Re: Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk


alandarwinvanarsdale
 


On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 12:50 PM Gareth Morgan <garethmorgan@...> wrote:
Is there a difference between external ear exostoses and what we’re talking about?

No. Same thing. It's called external because it's not in the middle ear or inner ear.
 
"Cold water and wind are known to cause exostoses of the external auditory canal."


"The three sections are known as; the inner ear, the middle ear, the outer ear. The inner ear is made up of the cochlea, the auditory nerve and the brain. The middle ear consists of the middle ear bones called the ossicles (malleus, incus, stapes)."

Jim Moore made a big deal of the fact that cold wind can cause exostoses.

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska=odysseysailing.gr@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 8:24 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk
 

Is there a difference between external ear exostoses and what we’re talking about? Does anybody know?

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gareth Morgan
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 5:51 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk

 

ear exostoses “are never found in people who don’t swim frequently”

 

Could be a combination.

 

External auditory exostoses (EAE) growth occurs faster in wind- and kitesurfers than in surfers. 

 

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 5:07 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk

 

In Peter’s first talk shown on Saturday, he said that ear exostoses “are never found in people who don’t swim frequently” (12’40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3VvCYYO6II

 

We cannot really know how much Neanderthals exploited marine resources as most of the shell-midden evidence dates from much later, but there’s plenty of evidence that they did.

 

Neanderthals on the Beach
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0226690

 

Mayoral, E., Díaz-Martínez, I., Duveau, J. et al. Tracking late Pleistocene Neandertals on the Iberian coast. Sci Rep 11, 4103 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-83413-8

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83413-8.pdf

Rhŷs Evans PH. The paranasal sinuses and other enigmas: an aquatic evolutionary theory. J Laryngol Otol. 1992 Mar;106(3):214-25. doi: 10.1017/s0022215100119115. PMID: 1564378

Kennedy, G.E. (1986), The relationship between auditory exostoses and cold water: A latitudinal analysis. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 71: 401-415. https://doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.1330710403

 

Francesca

 

From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of alandarwinvanarsdale
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 4:10 PM
To: AAT@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk

 

Homogeneity would usually not be expected from weather related surfers ear. Clothing and hair styles may have been different, and either sex may have been more active during cold wind. Shell middens which cross the neanderthal to modern transition in Europe contain all the same fauna for neanderthals as for modern humans. The difference is marine resources were much less exploited by neanderthals than by modern humans and the middens are much richer in remains after than before the transition. Large pelagic fish also are found both above and below the transition. 

 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 12:27 PM Gareth Morgan <garethmorgan@...> wrote:

If exotoses were weather only, I think it would be safe to say that we would see homogeneity between the sexes. 

 

Very good point. To be certain though we would need to know more about tonsorial sexual dimorphism among the homininae.

Maybe women wore their hair long for infants to reach easily, which would keep the draught out of their ears, while the guys preferred a kind of mullet to keep the hair out of their faces while knapping flints. 

 



We may never know.

 

G.


From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> on behalf of Jack D.Barnes <needininfo@...>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 7:47 PM
To: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AAT] Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk

 

AVA, 

I think the tens of thousands of ancient shell midden sites in tidal areas from 165,000 years ago in Europe, Asia and Africa is all we need to prove that archaic homo was adept at swimming and foraging for the relatively limitless underwater foods.

 

If exotoses were weather only, I think it would be safe to say that we would see homogeneity between the sexes. 

-Jack

 

 

On Jul 11, 2022, at 10:59 AM, alandarwinvanarsdale <alandarwinvanarsdale@...> wrote:



Ear exotoses also can be caused by cold wind blowing into the ears. I have them for this reason, they can be quite painful. I have taken to using ear muffs it may be neanderthals did not have ear muffs. It is also likely some of them dove. 

 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 7:31 AM fceska_gr via groups.io <f-ceska=odysseysailing.gr@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Erika,

" How could it be explained that males were diving more than women? Why would they? Ama-divers are the other way around, and in Bajau there  is 50/50. If males were diving more - why where the women not diving as much? Women are better insulated with subcutaneous fat... What were the women doing=?"

