  Maybe there's a more complete list somewhere.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of Jack D.Barnes <needininfo@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2022 11:05 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Huge List of character differences between chimp and human (uniqueness)
 
Oh yeah, hardly comprehensive, but a good start.  Swimming at least made the list. 

They missed about 200 or 300 good points I reckon.  Long flexible neck, lack of knuckle walking, lumbar differences, brachiating shoulders, non-curved finger and toe bones etc etc etc.

-Jack


On May 1, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Gareth Morgan <garethmorgan@...> wrote:


It is a remarkably comprehensive list

No mention of two of the most immediately obvious differences -- lack of body hair and the longest head hair of any animal. Curious. 

G.

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of Jack D.Barnes <needininfo@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2022 4:43 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: [AAT] Huge List of character differences between chimp and human (uniqueness)
 
All,
I submit to you this excellent paper (link below, pdf attached) from 2005 listing many unique traits of all humans compared to the extent great apes.
It is a remarkably comprehensive list which includes ability to learn to swim.

http://m.genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full.pdf




-Jack



--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group






--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group


Re: Huge List of character differences between chimp and human (uniqueness)

 

Oh yeah, hardly comprehensive, but a good start.  Swimming at least made the list. 

They missed about 200 or 300 good points I reckon.  Long flexible neck, lack of knuckle walking, lumbar differences, brachiating shoulders, non-curved finger and toe bones etc etc etc.

-Jack


On May 1, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Gareth Morgan <garethmorgan@...> wrote:


It is a remarkably comprehensive list

No mention of two of the most immediately obvious differences -- lack of body hair and the longest head hair of any animal. Curious. 

G.

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of Jack D.Barnes <needininfo@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2022 4:43 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: [AAT] Huge List of character differences between chimp and human (uniqueness)
 
All,
I submit to you this excellent paper (link below, pdf attached) from 2005 listing many unique traits of all humans compared to the extent great apes.
It is a remarkably comprehensive list which includes ability to learn to swim.

http://m.genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full.pdf




-Jack



--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group






--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group


Re: Huge List of character differences between chimp and human (uniqueness)

Gareth Morgan
 

It is a remarkably comprehensive list

No mention of two of the most immediately obvious differences -- lack of body hair and the longest head hair of any animal. Curious. 

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of Jack D.Barnes <needininfo@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2022 4:43 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: [AAT] Huge List of character differences between chimp and human (uniqueness)
 
All,
I submit to you this excellent paper (link below, pdf attached) from 2005 listing many unique traits of all humans compared to the extent great apes.
It is a remarkably comprehensive list which includes ability to learn to swim.

http://m.genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full.pdf




-Jack



--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group






List of human traits Swimming, floating, diving

 

Here is a cut and paste of some of the characters from Table #1
Float, dive, swim, eccrine glands, on the list, toys!

This is a partial listing of topics that will appear later at a Web-based “Museum of Comparative Anthropogeny” http://origins.ucsd.edu/gapp1.html.


The List:
Secondary Altriciality Helplessness of the Newborn Prolonged Helplessness of Young Extended Care of Young Childhood
Adolescence
Age at First Reproduction Longevity

REPRODUCTIVITY BIOLOGY
Concealed Ovulation
Virgin Breast Development Female Pituitary Menopause Placentophagy
Female Labia Majora Vaginal Hymen
Baculum (Penis Bone) Sperm Count
Copulatory Plug

EMBRYOLOGY
Early Fetal Wastage/Aneuploidy Hydatiform Molar Pregnancy Umbilical Cord Length

PREGNANCY/PARTURITION
Cephalo-pelvic Disproportion Duration of Labor
Maternal Mortality in Childbirth Pain During Childbirth
Need for Assistance with Childbirth
Neonatal Cephalhematoma

POSTNATAL DEVELOPMENT
Late Closure of Cranial Sutures Duration of Infant Arousal Inconsolable Infant Crying Infant-Caregiver Attunement Maternal-Infant Eye-To-Eye Gaze

ANATOMY
Sagittal Crest of Skull
Brow Ridge
Protuberantia Menti (Chin) Length of Sphenoid Sinus Choroid Plexus Biondi Bodies Inner Ear Canal Orientation Apical Phalangeal Tufts
Age of Pelvic Bone Fusion Bone Cortex Thickness Laryngeal Position Pharyngeal Air Sacs
Ear Lobes
Sexual Body Size Dimorphism Lacrimal Gland Structure
Visible Whites of the Eyes Small/Large Intestine Length Ratio Meningeal Artery Source

BIOMECHANICS
Bipedal Gait
Adductive Thumb Skeletal Muscle Strength Hand-Eye Coordination Fine Motor Coordination

ORGAN PHYSIOLOGY
Aldosterone Response to Posture Salt-Wasting Kidneys
Ability For Sustained Running Voluntary Control of Breathing Ability to Dive Underwater Diving Reflex
Ability to Float/Swim Emotion Lacrimation Salt Content of Tears Olfactory Sense

CELL BIOLOGY
No Differences Are Known?