My thoughts are that the women, being fatter, especially post menopause, formed matriarchal groups (sisterhoods) with grandma looking after the little ones as is the case with many other aquatic and x-aquatic (e.g. elephants) mammals. The females dived and foraged in more shallow (also warmer) waters than the males as they couldn't leave the babies for long. The males, especially after loss of olfaction and with concealed oestrus, needed different ways to approach females for sex. Those males that could bring back the best food offerings from deep waters (e.g. giant fan mussels or clams) proved they were the best divers and thus best providers, establishing a sexual difference between males v females regarding diving modifications. In Homo sapiens, where the above no longer applies, both males and females can and do dive. Neanderthal women, and probably H.erectus females too, may well have been obese, especially after menopause (also loss of bone density), as seen in many Venus figurines, including those dating back half a million years or so.

Francesca

-----Original Message-----
From: AAT@groups.io <AAT@groups.io> On Behalf Of Marc Verhaegen
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 12:46 AM
To: Schagatay, Erika <Erika.Schagatay@...>; aat@groups.io
Subject: Re: [AAT] Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk

Hi Erika, yes, it's curious, but Peter said the Hn women had less ear exostoses than the men.
If ear exostoses only develop slowly (after years?), I wondered:
did the women with small children have to baby-sit?  water too cold for little children, where Hn lived??
did they only dive seasonally, during Summer, in warm waters??

And yes, Hs today don't back-float, but sea-otters do, and Hn diving might have been different from tropical diving Hs today.
PNSs perhaps help surface with the nose up, but I wouldn't exclude back-floating Hn, e.g. for opening mussels etc.

Stephen Munro suggested this diving-cycle:
- back-floating for opening shells & eating,
- exhaling strongly -> sinking backwards, head first,
- squatting at the bottom, collecting shellfish,
- extending the legs to push off & ascend, nose-up.

Apparently, Hn mostly dived in fresh or at least less salt water than
He:
erectus had small PNSs, and much more POS (pachy-osteo-sclerosis).

Hn & He still had platycephaly: the brain-skull was situated behind the eyes & stronlgy lengthened & flattened:
hydrodynamica is very important for fast but also for slow divers.
The naked forehead could then be used for the diving-response?

IMO, we did have a +-pointed head + streamlined body:
nose + facial prognathism + platycephaly + fat body, see my reconstruction of a diving ancestor.

Best   --marc

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51128639

_______


    ------ Origineel bericht ------
    Van: Erika.Schagatay@...
    Aan: m_verhaegen@...; aat@groups.io
    Verzonden: zondag 10 juli 2022 21:05
    Onderwerp: Sv: Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk

           Marc,

   How could it be explained that males were diving more than women? Why would they? Ama-divers are the other way around, and in Bajau there  is 50/50. If males were diving more - why where the women not diving as much? Women are better insulated with subcutaneous fat... What were the women doing=?

   What do you mean with back floating between dives? Noone today dives like that. Heads are not floating if you are on your back, again we don´t wear the lifewesst on our heads. It does reduce the weitht of our heads though, even when over the water. Why do we  need to be light headed?

   Only reason I could see why we need to be not-padded on our foreheads, is that we need our diving response to kick in during diving:
We need to have well heated foreheads between dives, thus no padding.
Also,  when just swimming we need not to insulate our upper heads. As a physiologist, I think for a slow swimmer, thermal insulation was  much more important than hydrodynamics. So it needs to be wherever the water is chilling us. If hydrodynamics was important, we would have a pointed head as a dolphin. I beleive early humans were mainly foragers on the sea floor, not fish hunters like dolphins.

   Nice meeting today,

   Best wishes, Erika


   Erika Schagatay, professor Environmental Physiology Group Dept. of Health Sci., Mid Sweden University House D, 831 25 Östersund, Sweden Mobile phone:+46 70 53 214 23





   Från: Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> Skickat: den 10 juli
2022 15:49 Till: aat@groups.io  Ämne: Re: Peter Rhys-Evans WHAT talk

Hi Algis, thanks a lot for your excellent WHAT-talks!
Peter Rhys-Evans: 74 % of neandertals had ear exostoses, and
males>females:
apparently all neandertal men & many women very frequently dived: at least seasonally.

Paranasal sinuses (PNSs) are what the word says: around the nasal air
entrance:
PNSs hinder deep diving, but H.erectus has small PNSs (salt water).
PNSs became much larger in neandertal & sapiens:
- neandertals dived more often in fresh water,
- they had a diving cycle with back-floating (nose up) between 2 dives.

Why no SC fat in humans frontally?
Probably hydrodynamically there was no place there for SC fat:
most of our fat is where you could expect: at the abdomen & & around the
trunk:
hydrodynamism.

Best & thanks!   --marc  www.whattalks.com








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