BIOCHEMISTRY
Placental Alkaline Phosphatase N-Glycolylneuraminic Acid Expression Alpha 2-6-Linked Sialic Acid Expression

ENDOCRINOLOGY
Thyroid Hormone Metabolism

PHARMACOLOGY
Methylation of Inorganic Arsenic

ANATOMIC PATHOLOGY
Cortical Neurofibrillary Tangles

CLINICAL PATHOLOGY
Erythrocyte Sedimentation Rate Serum Alkaline Phosphatase Level RBC and Serum Folate
Serum Vitamin B12/B12 Binding Total Leukocyte Count
Absolute Neutrophil Count Absolute Lymphocyte Count

DENTAL BIOLOGY/DISEASE
Canine Tooth Diastema
Canine Tooth Dysmorphism Tooth Enamel Thickness Retromolar Gap
Third Molar Impaction
Dental Eruption Sequence/Timing

MEDICAL/SURGICAL DISEASES
HIV Progression to AIDS
P. falciparum malaria
Viral Hepatitis B/C Complications Influenza A Infection Severity Incidence of Carcinomas Hemorrhoids
Varicose Veins
Pelvic Phleboliths
Foamy Virus (Spumavirus) Infections Sexually Transmitted Diseases

IMMUNOLOGY
Sialoadhesin on Macrophages

SKIN BIOLOGY AND DISEASE
Eyebrows
Eccrine Sweat Glands Acne Vulgaris Subcutaneous Fat Body Lice

NUTRITION
Frugivory
Carnivory
Aquatic Foods Underground Foods Cooking

NEUROANATOMY
Relative Brain Size
Direct Cortical Projections
Relative Volume of Frontal Cortex Relative Volume of Corpus Callosum Relative Volume of Cerebellum
% of Brain Growth Complete at Birth Rate of Postnatal Brain Growth

NEUROBIOLOGY
Population Distribution of Handedness
Postnatal Dendritic Growth Postnatal Synapse Formation Cortical Synapse Density Cortical Neuron Density Dendrites Per Neuron Synapses Per Neuron
Adult Neurogenesis
Cingulate Cortical Spindle Neurons Finger Tip Sensory Nerve Endings

NEUROCHEMISTRY
Brain Aromatisation of Testosterone Tyrosine Hydroxylase Heterogeneity

MENTAL DISEASE
Schizophrenia Bipolar Psychosis Autism
Suicide

BEHAVIOR
Control of Facial Expressions Planning Ahead
Intentional Deception
Deliberately Delaying Gratification Long-Range Transport of Materials Secondary Tool-Making Mechanical Multi-Tasking
Physical Abuse of the Young Torture
Organized Warfare
Adult Play
Symbolic Play
Abuse of Other Animals Inter-Group Coalition Formation Use of Containers
Care of Infirm and Elderly Grandparenting
Home Base
Control of Fire
Food Preparation
Organized Gathering of Food Domestication of Animals Domestication of Plants Altruistic Punishment Peace-Making
Somnambulism
Mind-Altering Drug Use

COGNITIVE CAPACITY
Declarative Memory Imitative Learning Teaching
Symbolic Representation Awareness of Death Awareness of the Past Awareness of the Future Theory of Mind
Theory of Other Minds Empathy
Numeracy

COMMUNICATION
“Parentese” Sounds
Infant “Protoconversations” Gestural Communication Symbolic Communication Semantics
Grammar and Syntax Recursion
Writing

SOCIAL ORGANIZATION
Institutions
Social Conventions Governments Enforcement Through
Sanctions

CULTURE
Composition of Art Composition of Music Composition of Rhythms Death Rituals
Clothing (Covering of Body Parts)
Rites of Passage Genocide
Competitive Sports Practicing of Skills Physical Modifications of
the Body
Inheritance of Resources
and Status
Rythmic Dance Sculpture
Belief in Supernatural/
Religion
Body Adornment
Childbirth Customs
Sexual Intercourse in Private Gift-Giving
Hospitality
Intertwining (e.g.,
weaving)
Meal Times
Poetry
Property
Construction of Shelters Taboos
Taxonomy of Species Trade
Measurement of Time Weapons
Toys


Downloaded from genome.cshlp.org on May 1, 2022 - Published by Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press
Mining the chimpanzee genome

Table 1. Some phenotypic traits of humans for comparison with those of great apes. A major limitation in translating genomic comparative information into an understanding of “humanness” is that we know relatively little about the basic phenotypic features of the great apes, relative to humans. This table lists topic areas in which there are real or claimed “differences” between humans and the great apes (as a group). A given “difference” listed here could be a suggested gain or loss in humans, with respect to the great apes.

-Jack



--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group


Huge List of character differences between chimp and human (uniqueness)

 

All,
I submit to you this excellent paper (link below, pdf attached) from 2005 listing many unique traits of all humans compared to the extent great apes.
It is a remarkably comprehensive list which includes ability to learn to swim.

http://m.genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full.pdf




-Jack



--
Welcome to the Aquatic Ape Theory Discussion Group

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